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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 01-07-2013, 6:13 AM
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Originally Posted by vanhahner444@hotmail.com View Post


Only thing missing is the Wanted: Dead or Alive... With a picture of a politician.
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  #82  
Old 01-07-2013, 7:32 AM
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
Oh. This sounds suspiciously like an endorsement of plans for abduction or false imprisonment of troublemakers. Without a legal justification to arrest someone, this is just asking for a lawsuit regardless of whether the trouble maker is a someone who refuses to leave the camo at home or a Brady dissenter. Get a few more people on board with this and you can collect a conspiracy charge to boot.
I agree. But we will need people carrying video camara's so that patchouli oil
shenanigans are recorded and tactics exposed.
A person who makes a citizen's arrest could risk exposing him or herself to possible lawsuits or criminal charges – such as charges of impersonating a police officer, false imprisonment, kidnapping, or wrongful arrest – if the wrong person is apprehended or a suspect's civil rights are violated.
This is especially true when police forces are attempting to determine who an aggressor is.
The level of responsibility that a person performing a citizen's arrest may bear depends on the jurisdiction.
The reason I also suggest people calling in sick to work and pulling kids out of school is that the results of this action will be felt beyond the Sac protest.
In other words if my servers or ATMs go down, theyare not going to be serviced. If they go down, they stay down or are not repaired that day!
My son's school will not receive money for him not being in school that day from the state. Hit them where it hurts, in the wallet.
No justice - No peace
I'm trying to go TFH or to the extream, but making people aware this is
a hugh national issue. I'm hoping that the crew from ASSULTED will be at the march to film for the upcoming documentary!
-g
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  #83  
Old 01-07-2013, 7:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Tronite View Post
Sanchanim, here's the contact info from his post announcing his radio show:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<
California GunTalk is for Us, the gun owner and a place were we can talk and discuss all the California gun topics. Please tune in if you can. If your not in the Santa Cruz / San Fran area, you can tune in live at KSCO.com. If your so inclined to chime in during the show you can call in at 831.479.1080 or send a email to wes@californiaguntalk.com

Also would love to hear what topics in the future that people would be interested in.

Wes Host
Santa Cruz Armory &
Host of California GunTalk
<<<<<<<<<<<<<
The show's guests this Wednesday night may have a comment on it, as well.
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  #84  
Old 01-07-2013, 8:16 AM
vanhahner444@hotmail.com vanhahner444@hotmail.com is offline
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A reminder to all"


Concerning assault weapons and high capacity magazines and curtailing their use, I would like to remind you of their purpose.

The purpose of having citizens armed with paramilitary weapons is to allow them to engage in paramilitary actions, for you see, there is no legitimate exception to the Second Amendment for military-style weapons, because military-style weapons are precisely what the Second Amendment guarantees in opposing enemies foreign and domestic and against disorder and tyranny within our country.
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  #85  
Old 01-07-2013, 8:33 AM
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
Oh. This sounds suspiciously like an endorsement of plans for abduction or false imprisonment of troublemakers. Without a legal justification to arrest someone, this is just asking for a lawsuit regardless of whether the trouble maker is a someone who refuses to leave the camo at home or a Brady dissenter. Get a few more people on board with this and you can collect a conspiracy charge to boot.
LMAO I tend to agree.
Having said that, if there are any Brady Bunch folks who attend they will have a chance to speak their peace.
I am all for civil discourse on the issue. Believe me I will have bulleted point to refute anything they might come up with, and who knows it might be fun!
Being able to refute their arguments with fact and case law will simply make them look like hysterical loons.
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  #86  
Old 01-07-2013, 8:38 AM
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Originally Posted by otteray View Post
The show's guests this Wednesday night may have a comment on it, as well.
Well you better believe I will have something to say about it! Yours truly will be a featured guest speaker on Wednesday this week and next running up to the rally.
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  #87  
Old 01-07-2013, 9:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Sanchanim View Post
We are trying.. If anyone knows anyone please let me know. I am not as well connected as I would like.
Local radio Talk Show hosts Armstrong and Getty are great 2A supporters, and have turned out as guest speakers at many Capitol rally's. Talk 650, KSTE contact page of their web site: http://armstrongandgetty.talk910.com/pages/contact.html
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  #88  
Old 01-07-2013, 9:27 AM
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By the way, have you checked to see if a rally permit is necessary? http://capitolmuseum.ca.gov/detail.a...&content3=1692
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  #89  
Old 01-07-2013, 9:29 AM
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Originally Posted by smallshot13 View Post
Local radio Talk Show hosts Armstrong and Getty are great 2A supporters, and have turned out as guest speakers at many Capitol rally's. Talk 650, KSTE contact page of their web site: http://armstrongandgetty.talk910.com/pages/contact.html
I will follow up with them as well. Thank you for the information.
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  #90  
Old 01-07-2013, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Sanchanim View Post
I have updated my original post.
NO CC or OC NO AIRSOFT or OTHER weapons that could be seen as a potential threat.
If I need to repeat it I will.
I would come, but I will not stand out there an obvious target for some anti gun whacko that would love to start shooting to prove a point. If I can't have a gun with me, I won't go. I am not going to be a victim.

