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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 01-16-2008, 11:00 AM
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Default Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

Well, if you look at the CA penal code, there are a couple exemptions to the AOW/SBS/SBR prohibitions in 12020. A couple of the 12020 exemptions do not require CA DOJ permission to acquire an AOW/SBS/SBR, just Federal NFA permission. If we follow the pertinent code (cleaned up to remove non-relevant code) regarding short barrel shotguns and rifles, we see the following:
Quote:
12001.5. Except as expressly provided in Section 12020, and solely in accordance with Section 12020, no person may manufacture, import into this state, keep for sale, offer for sale, give, lend, or possess any short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020, and nothing else in this chapter shall be construed as authorizing the manufacture, importation into this state, keeping for sale, offering for sale, or giving, lending, or possession of any short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.
12001.5 basically state that SBS/SBR are illegal unless allowed per 12020.
Quote:
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses ..... any cane gun or wallet gun, … any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container,… any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle ..... any unconventional pistol
12020a basically reiterates that AOW/SBS/SBR are illegal with the following exemptions.
Quote:
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
(2) The manufacture, possession, transportation or sale of short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles when authorized by the Department of Justice pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with Section 12095) of this chapter and not in violation of federal law.
(7) Any firearm or ammunition that is a curio or relic as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the items pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(8) Any other weapon as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the weapons pursuant to the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto. …. The exemption provided in this subdivision does not apply to pen guns.
12020b lists exemptions to the prohibitions in 12001.5 and 12020a.

12020b2 allows possession if you get a permit from the CA DOJ per 12095.
12020b7 allows possession if the firearm is a C&R SBS/SBR as defined by the NFA and is properly registered per the NFA.
12020b8 allows possession if the firearm is an AOW (with the exception of pen guns) as defined by the NFA and is properly registered per the NFA.

Quote:
ARTICLE 6. PERMITS
12095. (a) If it finds that it does not endanger the public safety, the Department of Justice may issue permits initially valid for a period of one year, and renewable annually thereafter, for the manufacture, possession, transportation, or sale of short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles upon a showing that good cause exists for the issuance thereof to the applicant for the permit. No permit shall be issued to a person who is under 18 years of age.
(b) Good cause, for the purposes of this section, shall be limited to only the following:
(1) The permit is sought for the manufacture, possession, or use with blank cartridges, of a short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun, solely as props for a motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment event.
(2) The permit is sought for the manufacture of, exposing for sale, keeping for sale, sale of, importation or lending of short-barreled rifles or short-barreled shotguns to the entities listed in paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 12020 by persons who are licensed as dealers or manufacturers under the provisions of Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code, as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
This is the code pertaining to DOJ-issued permits, which, as long as we comply with 12020b7/8, we are exempted from. So, if we are exempt ourselves from 12095 by complying with 12020b7/8, we still need comply with the NFA. We do that by submitting in duplicate, 2 sets of the NFA Form 1 or Form 4 along with 2 sets of fingerprints and photos. You will also need to pay the transfer fee for the tax stamp. The stamp costs $200 for any Form 1 (application to make an NFA weapon such as an AOW, SBS, or SBR) or a Form 4 (application to transfer an existing C&R SBS or SBR). An AOW on a Form 4 transfers for $5 instead of $200.

Part of the process is to get your CLEO to sign-off on your application. The CLEO is the Chief Law Enforcement Officer of your area, usually your Sheriff or Chief of Police. Other people are also acceptable to do signoffs per the ATF, such as the District Attorney or Judges. If the CLEO is unwilling to sign-off, which they can refuse to do for any reason, there are other ways to get an approved Form 1/4 without a CLEO sign-off.

Those ways would include submitting the Form1/4 using a Corporation or Trust. As a legal entity, they are not required to get a CLEO sign-off or submit fingerprints or photos. When you submit your Form 1/4 application, you will need to submit your Corp/Trust documents to prove that it is a legal entity.

The ATF will do a background check on you and if you pass, which if you can buy a regular gun, you should, they will mark the Form 1/4 approved, retain one of the Forms in the ATF's files, and attach a cancelled tax stamp to the other Form. That Form with the cancelled tax stamp will be returned to you as your "permission slip" from the ATF showing that you are legal.

There may be a couple minor points I missed along the way, but the overall procedure is laid out.

Now that we have the legal requirements laid out, we can get into the fun stuff. What can we do with this info? Well, once we know what we want, we either build our own 12020b7/8-exempt NFA firearm on a Form 1, or find a local Class 3 dealer that is willing to work with us to transfer the 12020b7/8-exempt firearm on a Form 4 to us.

