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Ladies Forum A place for our female Calgunners to discuss, share and interact without the 'excess attention' sometimes found in online forums.

View Poll Results: Do you believe that you would be an effect soldier on the front line?
Yes. 7 20.00%
No. 22 62.86%
I love my country! I will die protecting the freedom of my family, and my countrymen! 4 11.43%
Not interested in answering. Too touchy for the men. 2 5.71%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 12-29-2012, 5:07 PM
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Default Ladies only poll, Should you be allowed on the front line?

Hello my sisters.

We have heard it all....
Women are too emotional.
They should stay home for the war effort.
Women would be a liability on the front line.
They know their place.
Women are not strong as men.
Etc...etc...etc...

My question is this, and this is an honest question....

Do you believe that you would be an effect soldier on the front line?

It does not matter your strength, nor what the law or policy is.
The question is asking what you think.

I think I would do fine. I can live or die just like anyone else on the front line.
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2012, 5:17 PM
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Women are serving right now in the current wars. Of course they can. I find the wording of "allow women on the front line" troublesome. Women are citizens and don't need anyone's permission to do their duty.

Could I ? No doubt, when I was a 22 year old. Now, not so much. I couldn't begin to hump an 80 pound pack all day.

But if the question is "Can you kill someone who is threatening you or your companions?" You bet!

The real question is "Will the men around them see them as equal soldiers". And that's a different topic.
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2012, 5:23 PM
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I myself would do just fine I believe having lived the life I've lived through but it's the aftermath that can get you if you make it through.
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2012, 5:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BonnieB View Post
Women are serving right now in the current wars. Of course they can. I find the wording of "allow women on the front line" troublesome. Women are citizens and don't need anyone's permission to do their duty.

Could I ? No doubt, when I was a 22 year old. Now, not so much. I couldn't begin to hump an 80 pound pack all day.

But if the question is "Can you kill someone who is threatening you or your companions?" You bet!

The real question is "Will the men around them see them as equal soldiers". And that's a different topic.
Agreed. That is a different topic.

I'm honored to hear your opinion, which is right in line with mine.
Thank you.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2012, 7:11 PM
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I realize im walking into a free fire zone posting this, but I can't hold my tongue on this topic.

War is not a game. Its not a Hollywood drama where you jump on a plane to some unknown romantic land and spread the Good Word on Republican government. Its a lot of waiting, followed by short periods of terror where you pray you made it out alive with your friends. Sometimes your friends don't make it back with you. Sometimes the chain of command orders you to do something so foolish you KNOW your friends aren'
t coming home.

When it comes to allowing women to serve in front line infantry, all I have to say is this. Beware what you wish for, as you may get exactly what you asked for.
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2012, 9:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
I realize im walking into a free fire zone posting this, but I can't hold my tongue on this topic.

War is not a game. Its not a Hollywood drama where you jump on a plane to some unknown romantic land and spread the Good Word on Republican government. Its a lot of waiting, followed by short periods of terror where you pray you made it out alive with your friends. Sometimes your friends don't make it back with you. Sometimes the chain of command orders you to do something so foolish you KNOW your friends aren'
t coming home.

When it comes to allowing women to serve in front line infantry, all I have to say is this. Beware what you wish for, as you may get exactly what you asked for.
First off. I was in the Army from '83-'86. I'm well aware of what war is.
Secondly, this thread is for women only. I do not know if you are a woman or not. If not, please do not post here.
Thirdly, your post was real, but your tenor was condescending in that you are making the assumption that we do not know the responsibilities we have in war.
Fourth. I would gladly be drafted. And I am careful what I wish for and I wish that I can fight alongside my brothers and sisters.

Edit: I just found out the answer to number two. While I appreciate your comments, my question is for the ladies. I do not want a man to come into this thread and push their opinion. Regardless about studies is Israel, snipers in Russia, whatever....my question stands for the ladies.

Last edited by OHOD; 12-29-2012 at 9:20 PM..
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2012, 9:23 PM
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Originally Posted by BonnieB View Post
Women are serving right now in the current wars. Of course they can. I find the wording of "allow women on the front line" troublesome. Women are citizens and don't need anyone's permission to do their duty.

Could I ? No doubt, when I was a 22 year old. Now, not so much. I couldn't begin to hump an 80 pound pack all day.

But if the question is "Can you kill someone who is threatening you or your companions?" You bet!

The real question is "Will the men around them see them as equal soldiers". And that's a different topic.
To the women here, can you define equal in the eyes of your comrades?
Do you think men can view women as equal soldiers?
Can women view men as equal soldiers?
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  #8  
Old 12-30-2012, 10:38 AM
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Here's an interesting ethical note:

I'm a lifelong feminist and have opposed the military draft (I only want soldiers in the military who want to be there).

In about 1980 my younger sister was in law school and there was a possibility that the draft would be extended to women. And I was stuck!
  • I didn't want my sister to get drafted,
  • I didn't want her law school to be interrupted
  • and I was totally sure that if women are full citizens, they should be as liable to the draft as men are.
Horrible dilemma to be caught between two strong political/ethical beliefs and a family situation. And my baby sister would have been a terrible soldier. She was and is scared of her own shadow and panics under pressure consistently.