You are asking for trouble if you make this a gun free assembly. If you make it known you are carrying, then no one will start any problems.
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  #91  
Old 01-07-2013, 12:05 PM
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Facebook link is not working..... I posted this on The Refuge Forums, and people said it's not working. Could someone please help with this?

Thanks.
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  #92  
Old 01-07-2013, 12:25 PM
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I'll see you on the 19th...

2Fowl
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  #93  
Old 01-07-2013, 1:00 PM
vanhahner444@hotmail.com vanhahner444@hotmail.com is offline
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Sanchanim;

Today I gave out the Sacramento flyers to my local gun shops in my area and was pleased by their responses. One of the owners said as he shook my hand,
"Thank you so much, somebody is finally doing something for gun rights!" another said, "I just heard about this on the internet, you bet I will display this!"



On another note, I saw this statement and thought it was worth repeating.

"The Bill of Rights is the collective name for the first ten amendments to the United States Constitution. These limitations serve to protect the natural rights of liberty and property. They guarantee a number of personal freedoms, like freedom of speech and religion and the right to assemble , but if you remove or limit the Second Amendment to be noneffective, then all other amendments become null and void, simply because “We the People” will lose our power of enforcement when they too are taken away."
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  #94  
Old 01-07-2013, 1:49 PM
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Originally Posted by fortdick View Post
I would come, but I will not stand out there an obvious target for some anti gun whacko that would love to start shooting to prove a point. If I can't have a gun with me, I won't go. I am not going to be a victim.

You are asking for trouble if you make this a gun free assembly. If you make it known you are carrying, then no one will start any problems.
If you have a CCW, please contact the capital CHP or Sacramento PD. If it is verified that within capital park you are ok to carry, I don't mind. My only concern is that capital park and or the capital it's self is a gun free zone. So in that instance I would hate for there to be an incident where someone is detained because of it.
Please do post your findings, as far as I am concerned if it is legal it is ok by me!
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  #95  
Old 01-07-2013, 1:51 PM
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Originally Posted by vanhahner444@hotmail.com View Post
Sanchanim;

Today I gave out the Sacramento flyers to my local gun shops in my area and was pleased by their responses. One of the owners said as he shook my hand,
"Thank you so much, somebody is finally doing something for gun rights!" another said, "I just heard about this on the internet, you bet I will display this!"



On another note, I saw this statement and thought it was worth repeating.

"The Bill of Rights is the collective name for the first ten amendments to the United States Constitution. These limitations serve to protect the natural rights of liberty and property. They guarantee a number of personal freedoms, like freedom of speech and religion and the right to assemble , but if you remove or limit the Second Amendment to be noneffective, then all other amendments become null and void, simply because “We the People” will lose our power of enforcement when they too are taken away."
Thanks for the update, and I love the quote! Do we have source as to where that is from?
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  #96  
Old 01-07-2013, 1:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Fowl View Post
Facebook link is not working..... I posted this on The Refuge Forums, and people said it's not working. Could someone please help with this?

