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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #1  
Old 01-08-2013, 10:07 AM
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Davidwhitewolf Davidwhitewolf is offline
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Default AAR: LMS Defense Shotgun Clinic, San Jose, Sunday January 6, 2013

Just a quick note about this fantastic one-day class!

Class: LMS Defense Shotgun Clinic
Instructor: Josh Jackson + 2 staff
Cost: $200.00
Date: January 6, 2013
Hours: 8:30am-4:30pm on Sunday
Location: Metcalf Shooting Range in San Jose, CA
Students: 11

Ammo used: 150 rounds birdshot, 50 rounds 00 buck, 20 rounds slug


***Here's a video of one of the drills!


***Some photos here.

Preliminaries: Lisa Jackson made the signup process smooth and easy, even for last-minute attendees like me and my buddy Porus. (My wife was scheduled to go, but decided that she'd rather watch the playoffs than play in the rain and mud. She missed out!)

Onsite: Instructor Josh Jackson and his crew were professional, safety-conscious, and very attentive to students' needs. No complaints here. With eleven students and three instructors, one-on-one corrections and suggestions were easily made.

We had a broad range of shotgun experience among the students, from beginner to expert. As Tam has said, one generally looks around during the opening strings of fire in a class to see if "That Guy" has shown up, and in this case I'm afraid "That Guy" was me and my buddy. We were absolute newbies with my Benelli Nova Pumps, and neither of us had ever taken a shotgun class before. Josh admitted that he wasn't able to get as much done by the end of class as he'd intended because *some folks* needed some extra drills on basic reload manipulation and the like. My apologies, fellow students!

That being said, we covered a lot of territory in the hours available: patterning at various ranges with birdshot and buck, slugs at various ranges out to 100 yards, skipping buckshot, topping-off drills, positional shooting including wet-gravel prone, slug-selection drills, movement, shooting on the move, and innovative and challenging combinations of some of the above. Federal Flight Control as the poor man's Vang Comp was discussed, as well as the relative effectiveness of each. There were some Vang Comp guns present, and it was fun for me to watch them in action. Shotguns in attendance ranged from basic and tricked-out 870 pumps to a variety of semi-autos. The instructors were impressed by one particular Mossberg but I failed to note which one. Perhaps somebody can chime in on that point.

I was pleased to learn some things about my Benelli Novas that I would not have learned but for the class; I learned a LOT about what I need to do to become as effective with a shotgun for defense as I can be.

This was my second LMS Defense class, and my first with Josh Jackson and his crew. I cannot recommend this class and this instructor highly enough. My wife and I will be signing up for several LMS classes with Josh in 2013.
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Last edited by Davidwhitewolf; 01-08-2013 at 12:23 PM.. Reason: Added some basic class details.
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Old 01-08-2013, 7:59 PM
chd chd is offline
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I was a fellow student in the same class. The above review matches my opinion.

Signup was incredibly simple, a buddy signed me up for the class and the next day Lisa had called for payment confirmation. A single 3 minute phone call and I was dialed.

Class began promptly at 8:30 with introductions, safety briefings and so forth. Once that was taken care of we began to pattern which personally was a huge benefit to me.
I purchased a Benelli M2 months before the class and this was my first opportunity to run it and, I ran it hard. I modified the benelli slightly after I got it by putting a +6 tube on the end of the magazine.

After figuring out 00 buck spread we moved to reload drills. With the +6 tube the drills were a little easier on me but it really laid down the importance of the fact that if you're not shooting, you're reloading. These drills really pounded that idea into your head.

When we started firing slugs I found that at 50 yards I need a pretty large holdover. At 75 yards I couldn't hit the steel so that's my homework.

Overall I found the class very valuable. Being my first I'm glad I chose the shotgun to start because it is a complicated firearm. Taking the class debunked any myths and reaffirmed rumors that I've heard in the past. I'm looking forward to taking the next class in the series to improve speed and accuracy further.

Recommendations to future students looking to take the class:
  • Bring lots of ammo, if you can afford it, double the requirements!
  • Bring something to carry the shells around with you while on the line! I threw shells in my pockets during the first quarter of the class and it sucked! One of the instructors had extra gear and was kind enough to let me borrow it. (Thank you!!)
  • Be prepared to get a little dirty!
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  #3  
Old 01-09-2013, 12:27 PM
Josh Jackson Josh Jackson is offline
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On 1/6/13 LMS Defense hosted our 1 Day Shotgun Clinic at Metcalf Range in San Jose. There were 11 students with a variety or skills levels and equipment. For this class we brought 3 staff members, Josh Jackson, Ralph Morden and Scott Thompson. Ralph is going to be helping us with our Bay Area classes and Scott is assisting us as an Range Safety Officer.

WEATHER:
January classes are always a roll of the dice and this class was no exception. The day started out with a light mist and went from misting to heavy rain and blessed us with some occasional breaks but no sunshine.

GUNS AND GEAR:
There were a wide variety shotguns present at the class ranging from stock Remington 87's to well appointed Benelli competition guns. The shining star in the class at least for me was a new Mossberg 930. I had not given purchasing a new shotgun much thought but the 930 is pretty impressive. If feels good in the hand and ran flawlessly throughout the course.