This conflict was awful for me and for my parents. In the end, it didn't matter since the law didn't get passed. Middle America was not ready to give up its daughters and made Washington very aware of their opinion. But it is really enlightening to confront your own beliefs and conflicts that way, under such pressure.

Thank god we have an all volunteer military now, where people can go and serve who want to stand up for their country, or get a skill, or go to college after, or have life-long free health care or all of the above. All you have to do is risk your life...
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WHAT I HAVE LEARNED SO FAR, MOSTLY THE HARD WAY
Do only safe sex. Never have sex with someone crazier than you are.
Don't marry or move in together before you're both at least 25.
Don't have children until you're married five years or at least age 30.
Put 10% of your salary into savings every month no matter how broke you are.
Don't ever screw around with the IRS.
Keep a handgun on your bedside table.
Don't smart-mouth judges, or cops who stop you on the road.
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  #9  
Old 12-30-2012, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BonnieB View Post
Here's an interesting ethical note:

I'm a lifelong feminist and have opposed the military draft (I only want soldiers in the military who want to be there).

In about 1980 my younger sister was in law school and there was a possibility that the draft would be extended to women. And I was stuck!
  • I didn't want my sister to get drafted,
  • I didn't want her law school to be interrupted
  • and I was totally sure that if women are full citizens, they should be as liable to the draft as men are.
Horrible dilemma to be caught between two strong political/ethical beliefs and a family situation. And my baby sister would have been a terrible soldier. She was and is scared of her own shadow and panics under pressure consistently.

This conflict was awful for me and for my parents. In the end, it didn't matter since the law didn't get passed. Middle America was not ready to give up its daughters and made Washington very aware of their opinion. But it is really enlightening to confront your own beliefs and conflicts that way, under such pressure.

Thank god we have an all volunteer military now, where people can go and serve who want to stand up for their country, or get a skill, or go to college after, or have life-long free health care or all of the above. All you have to do is risk your life...
I would content that the parents and siblings of men that are drafted go through the exact dilemmas.

While women are not currently on the front lines of the war on terror, they are affected by being attacked and captured while performing logistical, medical and communication support. One of my coworkers was a Captain in the Medical Corp. she was an RN. She served in the secure zone in Iraq and on a daily basis her location was bombed with mortars. She saw many of her female comrades killed while trying to save the soldiers wounded on the front line.

I'm wondering if your sister would have been weeded out during basic training anyway, which is the way it should be. When women go through basic, for some reason the drill instructors really pushed us hard. Sometimes I wonder if it was harder than our male counterparts, but probably not. Anyway, that was my experience.
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  #10  
Old 12-30-2012, 4:53 PM
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I have very mixed emotions on this subject. Honestly, I know I don't know the real horrors of war. My very best friend in the world is a Vietnam war vet. He is a tough guy. He was a Los Angeles sheriff did three tours in Vietnam and was special forces in South America chasing drug cartel. Vietnam war is what what made him a changed man. Some things he just doesn't speak about. But, he is a great man with a great heart. Do I think I could have been on the front line with him? Absolutely not. I don't have the stomach for it and would have had less when I was in my 20's. I am a little more toughened and hardened today. Now do I believe there are some women could do it? Absolutely.

So the question is, should they be "allowed"? My answer is yes. If they can pass the training like a man and shoot and have the mental toughness needed, then they should be allowed to serve on the front line. Do I think most women have the strength and ability to keep their brothers and sisters safe out there.........I don't think so.
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  #11  
Old 12-30-2012, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by OHOD View Post
First off. I was in the Army from '83-'86. I'm well aware of what war is.
Secondly, this thread is for women only. I do not know if you are a woman or not. If not, please do not post here.
Thirdly, your post was real, but your tenor was condescending in that you are making the assumption that we do not know the responsibilities we have in war.
Fourth. I would gladly be drafted. And I am careful what I wish for and I wish that I can fight alongside my brothers and sisters.

Edit: I just found out the answer to number two. While I appreciate your comments, my question is for the ladies. I do not want a man to come into this thread and push their opinion. Regardless about studies is Israel, snipers in Russia, whatever....my question stands for the ladies.
First of all you said poll, not thread. As in I can comment in the thread but not vote in the poll.

You referenced the study done in Israel, so that means I don't have to find it and link it.

A female added to my squad would become a liability. Currently, standards are not the same for both men and women.

If you individually, don't behave like a little sister which makes me subconsciously want to protect you, you can literally carry your own weight and gear, perform to the same level in combat, and be able to be one of the guys and not get emotional and offended when the front line infantry are just trying to make a joke or two, then sure you can fight too.

You are entitled to your opinion; so am I; along with every man that is in the infantry on the front lines.

I take it you have not seen the documentary The Invisible War? Watch that, think on it, then you are entitled to make an educated comment.