Thanks.
Try this link then go to the events section!
https://www.facebook.com/GunControlMoreCrime
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  #97  
Old 01-07-2013, 2:03 PM
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Am I the only one who sees the irony in attending a 2A rights protest unarmed? Before you start, yes I understand the possible implications, "if everyone was armed...laws were written....blah...blahh." It just boggles my mind to think that essentially, we've already lost our 2A right for it's intended purpose. To oppose a tyrannical governement.
Makes me wonder "What Would Thomas Jefferson Do?" WWTJD.
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  #98  
Old 01-07-2013, 2:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Blake760 View Post
Am I the only one who sees the irony in attending a 2A rights protest unarmed? Before you start, yes I understand the possible implications, "if everyone was armed...laws were written....blah...blahh." It just boggles my mind to think that essentially, we've already lost our 2A right for it's intended purpose. To oppose a tyrannical governement.
Makes me wonder "What Would Thomas Jefferson Do?" WWTJD.
Ya but unfortunately we don't want to give the antis any more ammo to use against us.

Think of this like getting a new stray dog. You don't want to just charge at him and give him a big bear hug, your going to get bit. You need to let him sniff your had for a bit then pet him on the head.

We show up in full tac gear, rifles in hand, well scare off the people we need to bring to our side. However we show up, look and act like normal people here to educate and voice our opinion, we will win over a lot more people.

Last edited by Dantedamean; 01-07-2013 at 3:00 PM..
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  #99  
Old 01-07-2013, 3:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Blake760 View Post
Am I the only one who sees the irony in attending a 2A rights protest unarmed? Before you start, yes I understand the possible implications, "if everyone was armed...laws were written....blah...blahh." It just boggles my mind to think that essentially, we've already lost our 2A right for it's intended purpose. To oppose a tyrannical governement.
Makes me wonder "What Would Thomas Jefferson Do?" WWTJD.
@Blake.
My main concern since this is not Idaho or something is that CCW within capital park area might be illegal. That being said I do not have confirmation.
I would also hate for our participants to be harassed because a disgruntle LEO said someone was printing, even though they may not have.
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  #100  
Old 01-07-2013, 3:12 PM
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I just called the CHP. they have ultimate authority for the area.

He is going to call me back tomorrow in regards to possesing a firearm during the protest. he said there were some laws that took effect Jan 1st that he needs to check on.

He said typically however firearms are not allowed INSIDE of the building except for law enforcement of course. but outside the building it is not a problem. however because this is a peacful protest and a permit is involved he just needed to verify that there are no issues with CCW's holders. He agreed having a peacful Pro 2A event but not bringing your firearm if you are legal to bring it does not mesh.

The permit is free and can be downloaded from the web site. He said it just needs to be filled out and emailed to him.

A really nice guy, he said he has sort of heard of this, he asked me the date and I told him that it was set for Jan 19th which is a Saturday but there was a question as to if it should be held during the week. I agreed and recommended we hold it during the week. he said we will get a lot more attention if we do it during the week during business hours.


I took it upon myself to make this call, however too many chiefs is not a good thing. So whoever is running this let me know how involved you want me. I can handle the permit issue, filling out, submitting it. making phone calls to the local law enforcement offices to ensure they are aware and kind of smooth the road a little you might say.

I feel the more the LEO's are aware and involved the more support we can get from them.
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  #101  
Old 01-07-2013, 3:27 PM
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I just called the CHP. they have ultimate authority for the area.

He is going to call me back tomorrow in regards to possesing a firearm during the protest. he said there were some laws that took effect Jan 1st that he needs to check on.

He said typically however firearms are not allowed INSIDE of the building except for law enforcement of course. but outside the building it is not a problem. however because this is a peacful protest and a permit is involved he just needed to verify that there are no issues with CCW's holders. He agreed having a peacful Pro 2A event but not bringing your firearm if you are legal to bring it does not mesh.

The permit is free and can be downloaded from the web site. He said it just needs to be filled out and emailed to him.

A really nice guy, he said he has sort of heard of this, he asked me the date and I told him that it was set for Jan 19th which is a Saturday but there was a question as to if it should be held during the week. I agreed and recommended we hold it during the week. he said we will get a lot more attention if we do it during the week during business hours.


I took it upon myself to make this call, however too many chiefs is not a good thing. So whoever is running this let me know how involved you want me. I can handle the permit issue, filling out, submitting it. making phone calls to the local law enforcement offices to ensure they are aware and kind of smooth the road a little you might say.

