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  #121  
Old 01-01-2013, 12:36 AM
hiyabrad hiyabrad is offline
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Love this thread, good for late night chuckles.

Sorry to hear about your now-resolved headache OP. No fun there. Hope you don't think about it every time you pick up that AR. Might be worth the piece of mind to go buy what you wanted and sell what you got and get rid of the bad karma.

I would not do any business with the non-jerk and for sure once you add in the fact he's going out of business - that spells big trouble IMHO.

Having said that, the non-jerk could be circling for the kill:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=666151

I posted on his thread asking if he was a shop and will update if I get a response. Non-jerk is probably reading this thread to see if OP keep his end of the agreement, which he did.

Lastly, good to hear you don't need our business Wes. Way to stereotype Calguns' members!

Last edited by hiyabrad; 01-01-2013 at 12:41 AM..
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  #122  
Old 01-01-2013, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
So your long distance threat from San Diego, Orange County, Modesto, Sacramento, or Redding is not a credible threat. Of course you weren't going to drive down to see me. You never were.

I think I'm gonna make a long trip from Orange County just to see you to spite him. Can't wait to give you my hard earned money!
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  #123  
Old 01-02-2013, 1:19 PM
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So again...Do any of the ffl's in the room have any suggestions as to what a buyer can do to protect themselves from having to go through what the OP went through??
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  #124  
Old 01-02-2013, 1:40 PM
hiyabrad hiyabrad is offline
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So again...Do any of the ffl's in the room have any suggestions as to what a buyer can do to protect themselves from having to go through what the OP went through??
Not an FFL but I think it's obvious, only buy and PPT through a reputable dealer.
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  #125  
Old 01-02-2013, 4:54 PM
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Not to side track this excellent thread. But... Wasn't We The People Firearms just on Doomsday Preppers? Isn't his name Ryan Croft?

Is this the non-jerk? VIDEO

Not that it matters. I was just wondering who the non jerk was...
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  #126  
Old 01-02-2013, 6:36 PM
Tmckinney Tmckinney is offline
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Seems like a breach of contract to me. You had a deal to sell at a given price, paid the money and when it came time, he failed to perfrom. Your damages--assuming you already got a refund--is the additional cost acquire the same rifle some where else. So if the gun was 800 and now you have to pay 1600 your damages are 800.
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  #127  
Old 01-02-2013, 6:51 PM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
I did not assume you were talking to me. I understood you mentioned no names plus I didn't say anything inflammatory on here. I have no guilty conscience.

What I do know is that your vague Internet threats of some random dealer losing business over what they say in the FFL forums is really not that important. I am a little more vocal than other FFLs, so I will educate some of you on how all of this works.

Most FFLs do not like Calguns.net style customers. First, most of them tend to spend way too much time on the Internet searching for the best deal and are quite educated when it comes to products and prices. This isn't a bad thing, I used to be one of these types until I realized I could get guns a whole lot cheaper if I sold them.

So when a Calgunner comes into our shops wanting some unreasonable deal, doesn't get it, and then uses the threat of the "going public" sword to try and persuade a dealer, we would rather just skip that whole mess. Plus most smart Calgunners get guns cheap online and transfer them from cheap kitchen table dealers.

There is nothing wrong with this. I support you in doing what you have to do to be responsible with your money. Again, I am guilty as charged.

What guys who threaten to never give business to FFLs need to understand is your online threats don't mean much. For example, I have a shop in the middle of no where! I am in the boonies. Everyone that lives in distance of me has been into my shop and knows we take great care of people. You won't hear many people complain on Calguns about our store except fjold. So your long distance threat from San Diego, Orange County, Modesto, Sacramento, or Redding is not a credible threat. Of course you weren't going to drive down to see me. You never were.

Second, Calgunners tend to be notorious cheap skates. You are not the customers we want anyway. My best customers are definitely not on Calguns. They are local guys or even guys who travel that come into my store, see something on the wall or see it online, they want me to get it for them, and they do not ask about prices. So I give them good deals and they just keep coming back for more.

And that is really the whole point of this education I am giving you. Think about the worst gun shops out there. There are already numerous threads about how horrible their prices, customer service, and selection are. Yet, they continue to stay in business. If every Calgunner knows they suck, how do they keep thriving?

Answer: there is this whole gigantic world outside of Calguns that do not do their research, do not haggle on prices, and just buy, buy, buy. And they exist even outside of the current panic.

This customer will always exist and as long as they do, your threats of not using an FFL are not that credible. Plus, deep down inside, you are not worth the effort even if you do decide to shop with us so we are actually happy you don't come into the store.

Obviously this might not make me popular with some of you, but it needed to be said. The few FFLs that cruise Calguns are all thinking it and the FFLs not on here stay away because of issues like yours.