But after re-reading my response, my stance really boils down to this: I practice jiu-jitsu. In this very large category of skilled practitioners, if you take two average guys with the same amount of technique and experience, it will be a very even match. If you match an average man and an average woman with the same skill and experience, the man will dominate the woman.

I would want the best person suited for the job to cover my six.

On a more personal question, but still respectful: Have you ever fought in a war, as in shot at someone? I have not. Have you been in a physical confrontation with a person of stature similar to that of a soldier in the frontline infantry? I have not, but very very close in size and capability. Have you ever been in a physical conflict with another human that involved the threat of very real physical consequences? I have. Have you ever been in a physical fight with another person, where the penalty for losing is being blacked out by being choked out? I have. Have you ever been haymackered in a scenario and then had to defend yourself? I have.

I know this is the Ladies section. And I know that it is important to make the female populace of the firearms community not feel discriminated. I'm not angry or being disrespectful. It's that the question asked in this thread has consequences that affect way more than just the women posting about it. If it became standard practice to have women on the front lines, far more men would die as a direct consequence than the women newly put in. To me, that sounds like it would affect more men than women, and therefore would be very relevant and prudent for the men to have a say in.
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  #12  
Old 12-30-2012, 9:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgunner739 View Post
First of all you said poll, not thread. As in I can comment in the thread but not vote in the poll.

Granted, however, you knew what the intent was and that this was a womens only thread. In fact, this is a Ladies Only forum. You should read the rules to understand that this is a place for us to discuss issues without men. As you know, men are the predominant members of Calguns. If we did not need a place for women to discuss issues without the influence of testosterone, then we would simply post in the other forums.

The rules of this forum is that it is for the Ladies. Please respect that.


You referenced the study done in Israel, so that means I don't have to find it and link it. Nope. I am crystal clear on the study.

A female added to my squad would become a liability. Currently, standards are not the same for both men and women. Doesn't matter what the standards are, change them. If a woman cannot meet the standard of your squad, then they should not be accepted. I agree that a woman would typically not be suited for being a SEAL because of the strength and mental focus needed. I am not arguing any of that.

If you individually, don't behave like a little sister which makes me subconsciously want to protect you, you can literally carry your own weight and gear, perform to the same level in combat, and be able to be one of the guys and not get emotional and offended when the front line infantry are just trying to make a joke or two, then sure you can fight too. And that is what I am talking about. I climb in the Sierras and carry 50-70 lb packs when need. Yes I can hump a pack 25 miles, been there, done that.

You are entitled to your opinion; so am I; along with every man that is in the infantry on the front lines. And I respect that as well.

I take it you have not seen the documentary The Invisible War? Watch that, think on it, then you are entitled to make an educated comment.
I will probably watch it.

But after re-reading my response, my stance really boils down to this: I practice jiu-jitsu. I have a Black Belt in TKD. I competed against men in the Florida State TKD Championships. Gave one guy a black eye with the heel of my foot. In this very large category of skilled practitioners, if you take two average guys with the same amount of technique and experience, it will be a very even match. If you match an average man and an average woman with the same skill and experience, the man will dominate the woman. Most likely. However, in war there is no match up. The weak die, the strong prevail. My grandfather fought on Okinawa, he weighed in at 120 lbs. I believe size does matter, but in a conflict, you do not get to choose.

I would want the best person suited for the job to cover my six. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure if there was a woman that met your criteria, then she would cover your six 100%

On a more personal question, but still respectful: Have you ever fought in a war, as in shot at someone? I have not. Neither have I, nor have inductees in the military. Have you been in a physical confrontation with a person of stature similar to that of a soldier in the frontline infantry? I have not, but very very close in size and capability. No. Every person has a weakness. Have you ever been in a physical conflict with another human that involved the threat of very real physical consequences? I have. Yes, his back almost got broke. 6 conflicts in my life involved fighting. I prefer not to give the details. 4 men, 3 women.Have you ever been in a physical fight with another person, where the penalty for losing is being blacked out by being choked out? I have. Yes, once. I choked him out in the middle of the street. I was 18. Have you ever been haymackered in a scenario and then had to defend yourself? I have. Don't know what haymackered is.

I know this is the Ladies section. And I know that it is important to make the female populace of the firearms community not feel discriminated. I'm not angry or being disrespectful. It's that the question asked in this thread has consequences that affect way more than just the women posting about it. If it became standard practice to have women on the front lines, far more men would die as a direct consequence than the women newly put in. To me, that sounds like it would affect more men than women, and therefore would be very relevant and prudent for the men to have a say in.
Therefore, women are not a force multiplier in your opinion.
My comments are as noted.
I respect your opinions.
Keep in mind, that some women are just as capable as men.
The average woman, I concede not.
However, when faced with the having my freedom taken from me, then one should beware.

My final statement:

We are currently in a "Soft Tyranny".
When that soft tyranny becomes a hard tyranny, which would you rather have: Women that will stand with you, or women that will stand on the hill and watch you?
I will stand with you and nobody has the right to say I cannot fight for my or your freedom.
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  #13  
Old 12-30-2012, 9:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Calgunner739 View Post
First of all you said poll, not thread. As in I can comment in the thread but not vote in the poll.

