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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 01-26-2008, 12:03 PM
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Default Try this one.

Here are a few C&R long guns...

Quote:
# Auto Ordnance, West Hurley, NY, Korean War Commemorative Thompson semiautomatic rifle, caliber .45.

# Auto Ordnance, West Hurley, NY, World War II Commemorative Thompson semiautomatic rifle, caliber .45.

# Auto Ordnance Thompson, cal. 45 semiautomatic rifle, Vietnam Commemorative, S/N's V0001-V1500, issued by the American Historical Foundation, Richmond VA.
Have an out of state dealer modify one to have a fixed 10 round mag before shipping it to your local California FFL, or buy it out of state with your C&R FFL and fix a 10 round mag before coming back to California.

Form a Trust and transfer to rifle to the Trust.

File for the Form 1 and when it is approved cut the barrel down.

You end up with an authentic looking Thompson (with a lame fixed 10 round mag and gold lettering on the receiver).



With the fixed 10 round mag and 33 inch overall length it would not be considered an AW in California.
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  #82  
Old 01-26-2008, 1:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Amendment II View Post
Here are a few C&R long guns...



Have an out of state dealer modify one to have a fixed 10 round mag before shipping it to your local California FFL, or buy it out of state with your C&R FFL and fix a 10 round mag before coming back to California.

Form a Trust and transfer to rifle to the Trust.

File for the Form 1 and when it is approved cut the barrel down.

You end up with an authentic looking Thompson (with a lame fixed 10 round mag and gold lettering on the receiver).



With the fixed 10 round mag and 33 inch overall length it would not be considered an AW in California.
But doesn't California's definition of "Curio and Relic" only include firearms that are 50 years old or older? I don't think newly made "commemoratives" qualify as C&R here.
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  #83  
Old 01-26-2008, 1:17 PM
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Originally Posted by monkey View Post
But doesn't California's definition of "Curio and Relic" only include firearms that are 50 years old or older? I don't think newly made "commemoratives" qualify as C&R here.
No. California uses the same definition of Curio & Relic that the Feds use.

You are thinking about California's exemptions from Dealer transfers. In that part of the law California requires that a long gun be both C&R and at least 50 years old to be exempt from Dealer transfer requirements in California.
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  #84  
Old 01-26-2008, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Amendment II View Post
No. California uses the same definition of Curio & Relic that the Feds use.

You are thinking about California's exemptions from Dealer transfers. In that part of the law California requires that a long gun be both C&R and at least 50 years old to be exempt from Dealer transfer requirements in California.
Ah, got it.
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  #85  
Old 01-29-2008, 11:49 AM
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Where does it say that ATF will not approve any Form 1/4 that would violate CA law?

That statement on ATF letterhead along with the NFA stamp might be enough to demonstrate the legality to the ... uh... concerned LEO?

What do you all think about the 50+year and "original configuration" criteria that is all over the ATF website?

I think the implied argument is that if ATF will not approve anything that violates CA law, then cutting the barrel off a C&R must not change it's C&R status in ATF's view. It would be nice to have that documented somehow.

Last edited by vandal; 01-29-2008 at 12:51 PM..
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  #86  
Old 01-29-2008, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by vandal View Post
Where does it say that ATF will not approve any Form 1/4 that would violate CA law?
It says it in the instructions on the Form 1/4 in Reasons for Disapproval, 7A, that "If state or local law prohibitts the making or possession of the firearm being made, the application will be disapproved.

Quote:
That statement on ATF letterhead along with the NFA stamp might be enough to demonstrate the legality to the ... uh... concerned LEO?
Bad part is that instructions are on a separate page from the actuall Form 1/4. Here is a link to the form 4, http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53204.pdf . Form 1s are not online right now at the ATF. Same info regarding state law is on the Form 1.

The regulation stated on the Form 1/4 that requires dissapproval of an app, http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/5822.html

Quote:
What do you all think about the 50+year and "original configuration" criteria that is all over the ATF website?
"original configuration" is not in the regulations for the definition of a C&R.

