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  #1  
Old 12-24-2012, 2:09 PM
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Default Reason why FFL doesn't want p/u date to roll into 2013

I DROS'd a new AR on 12/21/12 and as I was putting my deposit down the shop owner told me that he didn't want me to pick up beyond 12/31/12 and into the new year.

Any reason why?
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  #2  
Old 12-24-2012, 2:14 PM
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You didn't ask the dealer?
I would encourage you to.
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  #3  
Old 12-24-2012, 2:31 PM
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I wanted to ask him. It was extremely busy at the time and I didn't want to annoy him by asking.

The only thing I can think of that makes sense is the sales tax hike on January 1st.
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  #4  
Old 12-24-2012, 3:33 PM
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If you pick up after 01-Jan-2013, then the sales tax would be the increased amount. It is based on when you pick it up, not when you started the paperwork, unfortunately.
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Old 12-24-2012, 3:51 PM
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That's what I figured. Thanks Kemasa. I think I can swing the extra few dollars in sales tax.
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  #6  
Old 12-24-2012, 3:57 PM
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The problem for the FFL is all the corrections that have to be made for the invoice, which is a real pain. Most systems don't allow for the sales tax to change based on when you pick up the item, so you might want to make the FFL happy and pick it up before next year.
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  #7  
Old 12-24-2012, 8:22 PM
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Where is this requirement documented?
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  #8  
Old 12-25-2012, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EBR Works View Post
Where is this requirement documented?
I would like to understand this as well. Not to re-hash some old "conversations", but if sales tax can change based on the pickup date then that would lend some validation that the "transaction" or "sale" isn't completed until the pickup occurs.

In a situation where I've already collected payment in full I don't understand why the pickup date of the firearm should change that unless the transaction is still considered an open sale until the pickup date is complete. In my books the payment portion of the transaction has already been completed in CY2012. Now if the payment is a deposit and the remainder is being paid in CY2013 than I understand why that would apply since the receipt will be dated 2013 vs. 2012. Maybe that's what is being referred to?
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  #9  
Old 12-25-2012, 4:19 AM
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This doesn't make sense; the 4473 is instant, NICS is instant (hence the "I") and the DROS is instant; just the antiquated 10-day wait is required in CA for whatever reason CA deems it necessary, but that gun is in your name the second it is 4473/DROSed, in turn, if something were a problem and you were a prohibited person, in that instant, you might have some serious troubles and explaining to do, not just a denial.

And many FFLs require the actual sale to be completed prior to processing the 4473 and DROS, meaning that the time-of-sale/time of tax is when all of this is initated, not upon pick-up; no "deposits" or "lay-away" allowed.

I have never had an FFL revise an invoice upon pick-up for any reason, whether it was a change in laws, or an increase in the DROS cost or tax changes. It's true that you have a second signature on the 4473 on pick-up, unless first signed at point-of-sale, but the first signature slates it into your name and commences/commits the sale. No?

Perfect example; when SB23 was passed, and AB50 were passed, plenty of people purchased and DROSED their guns well up until 12/31/XXXX with the pick-up not occurring until well into the new year after the law was already in force (and so long as before 30 days of your DROS ran out).

So how is that tax application any different than the above? By saying it is as above, that the tax and possession don't occur until pick-up, then the same could be said about grandfathering cases where the law changes DURING the 10-Day waiting period/30-day pick-up allowance, or a handgun drops off the roster during your waiting period, and all would be null and void; which in all cases, either ATF or the CA BOF/DOJ said was OK.

In understand tax-laws have their own vein, but all of the above seem to clearly cite the point-of-sale and day the waiting-period starts as the day taxes apply. This matter of applying the taxes in opposition to all the other exceptions above seems contradictory.

Last edited by The Gleam; 12-25-2012 at 4:24 AM..
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  #10  
Old 12-25-2012, 4:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
I would like to understand this as well. Not to re-hash some old "conversations", but if sales tax can change based on the pickup date then that would lend some validation that the "transaction" or "sale" isn't completed until the pickup occurs.