You referenced the study done in Israel, so that means I don't have to find it and link it.

A female added to my squad would become a liability. Currently, standards are not the same for both men and women.

If you individually, don't behave like a little sister which makes me subconsciously want to protect you, you can literally carry your own weight and gear, perform to the same level in combat, and be able to be one of the guys and not get emotional and offended when the front line infantry are just trying to make a joke or two, then sure you can fight too.

You are entitled to your opinion; so am I; along with every man that is in the infantry on the front lines.

I take it you have not seen the documentary The Invisible War? Watch that, think on it, then you are entitled to make an educated comment.

But after re-reading my response, my stance really boils down to this: I practice jiu-jitsu. In this very large category of skilled practitioners, if you take two average guys with the same amount of technique and experience, it will be a very even match. If you match an average man and an average woman with the same skill and experience, the man will dominate the woman.

I would want the best person suited for the job to cover my six.

On a more personal question, but still respectful: Have you ever fought in a war, as in shot at someone? I have not. Have you been in a physical confrontation with a person of stature similar to that of a soldier in the frontline infantry? I have not, but very very close in size and capability. Have you ever been in a physical conflict with another human that involved the threat of very real physical consequences? I have. Have you ever been in a physical fight with another person, where the penalty for losing is being blacked out by being choked out? I have. Have you ever been haymackered in a scenario and then had to defend yourself? I have.

I know this is the Ladies section. And I know that it is important to make the female populace of the firearms community not feel discriminated. I'm not angry or being disrespectful. It's that the question asked in this thread has consequences that affect way more than just the women posting about it. If it became standard practice to have women on the front lines, far more men would die as a direct consequence than the women newly put in. To me, that sounds like it would affect more men than women, and therefore would be very relevant and prudent for the men to have a say in.
Apparently you never met a woman who was a cop, a firefighter, an emergency room doctor or nurse, or EMT. Or a woman who has been physically attacked and survived. Women can be a lot tougher than you think (see my signature line).

Surely in any given platoon, there are stronger and weaker members, and the team just learns to compensate for it and take advantage of everyone's strengths and weaknesses. If they don't, they're dumb.

I don't think the military sends women into war zones who are not physically and mentally fit for it. I commend their courage.
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WHAT I HAVE LEARNED SO FAR, MOSTLY THE HARD WAY
Do only safe sex. Never have sex with someone crazier than you are.
Don't marry or move in together before you're both at least 25.
Don't have children until you're married five years or at least age 30.
Put 10% of your salary into savings every month no matter how broke you are.
Don't ever screw around with the IRS.
Keep a handgun on your bedside table.
Don't smart-mouth judges, or cops who stop you on the road.
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  #14  
Old 12-30-2012, 9:49 PM
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1. This forum is primarily for our female Calgunners to have a place free from the jokes and comments that some find offensive as well as free from the 'piling on' that often occurs when females post on forums. To that end, while this forum is open to all, there will be unique and specific consequences for those who violate these rules.
For those who like to invoke the rules but do not seem to know them.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BonnieB View Post
Apparently you never met a woman who was a cop, a firefighter, an emergency room doctor or nurse, or EMT. Or a woman who has been physically attacked and survived. Women can be a lot tougher than you think (see my signature line).

Surely in any given platoon, there are stronger and weaker members, and the team just learns to compensate for it and take advantage of everyone's strengths and weaknesses. If they don't, they're dumb.

I don't think the military sends women into war zones who are not physically and mentally fit for it. I commend their courage.
I have actually heard specific stories relating to a female firefighter that was indeed qualified for her position, back when I was in a firefighting 101 class looking into becoming a firefighter. And for the record, I am an Emergency Medical Technician (EMT).

In regards to doctors, EMTs, firefighters, cops; Don't compare any of those careers to a soldier on the frontline. There really isn't any merit in any comparison. It is a position that is quite unique in almost every aspect.

Yes, people can be tough at times. In extreme scenarios. But these are specific cases you are citing. I am talking about a war front. Not something that lasts a few minutes or hours, but is ongoing for days, weeks. Day in and day out. That is the standard. Most women cannot hack that standard. There are those that can, but they are the minority of a small group of women willing to be in the military at all; that small minority does not warrant lowering standards for more women to fight on the front. We are not talking about the extremely small number of women that could pound through the standards like they were nothing. Extremes always exist in everything. We are talking about the women admitted solely because of the lowered standards, which most definitely happen.

Why would you want a squad to be at a disadvantage before they even got into a firefight?

Anyway, I'm not here to debate your opinion. I only posted in this thread to remind the posters of the greater repercussions of policy regarding this topic. Thank you for your time, please carry on.