I feel the more the LEO's are aware and involved the more support we can get from them.
That would be me... If you have time to do this that would be awesome. I am busy with PR at the moment and trying to get the word out. So far the response has been positive!
You can email me at dsilver668@gmail.com
I have bowling tonight so probably won't get back to you until later, but please if you can that would help a TON!!!
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  #102  
Old 01-07-2013, 4:17 PM
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That would be me... If you have time to do this that would be awesome. I am busy with PR at the moment and trying to get the word out. So far the response has been positive!
You can email me at dsilver668@gmail.com
I have bowling tonight so probably won't get back to you until later, but please if you can that would help a TON!!!
Ok. i will handle getting the permit and coordinating with law enforcement. When i find out the scoop on the ltc I will pass it on here and email you.

My email address is thrasherfox@gmail.com

I need to get flyers and start passing them out around my area (kings county)
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  #103  
Old 01-07-2013, 6:50 PM
vanhahner444@hotmail.com vanhahner444@hotmail.com is offline
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Sanchanim:

Since we already have the flyers for the 19th and it will be a Saturday, we might be able to get a California pro gun legislator as one of many guest speakers ?

Who do we have that Calguns can recommend ?
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  #104  
Old 01-07-2013, 7:03 PM
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Anyone attending this should keep a look out for agent provocateurs, these are undercover cops that make peaceful protest become violent.
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  #105  
Old 01-07-2013, 7:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanhahner444@hotmail.com View Post
Sanchanim:

Since we already have the flyers for the 19th and it will be a Saturday, we might be able to get a California pro gun legislator as one of many guest speakers ?

Who do we have that Calguns can recommend ?
Speakers? Meaning you will have a podium, microphone, and a sound system with an operator so everyone can hear them?

And how many guest speakers do you already have scheduled, with just 12 days to organize their sequence and time, review the content of their speech, and notify media?
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  #106  
Old 01-07-2013, 7:12 PM
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This has extremely limited upside and nearly unlimited downside.

If you were to get on a plane and do this in Washington DC it *might* have some value. Marching on Sacramento is unlikely to create anything but b-roll that anti-gun politicians will get local TV affiliates to use against us.

Instead you should show up on a day the assembly and senate are in session, wear a suit and tie or equivalent female attire, and demand to meet with your representatives (who in many places in California despise you.)

Same effort, much better outcomes.

-Gene
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  #107  
Old 01-07-2013, 9:43 PM
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This has extremely limited upside and nearly unlimited downside.

If you were to get on a plane and do this in Washington DC it *might* have some value. Marching on Sacramento is unlikely to create anything but b-roll that anti-gun politicians will get local TV affiliates to use against us.

Instead you should show up on a day the assembly and senate are in session, wear a suit and tie or equivalent female attire, and demand to meet with your representatives (who in many places in California despise you.)

Same effort, much better outcomes.

-Gene
We have considered both options. There is another protest planned for mid week as well. This one was a compromise. We are working to get media notified and involved. You are correct, there is plenty of down side to everything, just look how they tore into the NRA.
The upside is we are starting to do something. We seem to be growing in strength everyday. As far a dress code yes I will be dressed for business.
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  #108  
Old 01-07-2013, 9:47 PM
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Speakers? Meaning you will have a podium, microphone, and a sound system with an operator so everyone can hear them?

And how many guest speakers do you already have scheduled, with just 12 days to organize their sequence and time, review the content of their speech, and notify media?
I have one at the moment and working on a few others. We want to convey a constant message, and get some coverage. The 19th is gun appreciation day as well so this can fit in as part of it.
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  #109  
Old 01-07-2013, 10:03 PM
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@Gene, I wish we could have some sort of million man march on DC. Yes it would make an impression, but for all of us to sit in our homes and wait for them to come and take our property is exactly what they want us to do.
With the legislation they are trying to ram through at the state and local level, not doing anything because we might screw up means they win. Yes there are down sides, but we are not a bunch of camo clad nut jobs dancing around our AR's! We are normal everyday citizens.
CalGuns has been at the forefront of fighting the battle in the golden state, and it has been one we have been continuing to fight. Compared to many other states we behind the eight ball. With a 2/3 democratic congress due up the chance of us seeing a renewed push on citizen disarmament is enormous.
Believe me I am the last person to be like Ted Nugent and have an NRAgasim right there in front of the cameras. We need to have intelligent civil discourse on the facts, and repeat those facts as they dismantle the the antis logic.
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:46 PM
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The open carry folks chose not to take advice. Twice. Two bills later.

This isn't that bad, but I'm saying that it doesn't have the ingredients needed for success.