In a situation where I've already collected payment in full I don't understand why the pickup date of the firearm should change that unless the transaction is still considered an open sale until the pickup date is complete. In my books the payment portion of the transaction has already been completed in CY2012. Now if the payment is a deposit and the remainder is being paid in CY2013 than I understand why that would apply since the receipt will be dated 2013 vs. 2012. Maybe that's what is being referred to?

I think you've hit on the possible aspect
; a deposit scenario, sale not closed. Yes, if not paid in full and the dealer allowed a deposit, completion of the sale at pick-up in the new year would yield the higher tax and be the actual sale date.

As I noted in my prior post, I think if paid in full at inception of the DROS/4473 & 10 Day wait, point of sale is completed, and the taxable rate at that time applies. Pick-up time is irrelevant at that point (so long as picked-up within the required 30 days, and the DROS doesn't have to be run again?).
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  #11  
Old 12-25-2012, 7:24 AM
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Default closing

maybe he will be closing down
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  #12  
Old 12-25-2012, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EBR Works View Post
Where is this requirement documented?
here's an old thread that talks about it, https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=200321



Quote:
10.My customer has already ordered items and has paid for them. They will take possession of the merchandise after the tax rate increases. What tax rate applies?
A sale is deemed to occur when your customer takes title to, or possession of, an item. Consequently, the applicable tax rate is the rate in effect when the merchandise is delivered to the customer unless your contract specifically passes title to your customer at a different time. Thus, the current tax rate is the applicable tax rate if your sales contract specifically identifies and passes title of the items to your customer before the tax rate increase goes into effect.

If you do not pass title prior to delivery of the items, and you deliver the items after the effective date of the tax rate increase, the higher tax rate applies.
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  #13  
Old 12-25-2012, 1:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gleam View Post
This doesn't make sense; the 4473 is instant, NICS is instant (hence the "I") and the DROS is instant; just the antiquated 10-day wait is required in CA for whatever reason CA deems it necessary, but that gun is in your name the second it is 4473/DROSed, in turn, if something were a problem and you were a prohibited person, in that instant, you might have some serious troubles and explaining to do, not just a denial.

And many FFLs require the actual sale to be completed prior to processing the 4473 and DROS, meaning that the time-of-sale/time of tax is when all of this is initated, not upon pick-up; no "deposits" or "lay-away" allowed.

I have never had an FFL revise an invoice upon pick-up for any reason, whether it was a change in laws, or an increase in the DROS cost or tax changes. It's true that you have a second signature on the 4473 on pick-up, unless first signed at point-of-sale, but the first signature slates it into your name and commences/commits the sale. No?

Perfect example; when SB23 was passed, and AB50 were passed, plenty of people purchased and DROSED their guns well up until 12/31/XXXX with the pick-up not occurring until well into the new year after the law was already in force (and so long as before 30 days of your DROS ran out).

So how is that tax application any different than the above? By saying it is as above, that the tax and possession don't occur until pick-up, then the same could be said about grandfathering cases where the law changes DURING the 10-Day waiting period/30-day pick-up allowance, or a handgun drops off the roster during your waiting period, and all would be null and void; which in all cases, either ATF or the CA BOF/DOJ said was OK.

In understand tax-laws have their own vein, but all of the above seem to clearly cite the point-of-sale and day the waiting-period starts as the day taxes apply. This matter of applying the taxes in opposition to all the other exceptions above seems contradictory.
Let me guess, you don't own a gun shop let alone use a point of sale program? I know because nothing you are talking about is relevant in my store.

The way I run customer orders is I use Quickbooks Point of Sale 6.0. When ever a customer comes in to start DROS, I put their order on a sales order. The sales order is nothing more than a proposed sale. I can take their deposit and track their payments and what they are buying. It takes it out of my available inventory, but shows it is still on site.

Only when they come in to pick up do I turn the sales order in to a sales receipt. That is when the item actually comes completely out of my inventory as sold and the sales tax is applied and run over to my Quickbooks as me owning it since that is when the merchandise is delivered.