Hey if what We the People in Clovis did is true, it isn't cool. People need to know about it. I find value in these threads because I see the mistakes other dealers make and discuss them with my employees. There is also value in avoiding those stores.

However, if you want to base your decision on whether to go to a gun shop based on what they say in the FFL forums, that is cool. You are free to do as you wish. Just don't think it means much to any of the dealers here.

I think it all boils down to control. People want to feel powerful and important. They try to wield their word on the Internet as some sort of sword. I don't expect you to stop trying to use your sword. It has been happening on here forever. I have been pissing people off in these threads forever.

I am still in business. The part I enjoy about all of this is when customers come in and laugh about these threads. My customers know me and know what we provide. So anyone who says they won't use my shop because of my attitude on the FFL forums where I am educating non-FFLs how to deal with FFLs, it doesn't bother me. You were never going to use my shop anyway.

To my regular customers who come into the shop and have been for years. You know you are important to me (even fjold!). To the first time customer that comes in and is treated well, you know you are important to me because I always thank you for your business. To the Calguns haters who have never spent a dime in my store, but aren't going to now because my opinion hurts your feelings, I am sorry you feel that way.
WOW!!!! Well said.

I applaud you on your rant! As a former retail/ internet business owner, i share your thoughts (different industry). Now I wish your shop was closer to Orange Co. I'd be in there tomorrow!!!!
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  #128  
Old 01-02-2013, 6:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jhaselton View Post
Not to side track this excellent thread. But... Wasn't We The People Firearms just on Doomsday Preppers? Isn't his name Ryan Croft?

Is this the non-jerk? VIDEO

Not that it matters. I was just wondering who the non jerk was...
BZZZZ...incorrect.

Wrong Ryan. Wrong last name.

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  #129  
Old 01-02-2013, 7:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ArmedCMT View Post
So again...Do any of the ffl's in the room have any suggestions as to what a buyer can do to protect themselves from having to go through what the OP went through??
you could try buying from a one-man shop, where hopefully with just one person behind the counter, that he could keep track of what is sold and not sold.

that said, realize that Turners sells a ton of firearms a week across 15 stores and mistakes do happen. The ability for a clerk in one store to be able to access inventory in 14 other stores and the warehouse makes it possible for them to sell a firearm that they don't physically have in that store at that moment is a positive (except for the rare occasion when they get it wrong).

I doubt they personally resold the OP's gun because they could get more money for it. My guess is that they got swamped during the frenzy and the inventory got out of sync.
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  #130  
Old 01-07-2013, 12:18 AM
SpiceyTunaRoll SpiceyTunaRoll is offline
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Default I used to shop at We the People with Ryan Cox . . .

This ended up being super long.

SUMMARY OF IT ALL: Based on my experiences and knoweldge, I think it is unlikely that MRS's experience is the result of any purposeful bad actions on the part of Ryan Cox or his staff. However, I could totally see how this screw-up could occur and how it could leave a really bad taste in someone's mouth.

For what it's worth, I have shopped at the store in question many times, and I know both Ryan and John from the store (along with other employees of We the People). I do not have any relationship with any of them, or with the store, other than being a customer. I want to just throw a bit of perspective out based on my experiences and perceptions. I feel a bit like a man's name has been drug into the mud a bit, and while I obviously cannot say for sure (and as you'll see this is not intended to be a glowing defense of anything) I do not think Ryan Cox or his store acted as opportunists in business dealings in general or would make it a practice to screw someone over they had a deal with.

My thoughts in no particular order:

1. Ryan Cox is not a warm and fuzzy person in the shop, and he rarely, if ever smiles or engages in niceties for the sake of being "nice." He is very deadpan and matter of fact, even on a good day, and usually seems a bit annoyed. For a few trips in, I kept trying to read him compared to his employees to try and figure out if he had a chip on his shoulder with me, with life, or if he just came across as *****ly (or a jerk) when he didn't necessarily mean to. After doing business with him a few times, I completely satisfied myself with the fact he is just not a warm guy and he comes across a bit un-enthused about pretty much everything - but who the hell cares, I want him to be fair, give me perspective/advice/answers to my questions about guns, and sell me guns. I don't go to a gun shop to have someone blow sunshine. Screw "nice," just help me with guns. Could he easily be perceived as a jerk, even when he wasn't being one - yes. Does he have the capacity to be a major jerk - I'm sure, but for the reasons I list below I think this could have easily been the perfect storm of factors and his general *****ly persona did him no favors in the way him came across to MRS.

2. A few months back, the shop moved from a small suite in the strip mall it's in, to the much larger corner suite at the junction of the "L" in the strip mall. This move occurred just a short time ago when buying was already probably increased for the coming holidays (and post-election). I do not believe the new location ever got enough organization to be totally up and running the way it probably should have, and logistically I could see room for error in the appearance of the backroom where sold guns were stored (which you could see in to through an open doorway).