Shooting oneself in the foot is also "doing something."

-Gene
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  #111  
Old 01-08-2013, 12:08 AM
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First, I admire your drive to do something. Just please be very careful and do your homework. Some of the people popping-off on this thread about: not taking part unless they can CCW, that taking part without CCWing is asking for trouble, about wearing empty holsters, etc. etc. give me grave concern that such an event might well do more harm than good. Just look at your poster. As designed it will downright scare and antagonize people. Whoever designed it just doesn't understand public relations.

In any event good luck to you all and godspeed.
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  #112  
Old 01-08-2013, 7:39 AM
Sanchanim Sanchanim is offline
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Originally Posted by Excelsior View Post
First, I admire your drive to do something. Just please be very careful and do your homework. Some of the people popping-off on this thread about: not taking part unless they can CCW, that taking part without CCWing is asking for trouble, about wearing empty holsters, etc. etc. give me grave concern that such an event might well do more harm than good. Just look at your poster. As designed it will downright scare and antagonize people. Whoever designed it just doesn't understand public relations.

In any event good luck to you all and godspeed.
Ha actually I designed it. I was messing around with ideas, and the group liked it. Yes I get the whole gun thing... Then again I am not trying to cater to folks who would be afraid of that type of symbol anyways. This isn't about attracting Hopolops it is about attracting people of the gun. As far as CCW it is like I said, if it is legal and you have a permit fine, you are CCW so I won't even know it is there right???
The empty holster thing.. That is a non aggressive symbol of disarmament. People in other states can carry, but why can't we? We aren't waving rifles in the air, or anything crazy. It is a legal and personal choice.
We are attempting to get more guest speakers. We want to put intelligent thought into this rally. This isn't going to be a bunch of sound byte slogans being shouted for four hours. I emailed CalGuns to see if any of them may wish to speak. Yes I know it is a Saturday, but any news coverage is news coverage. It is a start and I personally want the message to be delivered properly to the people. Not just us, but to California citizens in general.

@ Gene, yes I know you can shoot yourself in the foot.
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Old 01-08-2013, 8:34 AM
vanhahner444@hotmail.com vanhahner444@hotmail.com is offline
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Originally Posted by Excelsior View Post
Just look at your poster. As designed it will downright scare and antagonize people. Whoever designed it just doesn't understand public relations.

In any event good luck to you all and godspeed.
Like any good book, literary publishers will tell you that the first page must have a "hook", something that will snag the reader's attention into turning the next page.
Sanchanim flyer is targeted for grabbing the attention of gun owners, posting anything less might have the same effect as hanging a flyer for a garage sale.

If you look at 90 percent the retail gun magazines on the rack, they will usually sport some type of a AR configuration on the cover (can you guess why?). Now if the whole AR thing scares you then you really need to consider what this protest is all about, because the main focus will be about the government taking away our Assault weapon and high capacity magazines and anything else that looks evil on a nation wide scale.
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Old 01-08-2013, 8:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Sanchanim View Post
Ha actually I designed it. I was messing around with ideas, and the group liked it. Yes I get the whole gun thing... Then again I am not trying to cater to folks who would be afraid of that type of symbol anyways. This isn't about attracting Hopolops it is about attracting people of the gun. As far as CCW it is like I said, if it is legal and you have a permit fine, you are CCW so I won't even know it is there right???
The empty holster thing.. That is a non aggressive symbol of disarmament. People in other states can carry, but why can't we? We aren't waving rifles in the air, or anything crazy. It is a legal and personal choice.
We are attempting to get more guest speakers. We want to put intelligent thought into this rally. This isn't going to be a bunch of sound byte slogans being shouted for four hours. I emailed CalGuns to see if any of them may wish to speak. Yes I know it is a Saturday, but any news coverage is news coverage. It is a start and I personally want the message to be delivered properly to the people. Not just us, but to California citizens in general.

@ Gene, yes I know you can shoot yourself in the foot.
I have concluded the following;

1) You are so focused on your goals, you will not listen objectively to sound advice. (Not only from the Chairman of the Calguns Foundation, but from one of the 'open carry' people that sees and shares his reasoning.)
2) You are so enamoured with your plan, you do not recognize the faults of how it is being marketed to the general public or the gaps between your abilities and the necessary elements of making something like this a sucess.