Quote:
WHAT ARE CURIOS OR RELICS?
As set out in the regulations (27 CFR 178.11), curios or relics include firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
"original configuration" is in an ATF Ruling 85-10? that applies to foreign military firearms needing to stay in original configuration. All the opinion letters that I have seen that refered to 85-10 were regarding foreign C&Rs that were modded. Nothing related to a domestic 50+ year old C&R.

Last edited by ke6guj; 01-29-2008 at 12:24 PM..
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  #87  
Old 01-30-2008, 8:59 AM
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You're absolutely right, the "original configuration" is not relevant here -- I must have had that idea stuck in my head from other C&R debates.

Rereading the CA PC it just as you have it -- Curio or relics as defined by 478.11, (which just requires manufacture 50+ years ago). Not as defined by ATF's opinion.

I still think I will get a letter from Ithaca attesting to the date of manufacture. That, a highlighted printout of 478.11 and the NFA tax stamp should make things clear.

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  #88  
Old 02-02-2008, 9:53 PM
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I have been thinking more about this and had some new thoughts. I am not nearly as familiar with federal laws as I am with state laws, so someone please verify my understanding of this. Federally speaking, an AOW in “any other weapon” meaning not a long gun and not a hand gun. Most important to what I am thinking, it not being considered a handgun even if it is say a regular handgun with a forward grip. Am I correct in this assumption that the AOW definition supersedes any other handgun definition?

If this is the case, and a otherwise handgun has a forward grip and is registered as an AOW according to all NFA rules, and the forward grip is removed but it still is registered, does it revert back to a hand gun or is it still an AOW? I am talking about if the grip is removable and can be taken off and on easily does the configuration change its status?

Now it looks like CA adopts the federal definition of an AOW which if my above assumptions are correct, would mean that a handgun registered/configured as an AOW would not actually legally be a handgun.
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  #89  
Old 02-03-2008, 8:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RANGER295 View Post
I have been thinking more about this and had some new thoughts. I am not nearly as familiar with federal laws as I am with state laws, so someone please verify my understanding of this. Federally speaking, an AOW in “any other weapon” meaning not a long gun and not a hand gun. Most important to what I am thinking, it not being considered a handgun even if it is say a regular handgun with a forward grip. Am I correct in this assumption that the AOW definition supersedes any other handgun definition?

If this is the case, and a otherwise handgun has a forward grip and is registered as an AOW according to all NFA rules, and the forward grip is removed but it still is registered, does it revert back to a hand gun or is it still an AOW? I am talking about if the grip is removable and can be taken off and on easily does the configuration change its status?

Now it looks like CA adopts the federal definition of an AOW which if my above assumptions are correct, would mean that a handgun registered/configured as an AOW would not actually legally be a handgun.
This is the million dollar question--does Federal classification of a firearm as an AOW supercede other provisions of CA law--or could such a firearm be both an AOW for purposes of US and CA AOW laws, and also, say, a handgun and/or a pistol for purposes of other provisions of CA law (such as the CA saftey testing requirements and AW laws).
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  #90  
Old 02-03-2008, 10:52 AM
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Fer criminey sakes, somebody do it already!! I still am wanting a serbu Shorty!
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  #91  
Old 02-03-2008, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Stormfeather View Post
Fer criminey sakes, somebody do it already!! I still am wanting a serbu Shorty!
My second Form 1 is going in this week for an AOW on a Mossberg Cruiser. My local Class 3 dealer didn't want to do a Form 4 transfer if I bought a Serbu.

I'll cut it down myself for now, and maybe send it off to Mark to have him mod it to a super-shorty later on.
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  #92  
Old 02-03-2008, 5:03 PM
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I've been wanting a short Vang Comp barrel for a looong time....

Justin
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  #93  
Old 02-03-2008, 6:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RANGER295 View Post
I have been thinking more about this and had some new thoughts. I am not nearly as familiar with federal laws as I am with state laws, so someone please verify my understanding of this. Federally speaking, an AOW in “any other weapon” meaning not a long gun and not a hand gun. Most important to what I am thinking, it not being considered a handgun even if it is say a regular handgun with a forward grip. Am I correct in this assumption that the AOW definition supersedes any other handgun definition?
AOW should supersede any other Federal Handgun definition. During the federal AW ban, AOWs were exempt from the ban on pistol AWs so some guys registered AR-15 lowers as AOWs and built them up as pistols with forward grips.