Last edited by Calgunner739; 12-30-2012 at 10:38 PM..
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  #16  
Old 12-31-2012, 12:12 AM
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I believe women could, can, and are just as affective in a front line position as men are. I don't think there are nearly as many women who are as capable but I believe there are enough.
You get a squad of women who are in top physical shape and they can hump the gear, shoot the guns, kill the bad guys, and send their friends off to certain death just like any other solider.
But you have to get the RIGHT kind of women.
I think the problem lies in the other sex. I believe men are to protect women and women to protect children as I believe that is how my God intended it to be.
I have heard first hand from other previous military women about how they were treated differently due to them being a women in combat excersizes and so forth. It poses problems with our current societal norms that prevent it from being a possibility. I think if it was a squad of just women it might work out better because of a sense of equality.
That all being said, I never joined the military. I almost did twice, my anti-gun, borderline republican, mother and step father talked me out of it. If I was a guy, I bet I would have gotten so much more support from them and would have joined. Ultimately though it was me who didn't join not them.
Would it have appealed to me a lot more if I could have gotten a combat postion? You better believe it would have!
Do I think we could do it? Yes. Do I think it will work and should be employed in our military today? No. Just cause we can, doesn't mean we should. I think it would put more men's lives at risk because of THEIR psychological tendencies to protect us. (talking broad majorities here)
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:33 AM
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(1.)In regards to doctors, EMTs, firefighters, cops; Don't compare any of those careers to a soldier on the frontline. There really isn't any merit in any comparison. It is a position that is quite unique in almost every aspect.

(2.)Yes, people can be tough at times. In extreme scenarios. But these are specific cases you are citing.
(3.)I am talking about a war front. Not something that lasts a few minutes or hours, but is ongoing for days, weeks. Day in and day out. That is the standard. Most women cannot hack that standard.
(4.)There are those that can, but they are the minority of a small group of women willing to be in the military at all; that small minority does not warrant lowering standards for more women to fight on the front. We are not talking about the extremely small number of women that could pound through the standards like they were nothing. Extremes always exist in everything. We are talking about the women admitted solely because of the lowered standards, which most definitely happen.
[/I]
(1.) While there is no merit as you say to compare them to, other then comparing military to military, our first responders are the closest thing we have in our society to compare to. Show me another line of work that uses military ranks, uniforms, strict guidelines, significant training time, and all while getting paid crap, rarely thanked, and go long periods with little to no sleep, walking into lord only knows, and being told to fix it with what you have, adapt, overcome, and complete the mission. (and absolutely loving every e**in minute of it but always finding something to b**ch about). I agree its NOT the same, but its the closest thing we have.

(3.) Tell that to all the women who have ever deployed to a war zone. You go ahead and tell them that they can't hack it.

(4.) No, we ARE talking about the small minority of women who can hack it. That (I believe) is the OP's point. No one said anything about lowering any standards. I believe the point the OP is trying to make is in her opinion if we can make the standards, we should be allowed to do it.

(2.) Lastly, sounds like you were a military person, you touched on how people can be tough at times, especially in extreme scenerios. Your also an EMT. When you started out in the military, and when you started as an EMT you didn't waltz right into it and were instantly tough. You learn to toughen yourself build that hard psychological armor up so that you could deal with the harsh realities of your duty. Its not something that just men can do. Women can do it too. Anyone can.
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Old 12-31-2012, 7:55 AM
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there is no such thing as a "frontline".
women soldiers have been dying in iraq and afganistan because the whole country is a war zone and there is no defined "frontline".
women are already clearing homes.
they are being blown up in trucks.
they are on the frontline each and every day.
i'm betting they even send out drones from colorado.
the old idea that there is a frontline is now a myth in modern day warfare.
the air force has women pilots flying in those war zones.
do a bit of research. its not that hard.
its not "should women be allowed" because its "women are already doing it".
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Old 12-31-2012, 8:03 AM
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Old 12-31-2012, 3:18 PM
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Just for clarifications sake, men are welcome in the Women's Forum, assuming that they are Real Men, which is to say, gentlemen, civil and respectful. So far, so good on this thread, but let's do be careful. We do not want to offend our brothers any more than we want to be offended.

Everbody is entitled to their opinions, whether we agree or not. But, we do like it when people play nice.
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Old 12-31-2012, 3:43 PM
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I will say that there are very few examples where woman have performed very well under combat. Coming from experience with woman in the service I have been exposed too, like most woman are very EMOTION driven and when bullets start flying, I have seen that many duck and stay down. Most cry. This is from my experience and thats all. And you said you were in the army in 83-86. Might I ask what war you were so called exposed to in your time in Army. Marine corps in 2012 tried 2 females in infantry training and both failed with 1 female out in first week and the other only lasting a month. ts not just mental toughness and a majority of women lack the required strength.

Sorry just my opinion, not here to offend again I have seen it with my OWN EYES IN COMBAT.
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Old 12-31-2012, 3:43 PM
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I will say that there are very few examples where woman have performed very well under combat. Coming from experience with woman in the service I have been exposed too, like most woman are very EMOTION driven and when bullets start flying, I have seen that many duck and stay down. Most cry. This is from my experience and thats all. And you said you were in the army in 83-86. Might I ask what war you were so called exposed to in your time in Army. Marine corps in 2012 tried 2 females in infantry training and both failed with 1 female out in first week and the other only lasting a month. ts not just mental toughness and a majority of women lack the required strength.