There is nothing that we can do or say to convince you otherwise. All we can do is observe. And when it is done, and the sound bites and gun owner stereotypes are pumped out there in the media, our analysis will be precisely the same and nothing will have been gained aside from a social interest blurb in the newspaper mocking gunowners.
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Old 01-08-2013, 8:54 AM
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Originally Posted by vanhahner444@hotmail.com View Post
Like any good book, literary publishers will tell you that the first page must have a "hook", something that will snag the reader's attention into turning the next page.
Sanchanim flyer is targeted for grabbing the attention of gun owners, posting anything less might have the same effect as hanging a flyer for a garage sale.

If you look at 90 percent the retail gun magazines on the rack, they will usually sport some type of a AR configuration on the cover (can you guess why?). Now if the whole AR thing scares you then you really need to consider what this protest is all about, because the main focus will be about the government taking away our Assault weapon and high capacity magazines and anything else that looks evil on a nation wide scale.
So what you are saying is, that the design is intended to only appeal to those who are already gunowners or like the appearance of firearms...instead of the general public who might have an interest in civil rights - people who while not gun owners themselves, could see why gun owners might be concerned about the encroachment on self-determination, the right to self defense...

That is why the design fails... you dont know who you are appealing to, or even why you should be appealing to them.
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Old 01-08-2013, 8:54 AM
vanhahner444@hotmail.com vanhahner444@hotmail.com is offline
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hoffmang:

I know where you are coming from and I wish that you or Calguns would of step forward sooner in organizing a rally in Sacramento, but the fact is, that time is running out. Other pro gun rally's have already been organized in their states across the land, are we to wait till some "responsible" organization steps forward or just hope that the emails will be enough ?

We need this, if for anything else, that the voice of the people might be heard !
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Old 01-08-2013, 9:03 AM
Sanchanim Sanchanim is offline
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Originally Posted by vanhahner444@hotmail.com View Post
Like any good book, literary publishers will tell you that the first page must have a "hook", something that will snag the reader's attention into turning the next page.
Sanchanim flyer is targeted for grabbing the attention of gun owners, posting anything less might have the same effect as hanging a flyer for a garage sale.

If you look at 90 percent the retail gun magazines on the rack, they will usually sport some type of a AR configuration on the cover (can you guess why?). Now if the whole AR thing scares you then you really need to consider what this protest is all about, because the main focus will be about the government taking away our Assault weapon and high capacity magazines and anything else that looks evil on a nation wide scale.
Originally I wanted DiFi and Obama in Nazi SS uniforms, which is out of the play book from the JPFO but I thought that was a little overboard.
See I compromised!
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Old 01-08-2013, 9:08 AM
vanhahner444@hotmail.com vanhahner444@hotmail.com is offline
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
So what you are saying is, that the design is intended to only appeal to those who are already gunowners
.......and the one's willing to fight for them !
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Old 01-08-2013, 9:16 AM
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I have not read all of the posts in this thread.
Vanhahner444@hotmail.com, While I hope you mean well and your intentions genuine
on this urgent matter I'll ask the question that I'm not sure anyone has asked!
Who are you and with so few posts here on CG's why should the CG crowd 2A crowd buy into this lastminute unorganized protest/march? I salute you coming forward and I'm not saying your an anti Confederate, but we've had our share of trolls and moles.
I know it puts me on the fence in these turbulent times. Please understand where I'm coming from.
I'm not on Facebook or Twitter and can looking into or research someone's life and intrests.
-g
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Old 01-08-2013, 9:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Sanchanim View Post
Originally I wanted DiFi and Obama in Nazi SS uniforms, which is out of the play book from the JPFO but I thought that was a little overboard.
See I compromised!
Substituting one extreme image for another is not compromise. Neither appeals to the kinds of people that can actually help gun owners in California. (Not that you would know who they might be anyway.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanhahner444@hotmail.com View Post
.......and the one's willing to fight for them !
Clever edit. You managed to crop out the meat of my comment. Do you really think that gunowners alone are sufficient to fight this battle when the state legislature is dominated with a 2/3rd democrat majority? Are they the only ones who will hear our call? You dont know, because you didnt try to connect with anyone else.
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Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Sometimes the law places the whole apparatus of judges, police, prisons and gendarmes at the service of the plunderers, and treats the victim -- when he defends himself -- as a criminal. Bastiat

“Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen.” Friedrich Nietzsche
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