Quote:
If this is the case, and a otherwise handgun has a forward grip and is registered as an AOW according to all NFA rules, and the forward grip is removed but it still is registered, does it revert back to a hand gun or is it still an AOW? I am talking about if the grip is removable and can be taken off and on easily does the configuration change its status?
Not sure about AOW status if grip was temporarily removed.


Quote:
Now it looks like CA adopts the federal definition of an AOW which if my above assumptions are correct, would mean that a handgun registered/configured as an AOW would not actually legally be a handgun.
technically, I don't think that CA adopts the federal AOW defintion. They just say, with regards to 12020, if it is a federally registered AOW, then it is exempt from 12020.

CA also has
Quote:
12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."
that says that anything with a barrel less that 16" is a pistol, and with that, you have to comply with the AW rules for pistols if semi-auto. Drop-tests also probably apply if you tried to Form 4 a AOW like a super-shorty from a dealer. I guess I need to tell Mark that he needs to get the super-shorties drop-tested and added to the roster
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  #94  
Old 02-03-2008, 8:15 PM
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Now we just need a class III dealer in SoCal willing to play ball
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  #95  
Old 02-03-2008, 9:29 PM
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Fer criminey sakes, somebody do it already!! I still am wanting a serbu Shorty!
Amen to that.......they are wicked little cannons.

--Neill
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  #96  
Old 02-04-2008, 6:32 PM
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One user posted on ar15/com that he had already got approved to cut down an Ithaca 37 into an SBS.

Good luck finding a dealer that will transfer any fun stuff.
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  #97  
Old 02-04-2008, 6:57 PM
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Originally Posted by whomper View Post
One user posted on ar15/com that he had already got approved to cut down an Ithaca 37 into an SBS.

Good luck finding a dealer that will transfer any fun stuff.
Whoever could that be?
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  #98  
Old 02-05-2008, 9:19 AM
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Whoever could that be?
I dunno, but I wish someone would post some pics. Seriously, an SBS/SBR/AOW pic thread would probably give some members of the CA DOJ some high blood pressure. Friggin' evil guns...
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  #99  
Old 02-05-2008, 10:10 AM
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Once I get my tax stamp I am tempted to post a "Thanks CalGuns!" pic thread with my fixed-mag AK pistols, Saiga, and chopped Ithacas...

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Originally Posted by whomper View Post
I dunno, but I wish someone would post some pics. Seriously, an SBS/SBR/AOW pic thread would probably give some members of the CA DOJ some high blood pressure. Friggin' evil guns...
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  #100  
Old 02-05-2008, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by whomper View Post
I dunno, but I wish someone would post some pics. Seriously, an SBS/SBR/AOW pic thread would probably give some members of the CA DOJ some high blood pressure. Friggin' evil guns...
nothing has been cut yet, but picture this with a folding stock.
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File Type: jpg SBS_ht9.jpg (7.3 KB, 279 views)
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  #101  
Old 02-06-2008, 9:03 AM
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Quote:
and chopped Ithacas...
Ya got more than one??

She looks great!

Justin
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  #102  
Old 02-06-2008, 10:09 AM
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Of course. Two is one, one is none... especially with something like this!

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Ya got more than one??
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  #103  
Old 02-06-2008, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by RANGER295 View Post
I have been thinking more about this and had some new thoughts. I am not nearly as familiar with federal laws as I am with state laws, so someone please verify my understanding of this. Federally speaking, an AOW in “any other weapon” meaning not a long gun and not a hand gun. Most important to what I am thinking, it not being considered a handgun even if it is say a regular handgun with a forward grip. Am I correct in this assumption that the AOW definition supersedes any other handgun definition?

If this is the case, and a otherwise handgun has a forward grip and is registered as an AOW according to all NFA rules, and the forward grip is removed but it still is registered, does it revert back to a hand gun or is it still an AOW? I am talking about if the grip is removable and can be taken off and on easily does the configuration change its status?