CLASS OVERVIEW:
The previous posts covered things pretty well. A discussion of aftermarket additions to a defensive shotgun started the class and the live fire portion started shortly thereafter with patterning of the shotguns using 00 buckshot at a variety of defensive ranges. This is always an eye opener for students to learn what they can and cannot accomplish with a shotgun for home defense and how their selected ammunition performs in their gun. The patterning process also gives students a chance to see the same ammunition fired from two shotguns of the same make and model and see how the performance varies.

A variety of drills were used to teach loading methods. Multiple targets, turns, positional shooting and shooting on the move was taught as well. A short movement course of fire requiring some on the fly problem solving was fired. Students were introduced to slugs and shot them at a variety of distances to determine hold overs and accuracy.

This was a great class and Metcalf Range was once again a great venue. It was mentioned in one of the previous posts that we didn't cover all of the material that I had hoped to get to during the class. There were a variety of factors that led to this. range time at Metcalf is a little shorter than at some of the other ranges that we use, the weather made things a little slippery and messy too. We did have a variety of skill levels in the class but overall everyone progressed fine and did great.

Thanks again to all who came to the class and we look forward to seeing you all at the range soon.
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LMS Defense Inc.
Cell: (530)403-9420
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  #4  
Old 01-09-2013, 12:39 PM
Josh Jackson Josh Jackson is offline
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CHD stated in his post to bring lots of ammo. I agree with what he said but I would like to expand on it just a little. Ammunition is expensive but so is training. There is nothing worse then getting distracted during the class that you are taking because you are concentrating on managing your ammo so you don't run out and what happens is you end up missing out on the material you paid to learn. I've been there.

As a rule when I take a class as a student I try to bring about 20 to 25% over what ammunition the class calls for. This allows me to shoot extra drills if there is something that I want to work on as well as work in extra non standard responses and the like for added training value. In the event that I am running short on ammo I may just fire one or two less rounds on certain strings of fire to make up some of the difference.

As an instructor I try to adjust course round count constantly based on past courses that we have taught to keep things as economical for the student while maximizing the training opportunity. At the same time I also want to have enough wiggle room to allow for additional drills when a class is struggling with a concept. As a result for most of the courses that LMS Defense teaches we plan on being slightly under what the recommended round count is for the class to allow some extra work. Occasionally a class of superstars show up and we run high on round count, as a result that 20% will be helpful. I hope that this makes sense and clarifies the things.
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LMS Defense Inc.
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Email: JoshJackson@LMSDefense.com
www.LMSDefense.com
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  #5  
Old 01-12-2013, 10:00 AM
cloughm cloughm is offline
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Default LMS SHOTGUN CLINIC

Once again LMS and Josh Jackson put on an outstanding training day. Important skills were covered in a fast paced but not overwhelming manner. The addition of 2 assistant instructors meant that individual attention was readily available. It was impressive how Josh was able to adapt the training to the various skill levels, the time allotted, and the weather conditions. I personally believe that the shotgun is going to take on increased importance for home defense and tactical applications given the present and future political climate regarding anything that might get labeled an assault weapon.
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  #6  
Old 01-13-2013, 3:50 PM
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scootle scootle is offline
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Thanks for posting this AAR! I almost tried to sign-up for this class zero-hour, but something came up and I couldn't get out there.

I really want to train more with my shotgun... lots more... I took the 2-day Awerbuck class in 2011 and it was also great!

I think shotgun training (of quality) is hard to come by, so any solid resources in this area will be good for all of us. Given the state of our laws here in KA... I find the shotgun is probably the most practical home-defense option available to us... it's just not as "sexy" or "tacticool" compared to other options...

edit: One other thought...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Jackson View Post
CHD stated in his post to bring lots of ammo. I agree with what he said but I would like to expand on it just a little. Ammunition is expensive but so is training. There is nothing worse then getting distracted during the class that you are taking because you are concentrating on managing your ammo so you don't run out and what happens is you end up missing out on the material you paid to learn. I've been there.

As a rule when I take a class as a student I try to bring about 20 to 25% over what ammunition the class calls for. This allows me to shoot extra drills if there is something that I want to work on as well as work in extra non standard responses and the like for added training value. In the event that I am running short on ammo I may just fire one or two less rounds on certain strings of fire to make up some of the difference.

As an instructor I try to adjust course round count constantly based on past courses that we have taught to keep things as economical for the student while maximizing the training opportunity. At the same time I also want to have enough wiggle room to allow for additional drills when a class is struggling with a concept. As a result for most of the courses that LMS Defense teaches we plan on being slightly under what the recommended round count is for the class to allow some extra work. Occasionally a class of superstars show up and we run high on round count, as a result that 20% will be helpful. I hope that this makes sense and clarifies the things.
Has any thought been given to figuring out ways to offer (intro) classes that "include ammo" as part of the class cost? Maybe this, by sheer volume, can help spread the load out over a much larger audience such that the overall cost per student in general ends up being lower? Just a random thought... might be easier said than done. Hard to know what the right answer is, but it depends if there are supplier partners available to make bulk rates available to training providers. I have no idea how the legal or business aspects of this might work out.

Last edited by scootle; 01-13-2013 at 3:56 PM..
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