Sorry just my opinion, not here to offend again I have seen it with my OWN EYES IN COMBAT.
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Old 12-31-2012, 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted by shellyzsweet View Post
(1.) While there is no merit as you say to compare them to, other then comparing military to military, our first responders are the closest thing we have in our society to compare to. Show me another line of work that uses military ranks, uniforms, strict guidelines, significant training time, and all while getting paid crap, rarely thanked, and go long periods with little to no sleep, walking into lord only knows, and being told to fix it with what you have, adapt, overcome, and complete the mission. (and absolutely loving every e**in minute of it but always finding something to b**ch about). I agree its NOT the same, but its the closest thing we have.

(3.) Tell that to all the women who have ever deployed to a war zone. You go ahead and tell them that they can't hack it.

(4.) No, we ARE talking about the small minority of women who can hack it. That (I believe) is the OP's point. No one said anything about lowering any standards. I believe the point the OP is trying to make is in her opinion if we can make the standards, we should be allowed to do it.

(2.) Lastly, sounds like you were a military person, you touched on how people can be tough at times, especially in extreme scenerios. Your also an EMT. When you started out in the military, and when you started as an EMT you didn't waltz right into it and were instantly tough. You learn to toughen yourself build that hard psychological armor up so that you could deal with the harsh realities of your duty. Its not something that just men can do. Women can do it too. Anyone can.
I work for a fire dept and sadly many woman in the fire dept and police department are there to help image. I have many cases where some woman couldnt pull there weight and it affected us all. Now also there are some men that cause the same. And in regards to female officers. Many i have encountered have power trips and I always think of the one time in back of my rescue we had a violent murderer hancuffed. At the stop light he started to fight and the female officer ran out the back door and left me alone to subdue the man ALONE. WHICH was not my job. Again there are woman that perform jobs as good as men, but the majority is NO.

Again this is from my own eyes.
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Old 01-01-2013, 1:48 PM
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No.

Im female. Would I die to protect my freedom, my country? Yes. But the front line stuff is touchy... When you have men and women together in any setting, it changes the dynamic just as when its all female or all male somewhere.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:18 PM
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First, some background: I'm a former Marine who just left active duty recently and a veteran of OEF (Afghanistan). I'm also a woman.

I clicked "no," but my answer is more complicated than that. Are there women physically and mentally capable of serving alongside men? Absolutely. However, I strongly believe that "can" doesn't always mean "should." Psychologically it isn't fair to the men. Also--our infantry has done a phenomenal job since its induction. Why should we mess with what works just in the name of "equality"? Because I'm sorry, but messing up the status quo to avoid hurting feelings is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. I'm just not convinced it's a change that would be a drastic improvement in the way we fight--and shouldn't that be the only reason we take action on this?

That being said, I had the privilege of working along several women who were in a FET (Female Engagement Team, called "Lioness" in Iraq). They were a team of Marines from varying jobs whose jobs were to interact with the women of Afghanistan since the culture forbids outside male/female contact. Several of my friends in the FET earned Combat Action Ribbons--they encountered combat same as the men. They were absolutely critical to the mission and did an amazing job. I have zero issue with this.

What I question the validity of is not allowing the men's opinion on this. I realize this is the women's board, and I would expect them to show respect and civility on this, as with all topics. However, if women are put as infantry--that's their wives, their daughters, their sisters. I say, their opinion is valid as it directly affects them as much as us.

Also, OHOD, thanks for your service as well.
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Old 01-02-2013, 7:00 PM
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What I question the validity of is not allowing the men's opinion on this. I realize this is the women's board, and I would expect them to show respect and civility on this, as with all topics. However, if women are put as infantry--that's their wives, their daughters, their sisters. I say, their opinion is valid as it directly affects them as much as us.

Also, OHOD, thanks for your service as well.
The topic has been discussed in the OT forum, ad noseum. With a predominant male opinion.

There is no validity needed here, I wanted to know what a womans opinion is without interruption from men. Sifting through pages of posts trying to find the opinion on a male dominated forum is especially difficult....especially when I don't know who the women are.

There you have it. No mystery, no conspiracy, just want to know your opinion.
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Old 01-02-2013, 7:37 PM
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my observation is the same as OHOD's and i applaud her for bringing the topic into the Ladies Forum.

but i will say, "WELCOME, RENEE!" there are very few women on calguns and not many of those have "served". your voice and experience is valued. if you do venture over into OT, wear your protective gear and go armed. it is not for the timid.

there are many good men on calguns but those that aren't, well, they aren't. there are some of those good men that do participate here in the Ladies Forum and we welcome them. but those that don't behave are not tolerated here.

the Ladies Forum was started by Mr K, the owner of this website, as a place for women to go and discuss "things" without having to deal with testosterone. as long as the guys remember that, they are welcomed. actually, there are a few that participate here that i never see in OT! they are the really really good guys.

stick around. get the lay of the land and know that you always have a home here in the Ladies Forum. we do look out for our own......
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Old 01-03-2013, 2:03 AM
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Welcome Renee, you arrived like a breath of fresh air. We have other women who are veterans here and always welcome their thinking. And we do have each other's backs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New topic:

In some cases we clearly ask for women's opinions only, and the men insist on jumping in. It's an ongoing issue here.