Now it looks like CA adopts the federal definition of an AOW which if my above assumptions are correct, would mean that a handgun registered/configured as an AOW would not actually legally be a handgun.
No, you are not quite correct. Federal Title I and Title II laws are quite different in their use of terms. According to federal law, a "Handgun" by definition is a Title I firearm. The word "Handgun" does not appear in Title II law, it is replaced with "Pistol" instead. They have similar definitions, but a "handgun" and a "pistol" are two different things entirely since you are in fact talking about two entirely different codes of law. While you are correct in that an "AOW" cannot be a "handgun" it is not because an AOW is not designed to fire with one hand, which is incorrect anyway, but because "AOW" is a Title II definition and "Handgun" is a Title I definition. An AOW can in fact be a "pistol." AOW shotguns are by definition "smooth-bore pistols."

Secondly, a registered AOW is a registered AOW in all configurations. It does not matter if the front grip is removed or not. Once it is papered as an NFA weapon, it must be treated as such regardless of what physical changes you make to it. Removing the front grip on an AOW does not make it a Title I firearm. Similarly, if you add a 20" barrel to a registered SBR, you still have an SBR.

Last edited by monkey; 02-06-2008 at 11:09 AM..
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  #104  
Old 02-06-2008, 11:09 PM
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  #105  
Old 02-07-2008, 4:57 PM
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Whipped this up today, should be a handy item. 22/410 with 14 inch barrels.

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  #106  
Old 02-07-2008, 5:02 PM
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Haven't cut my barrel yet but as you can see this Ithaca 37 with youth/body armor PG stock will be slightly shorter than my (registered) 14.5" M4. Shooting the Ithaca (which lacks a disconnector) is really amazing!

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  #107  
Old 02-15-2008, 2:19 AM
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It sounds like this C&R AOW thing could really take off. I know that I've been drawn to the shorties of all types for quite a while now, and I'm dying to have an old double-barrel or pump chopped down to nearly nothing. The ithaca's look nice.

Any chance we could keep this thread going for a while and develop a list of everyone's ideas for their personal builds? I know about half of my inspiration comes from fellow calgunners.
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  #108  
Old 02-15-2008, 2:11 PM
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Whipped this up today, should be a handy item. 22/410 with 14 inch barrels.

Is that an SBR, SBS, or AOW?

Just curious.
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  #109  
Old 02-15-2008, 2:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whomper View Post
Is that an SBR, SBS, or AOW?

Just curious.
That is an AOW.

edit:
Quote:
A firearm having combination rifle and shotgun barrels, more than 12 inches but less than 18 inches long, originally designed to be fired from the shoulder.

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  #110  
Old 02-15-2008, 4:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whomper View Post
Is that an SBR, SBS, or AOW?

Just curious.
It's got to be a SBR and a SBS...

AFAIK, it cannot be an AOW...
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Old 02-15-2008, 4:22 PM
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It's got to be a SBR and a SBS...

AFAIK, it cannot be an AOW...
Nope, its an AOW.

Here's the info direct from the ATF. http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/nfa.htm

Quote:
§ 5845. Definitions

For the purpose of this chapter --

(e) Any other weapon. -- The term "any other weapon" means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
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  #112  
Old 02-15-2008, 4:58 PM
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Thanks.
I forgot about that part.

Personally, I was gonna start looking to do one of these, but I broke my leg, and will be unable to work for a few months.

I wanted to go get San Diego CLEO sign off, just to see what would happen. I think the Sheriff would get a little huffy. Maybe he'd change his mind after I inform him about the trust aspect of NFA. Doubt it, though. He's a bit uptight.
But, how good would it be if he did?

Anyway, thanks for posting up this stuff.

I might wander over to the suggestion box and drop a comment about having an NFA Pic thread. I'm sure there are some other folks that have some fun stuff, too. SOTs, LEO's, etc. It would be fun for the drool factor.
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  #113  
Old 02-15-2008, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
Nope, its an AOW.
Here's the info direct from the ATF. http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/nfa.htm
You're right, I'm wrong.
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  #114  
Old 02-16-2008, 10:44 PM
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I think the point of the trust filing for the federal paperwork is that you don't need the CLEO sign off for an AOW or a C&R SBS or SBR.