So what I am going to do is tell my customers if they are paid in full at pick up and want nothing else, I will pay their .25% tax increase. If they still have a balance, they can pay the increase. When I change my sales tax rate On January 1st, the POS (point of sale) shows the customer still owes money.

My POS takes care of all of this so it doesn't matter to me whether a guy picks up before or after 1/1/13. However, per the BOE, the sales tax and my POS won't count it until you pick up.
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  #14  
Old 12-25-2012, 2:03 PM
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Wes, I learn something new from you every day. I use QB POS 10.0 PRO and I never thought of creating a sales order instead of a regular sales receipt for firearm sales. This actually makes a lot of sense, but seems like it is more work since you have to go into POS at the time of delivery to close out the transaction. In my current delivery process, I only go into POS if I have a balance due, which I charge to a customer account instead of using the sales order/deposit method.

I might want to come out there sometime and pick your brain a bit on how you do things. For example DROS fee collection, sales tax on transfers, etc. Are you using bound book software? I use AIMI and it seems to work well, but has some drawbacks....

Cheers!

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  #15  
Old 12-25-2012, 9:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Let me guess, you don't own a gun shop let alone use a point of sale program? I know because nothing you are talking about is relevant in my store.
Well, yes and no - not anymore on the gun store. Had a gun store in Ohio well before Quickbooks or even "Windows" was a thought, but came to CA in the early 1990s and never looked back (though, after Gray Davis and recent changes, maybe I should have?).

However, what you are discussing is hardly applicable to all retail or gun stores - you are describing your single perspective no better than mine. But I have no doubt what you describe for your store is accurate and might apply to other stores, possible. I see your "point" (of sale) too.

However, by example, I am looking at my Turners Outdoorsman receipt from 12/20/2012 for two firearms I purchased. It's done. Sales tax charged, paid in full; nothing more to do. Even if I pick up after 1/1/2013, there will be no additional trips through the register (unless I buy something else, which would be a separate charge).

And if I wanted to add a long-gun at pick-up? Then they would charge the new tax rate for that addition only. They do these separate receipts per firearm; it's weird, but two are already closed out.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:31 PM
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Read the info from the state: If you do not pass title .... Title is passed when the DROS/4473 is completed AND payment in full in received.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:39 PM
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The real question is why you would want to wait longer than necessary to pick up your new toy?
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  #18  
Old 12-26-2012, 6:50 AM
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Originally Posted by socalblue View Post
Read the info from the state: If you do not pass title .... Title is passed when the DROS/4473 is completed AND payment in full in received.
this.


the 4473 isn't completed until you sign the 4473 at pickup.
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  #19  
Old 12-26-2012, 12:42 PM
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The problem is that you have different departments and each have their own view. The BOE has a view with respect to sales tax, the DOJ has its view with respect to sales and the BATF has their own view. The views can conflict.
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Old 12-26-2012, 2:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Let me guess, you don't own a gun shop let alone use a point of sale program? I know because ...

... merchandise is delivered.

So what I am going to do is tell my customers if they are paid in full at pick up and want nothing else, I will pay their .25% tax increase. If they still have a balance, they can pay the increase. When I change my sales tax rate On January 1st, the POS (point of sale) shows the customer still owes money.

My POS takes care of all of this so it doesn't matter to me whether a guy picks up before or after 1/1/13. However, per the BOE, the sales tax and my POS won't count it until you pick up.
Sounds similar to what the Sportsman's Warehouse does. For them, they actually require the full payment minus one penny to be paid. It's practically sold to the customer, but it's not paid in full until that penny is taken off, which occurs at the time of pick up. They don't usually charge for that penny, but that's how their system works to keep track of inventory.

For OP, it's probably something that has to do with inventory. It's probably still considered to be in inventory until picked up. They don't want the inventory to roll over into the 2013 calendar year (business tax purposes, not sales tax).
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