3. This shop did not have huge price markups on the items I purchased, or on the vast majority of the inventory it sold (guns/mags). When I offered to pay Ryan cash for ammo in bulk and asked him for a fair deal (my first transaction with him), he gave me a price that was essentially the same as the pre-Newtown price on SGAmmo.com (without the shipping), and he waived the sales tax. This pricing on ammo was repeated on other transactions with no haggling and no B.S. I asked him his price and he offered me amazing deals. Same with guns. Tell him what you want, see if he can get it, get a fair price quote that would be nearly impossible to beat.

4. This shop turned around A TON of mag kits at almost half the price other shops in the are charged. Essentially, Ryan was selling the kits for what people out of state were paying for them pre-Newtown. He was not in the business to gouge - he was in the business to do a fair deal and work volume. For example, standard ("high cap") Glock mags went for $25 as a kit.

5. Ryan's shop built a lot of custom CA legal builds of "scary looking" rifles that I'm sure the CA DOJ didn't love.

6. Ryan's staff were a bunch of young guys. At times, they seemed a bit like the Three Stooges. John was the most sober and calm acting one, and the rest were kind of like a sideshow in the way they interacted. Harmless, not necessarily professional, but knew guns, answered questions, and sold guns. However, could I see that it would be pretty easy for this young staff to screw up paperwork? TOTALLY. To be honest, it's why I dealt directly with Ryan on anything I felt mattered (final price, paperwork, etc.). Staff was actually the "nice" component of the store, just young.

7. Not long ago, Ryan got a really nasty visit from CA DOJ (related to me by the employees, and by the changes in store policy). Based on this visit, the store completely stopped selling all rebuild kits to non-LEO. Additionally, the tone with regard to the "scary looking" rifles was not as aggressive as it had been prior to the DOJ visit. Essentially, the DOJ visit totally cut off the big revenue generators for the store (only shortly after the store underwent an increase in rent for a much larger space).

8. It was openly discussed in the shop that Ryan had to close because the threats he got from the CA DOJ required him to change the inventory he moved, and when that happened he lost the volume and profit that allowed him to stay open. These "naughty" things that he was not overcharging for were his main source of revenue.

9. Add to that, the current gun market and his inability to now not only move his main revenue generators, but just generally keep anything on the shelf at all - the door closing is his choice.

So, all of that to say, Ryan and his staff did not combine to provide highly professional or overly sweet customer service. However, they knew guns, charged very fair prices, answered gun questions, and found stuff for you that you wanted to buy without adding a huge markup. The type of shop that could come off wrong - yes. The type of shop that could mess up paperwork in a very odd way - I'm sure. Ryan as the type of guy that would purposely sell a gun he already sold to make a quick buck - not likely based on my experience. I just don't think that's the kind of guy he is or the shop he ran. I could easily, however, see him coming across as a jerk if I was the customer on the receiving end of this ordeal. If he was keeping his doors open, I could see him trying to do more to make it right - but, as a man who probably pretty much feels like his business is being ripped from him, I think he is just kind of trying to survive closing things down.

On a related note - any Fresno area people have recommendations on gun shops?
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  #131  
Old 01-07-2013, 3:10 AM
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^^^^

selling rebuild kits is legal and selling so called black rifles is also legal.

What could the CDOJ really do about it?
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  #132  
Old 01-07-2013, 5:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Oceanbob View Post
^^^^

selling rebuild kits is legal and selling so called black rifles is also legal.

What could the CDOJ really do about it?
Nothing. Ryan should have contacted CGF. If he was bullied into giving up his business, that is his fault. If he wants to make it right, he just needs to contact us and we will educate him and give him confidence that DOJ FUD is just that.

Personally, I don't buy any of this DOJ FUD nonsense. I think gun stores like to just make up excuses for whatever they are doing. Just my opinion.
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  #133  
Old 01-07-2013, 7:09 AM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Nothing. Ryan should have contacted CGF. If he was bullied into giving up his business, that is his fault. If he wants to make it right, he just needs to contact us and we will educate him and give him confidence that DOJ FUD is just that.

Personally, I don't buy any of this DOJ FUD nonsense. I think gun stores like to just make up excuses for whatever they are doing. Just my opinion.
Thanks for the honest answer. Wish I lived up your way; I would be a good customer for you..

All the best in the coming storm.
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  #134  
Old 01-09-2013, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by geeknow View Post
If you have a DROS number, then ownership of that gun has been transferred to you.

Explain to the ffl that, if he doesn't immediately produce either your gun, or another exactly like it, you'll file a stolen gun report naming him and his license as the suspect.

If your gun does not immediately appear, go to local LE and file. Then contact DOJ.

That's a serious "mistake" on his part.

Licenses have been lost for much less.
No, if a DROS # has been issued you have applied to transfer. Untill you take posetion and it is logged out to you, it is the property of the store.

Does not make this OK... I would be super pissed.
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