It apparently happens because the guys read the "New Posts" and often don't realize they're in the wrong place. Happens a lot. Doesn't make it right, and causes a lot of grief sometimes.

No one is sure what to do about this poaching, but if people get un-civil, I freely complain to the moderators.
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Old 01-03-2013, 3:55 AM
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I salute all the women who rose to the occasion of defending this great nation, whether in a direct or support role. Courage is important.

And as far as ability, oh nevermind, that's a no win...I don't want to sleep on the couch.

Women trained with firearms....Priceless!
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Old 01-03-2013, 3:56 PM
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I'd make a helluva great sniper.

So yes, if I could I would.
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Old 01-03-2013, 6:27 PM
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We are on the front line and we've performed well. Yes we should be there but that doesn't mean we are accepted as equals. Also, the women that went to Marine Infantry Officer Course- one was removed for medical and the reason the other one dropped has not been shared. Don't be so quick to judge for all anyone knows the second one dropped because her school seat opened up. After all the Marine Corps wasn't actually going to award them the MOS.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:11 AM
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Honestly I believe it should be up to each person. If they want to be there and work the same capacity, whos to say no? Mental and Physical ability is up to that person. I worked over new years and some of the calls we got were like a war. Retarded drunks and combative individuals. Was constantly asked if I was ok. I appreciated the concern from others, but just because I am a woman and am not very large, doesnt mean I am not capable. Have recently made job changes so many others may be concerned since I am still fairly new.

But I can only imagine front line combat and the horrors there of. But again, should be left to each their own, if they believe themselves capable.

Posted this elsewhere a while ago, like prosol and other LE/MIL related forums. Was met with a lot of hostile responses. Such as women arent strong enough. Dont have the endurance. Arent combat effective. Some were fine with general on the lines, but all were against the availability and oppertunity for entry and advancement in the Special Operations Community. High Speed Squirrels.

Ive for the last few years been making changes to go from what I was to how I am now. Simply because I was intending to make this employment change all along.

But a lot of people dont think a womans place is on that line. Not just in MIL but also today in Civilian Law Enforcement. Personally I think if anyone can meet physical standards and show they are capable. Why not. Not everyone should be on that line. Not just gender restricted. Look, some guys arent either lol.
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Old 01-04-2013, 3:22 PM
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We are on the front line and we've performed well. Yes we should be there but that doesn't mean we are accepted as equals. Also, the women that went to Marine Infantry Officer Course- one was removed for medical and the reason the other one dropped has not been shared. Don't be so quick to judge for all anyone knows the second one dropped because her school seat opened up. After all the Marine Corps wasn't actually going to award them the MOS.
Sorry baby sig, i read the report She failed out. I understand how many woman think it should be individual choice, I highly disagree, Woman DO NOT BELONG ON FRONT LINE.

Think about what that would do to the men. How many of us would be more mentally wounded by watching Woman(mothers of children) being shot on front line. It should not happen and prob will never happen due to society having trouble picturing that also. I am not here to say they cant SOME CAN BUT REALITY WITH MY eyes is most cant. Again many woman feed off there emotions. And to compare Law enforment and fire to combat is so far off. There are 2 diff animals and cant be compared. Again everything comes from experience with my eyes. DONT HATE ON ME FOR BRINGING THE TRUTH>
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Old 01-04-2013, 3:24 PM
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Originally Posted by onequickshift View Post
Honestly I believe it should be up to each person. If they want to be there and work the same capacity, whos to say no? Mental and Physical ability is up to that person. I worked over new years and some of the calls we got were like a war. Retarded drunks and combative individuals. Was constantly asked if I was ok. I appreciated the concern from others, but just because I am a woman and am not very large, doesnt mean I am not capable. Have recently made job changes so many others may be concerned since I am still fairly new.

But I can only imagine front line combat and the horrors there of. But again, should be left to each their own, if they believe themselves capable.

Posted this elsewhere a while ago, like prosol and other LE/MIL related forums. Was met with a lot of hostile responses. Such as women arent strong enough. Dont have the endurance. Arent combat effective. Some were fine with general on the lines, but all were against the availability and oppertunity for entry and advancement in the Special Operations Community. High Speed Squirrels.

Ive for the last few years been making changes to go from what I was to how I am now. Simply because I was intending to make this employment change all along.