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Originally Posted by whomper View Post
Thanks.
I forgot about that part.

Personally, I was gonna start looking to do one of these, but I broke my leg, and will be unable to work for a few months.

I wanted to go get San Diego CLEO sign off, just to see what would happen. I think the Sheriff would get a little huffy. Maybe he'd change his mind after I inform him about the trust aspect of NFA. Doubt it, though. He's a bit uptight.
But, how good would it be if he did?

Anyway, thanks for posting up this stuff.

I might wander over to the suggestion box and drop a comment about having an NFA Pic thread. I'm sure there are some other folks that have some fun stuff, too. SOTs, LEO's, etc. It would be fun for the drool factor.
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  #115  
Old 02-17-2008, 8:44 AM
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KDOFisch KDOFisch is offline
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Forgive me, slightly O/T, but it's still kinda funny.

Last night I had a dream that I was visiting some local gun shop and near the other pamphlets about DFG, the OLL situation etc there was another green pamphlet saying right up front: "So you wanna own a pre-86 FA weapon in CA? Now you can!!"

Of course, the pamphlet suddenly disappeared from the rack, and the guy up front kept going in the back to look for them to no avail. It was a very disappointing dream.
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  #116  
Old 02-17-2008, 11:36 AM
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ke6guj ke6guj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamsreeftank View Post
I think the point of the trust filing for the federal paperwork is that you don't need the CLEO sign off for an AOW or a C&R SBS or SBR.
I think whomper understands that, but if you can get a CLEO sign off on your paperwork easily, it has its benefits. Such as, if you get questioned by 5-0, you can say something like, "look at the back of the form, your boss gave me permission when he signed it".

There are pluses and minuses either way, individual (with CLEO sign-off) or trust/corp. One thing I know is that an actual CLEO posts on another forum and does a trust for his toys even though he can sign his own forms. That may say something.

Last edited by ke6guj; 02-17-2008 at 11:39 AM..
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  #117  
Old 02-17-2008, 12:26 PM
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I understand NFA and trusts/LLC/corporations.
The sheriff in San Diego will not issue CCWs to peons like me. That fact alone leads me to believe that he will not sign NFA paperwork.
BUT...I still want to stroll in there and ask for his signature. Mostly, just to see the dept. reaction. I can imagine that they will get their panties in a bunch.
If they say no, I will explain to them that I can set up a trust and still legally own the NFA stuff. The sheriff has the option of:
A) Sign it and know what NFA stuff I have.
B) refure signature and NEVER know what NFA stuff I have.

FWIW, San Diego Sheriff Kolender is an a**. I can't wait til the ***** retires.
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  #118  
Old 02-17-2008, 6:03 PM
Roccobro Roccobro is offline
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Quote:
FWIW, San Diego Sheriff Kolender is an a**. I can't wait til the ***** retires.
Rumor in the LE circles is that he has some kind of real bad Alzheimers, and the uppers in charge have a plan in place to phase him out and replace him with one of his Deputy Chiefs or the Undersheriff until elections come back around. You might not even see him if you were to march into his office.

I think I posted somewhere about one of his replacements being VERY pro-CCW. We can only hope for the San Diegans.

Justin
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  #119  
Old 02-17-2008, 7:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roccobro View Post
Rumor in the LE circles is that he has some kind of real bad Alzheimers, and the uppers in charge have a plan in place to phase him out and replace him with one of his Deputy Chiefs or the Undersheriff until elections come back around. You might not even see him if you were to march into his office.

I think I posted somewhere about one of his replacements being VERY pro-CCW. We can only hope for the San Diegans.

Justin
I've read that about him, too.
I may rethink my plan. I don't want to rub anyone the wrong way, and leave a pro-gun guy with a bad taste in his mouth.
If I went about it correctly, it might bring a person of importance around.
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  #120  
Old 02-26-2008, 9:18 PM
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I'd like to revive this thread... I have a copy of Suze Orman's Will & Trust Kit right here.. software. I am thinking of trying the AOW path. Anyone else willing to work in parallel?

Turby
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