But a lot of people dont think a womans place is on that line. Not just in MIL but also today in Civilian Law Enforcement. Personally I think if anyone can meet physical standards and show they are capable. Why not. Not everyone should be on that line. Not just gender restricted. Look, some guys arent either lol.
I agree that woman belong in Law enforcment if they can hold there own. My sister is a female LEO and is one bad *** chick and earned it. She is first to say many woman on LE do not belong.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:14 PM
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there is no such thing as a "frontline".
women soldiers have been dying in iraq and afganistan because the whole country is a war zone and there is no defined "frontline".
women are already clearing homes.
they are being blown up in trucks.
they are on the frontline each and every day.
i'm betting they even send out drones from colorado.
the old idea that there is a frontline is now a myth in modern day warfare.
the air force has women pilots flying in those war zones.
do a bit of research. its not that hard.
its not "should women be allowed" because its "women are already doing it".
I have to agree with mz

My first thought when I read the question about 'front-line combat' was the image of the men with rifles and bayonets, in the trenches, facing machine-gun fire.

mz's point about warfare having become more 'mechanised', technically sophisticated', and 'area-ubiquitous' with no defined front lines reflects the reality of the here-and-now......well, there-and-now, anyway.

Other than that, I'm just not qualified to have any meaningful opinion.

Sure, if I'd been in Russia, in 1940-41, was in the path of the invasion, and had the choice of doing my best as a sniper, and quite possibly dying, or hiding in a cellar, and quite possibly dying from an artillery strike, I'd have felt better about taking up the rifle, making up my sniper-robe, and, at least, trying to take some of the enemy with me, if I was to die anyway.

I have a hard time even imagining the level of fear that I'd have felt, and the level of determination it would have taken me to deal with that fear.

Back in the mid-'60's, the Vietnam war era, I was an ordinary, undistinguished, civilian munitions worker, one among thousands.

I could not have even imagined being capable of active military service in a combat situation.......maybe, just maybe, I could have done alright in an armorer shop or comms facility well behind the lines, or some such, if that really had to be.

That was then.........if today is different, so be it........I am ever so grateful that I've never been in a place where a war came to my location and I'd have had no choice but to be part of it, one way or another.

If there are now some numbers of young women who volunteer for jobs in a combat zone, well, more power to them........they are a lot tougher and a lot more brave than ever I was.

cheers

Carla
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Old 01-07-2013, 7:05 PM
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navycorpsman- I said I didn't know why she left the course. I was speculating to make the simple point that it wouldn't matter if they finish the course or not because they weren't going to be awarded the MOS. Just because she failed doesn't mean women are incapable so one example of failure shouldn't label all women as incapable. The rest is not specifically directed at anyone- Depending on whose studies you read women are better marksman than men. In my own experience I have not found this to be true but we certainly aren't inferior. At this point it is difficult to determine the "front line". I'm assuming that they poll is talking about infantry but aren't the rotary wing pilots on the front line? And the truck drivers (no jokes about truck drivers please and I wasn't one if that makes a difference)? And the FETs and the Lionesses? The female doctors and medics and corpsman in the trauma tent? You cannot tell me that women don't end up in the thick of it.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by BabySig View Post
navycorpsman- I said I didn't know why she left the course. I was speculating to make the simple point that it wouldn't matter if they finish the course or not because they weren't going to be awarded the MOS. Just because she failed doesn't mean women are incapable so one example of failure shouldn't label all women as incapable. The rest is not specifically directed at anyone- Depending on whose studies you read women are better marksman than men. In my own experience I have not found this to be true but we certainly aren't inferior. At this point it is difficult to determine the "front line". I'm assuming that they poll is talking about infantry but aren't the rotary wing pilots on the front line? And the truck drivers (no jokes about truck drivers please and I wasn't one if that makes a difference)? And the FETs and the Lionesses? The female doctors and medics and corpsman in the trauma tent? You cannot tell me that women don't end up in the thick of it.
Look As I said I am speaking from experience and shooting at a paper target on a range means nothing in combat male or female. I am sharing my experience with everyone on this thread. Woman are inferior to men in certain areas just like men are inferior in others. Awarded the MOS or not it showed that they didnt make it regardless. Your right it shouldnt be judged solely on those 2 but they were prepped and ready and training for it the way they though and they didnt. I dont wanna go back and forth. Bottom line, I have seen alot more not perform and very rarely seen a gung ho badass female. I am a corpsman with Marines and work with woman ALL the time, so again I only share my experience, not speculating.
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  #38  
Old 01-08-2013, 3:22 PM
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Would the guys please STAND DOWN regarding this issue?

Honestly it's a thread "only" for women. Let's please leave this thread "only" for women. A thread about women in the military already exists in the Calgunners in Service subforum and the negativity in that thread should stay there.

Thanks.
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  #39  
Old 01-08-2013, 5:02 PM
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its called "reading while male"......betcha many didn't even see the "ladies only" request. now i could go on about the why of that but i'm not in the mood to be flamed by the males that already resent that there is a "Ladies Forum" in the first place.
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masameet View Post
Would the guys please STAND DOWN regarding this issue?

Honestly it's a thread "only" for women. Let's please leave this thread "only" for women. A thread about women in the military already exists in the Calgunners in Service subforum and the negativity in that thread should stay there.

Thanks.
I agree. I defend everyone's right to an opinion, but I am sick and tired of hearing why women are LESS in this thread.

Gentlemen, we heard you. Now please stand down.
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