Under 12020b8, we can build/buy an AOW, which are weapons that don’t really fall into the pistol, rifle, or shotgun mold. The most common example would be the short-barrel shotgun-type weapons that don't have a shoulder-stock and have never had a shoulder-stock. An Example would be the Serbu Super-Shorty. Some Combo guns with a shotgun and rifle barrels less than 18" are AOW.
Pen guns fall are AOW, but they don't fall under the 12020b8 exemption. They are specifically excluded from the 12020b8 exemption. But other types of gadget guns like cane/crutch/flashlight guns should be exempt.

Under 12020b7, if we want a SBS or SBR, it needs to be a curio & relic as defined by the ATF. A C&R is defined as:
Quote:
To be recognized by ATF as a C&R firearm, a firearm must fall into at least one of the following three categories:
1. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest;
3. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
If you find an existing C&R SBS/SBR, you can transfer it on a Form4.

For CA and Michigan (has a similar law requiring C&R SBS/SBR), The ATF has approved the making of an SBS/SBR on a Form 1 out of existing C&R firearms.seems that this method is no longer acceptable to ATF.

These exemptions only apply to AOWs and C&R SBS/SBR. There are no C&R exemptions for Machineguns, DDs, or AWs. There is a C&R exemption for 50BMG rifles. CA’s DD rules start at .60”, so if you wanted a DD between .51” and .60”, you would only need to get ATF approval, not CA DOJ.

The ATF will not approve any transfer that would violate state law.


AOW-legal hosts include Mossberg Cruiser PG-only shotguns or Remington 870 model 24823. Don't know of other modern shotguns sold with PG-only. New AOW option is a fixed-mag pistol build like a AK, AR, or HK51 with a Vertical Forward Grip. With a fixed-mag, it is not an AW and you can get an AOW Form 1 to put a VFG on it.

CA NFA trust atty.

possible ATF change on C&R SBS/SBR Form 1

List of public-friendly CA NFA dealers willing to sell to the public
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Last edited by ke6guj; 11-10-2011 at 4:30 PM..
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:10 AM
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I don't believe there is a C&R requirement, the info is under "(e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code".....Am i wrong?

(e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code reads:

Quote:
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopi View Post
I don't believe there is a C&R requirement, the info is under "(e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code".....Am i wrong?
The C&R requirement is if you want a SBS or SBR. There is no C&R requirement for an AOW.
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
The C&R requirement is if you want a SBS or SBR. There is no C&R requirement for an AOW.
Ahhh, yes. I have been tracking the AOW thing, i had prematurely ruled out the SBR/SBS weapons. So for SBRs, we could hypothetically use one of our C&R rifles, submit Form 1, and upon receipt of the cancelled tax stamp, cut our barrel down?
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopi View Post
Ahhh, yes. I have been tracking the AOW thing, i had prematurely ruled out the SBR/SBS weapons. So for SBRs, we could hypothetically use one of our C&R rifles, submit Form 1, and upon receipt of the cancelled tax stamp, cut our barrel down?
The ATF has approved that method in CA and in Michigan. Michigan has a similar "must be C&R" law.
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Old 01-16-2008, 8:57 PM
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Alot of folks, in other states, are setting up trusts and placing NFA items under them. I do not know what it takes to set up a trust, but it might be easier than a coprporation or LLC.

ETA:
ke6guj beat me to it.
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:18 AM
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Very interesting.

Does an LLC count as a corporation/legal entity in the eyes of the storm troopers?
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:20 AM
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Very interesting.

Does an LLC count as a corporation/legal entity in the eyes of the storm troopers?
Yes, but my question is whether or not a new and separate entity (vs. an established LLC) would be favorable if established solely for the ownership of these. Would there be any advantage to incorporate in NV?
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:43 AM
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Yes, but my question is whether or not a new and separate entity (vs. an established LLC) would be favorable if established solely for the ownership of these. Would there be any advantage to incorporate in NV?
Those would be questions for your lawyer. For instance, if creating a new LLC for just your NFA stuff would be a good idea to keep those assets separate from the exisitng LLC.

Incorporating in NV would give you access to non-CA NFA stuff, but those items would have be kept out of CA. You'd also have to have a registered agent in NV, and maybe register in CA as a foreign corp, I think.

A CA trust is easy to do and meets NFA requirements. You could use a lawyer to draft one up or use a program like Quicken Willmaker to do it. A lot of people have done the willmaker route, so much that the NFA now has a lawyer vet the trusts to make sure they are valid. If I was in another state where full-auto was legal and I had the $$$$$ to buy one, I'd probably spend the $$$ for a lawyer to draft one up. But if the lawyer fees are more than the cost of the AOW/SBS/SBR, willmaker should be good enough.

The Class 3 section of ar15.com has a lot of info on corps and trusts.
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Old 01-17-2008, 11:16 AM
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So... someone could buy a C&R break-action shotgun, pay the $200 tax stamp, and then take a hacksaw to it, or would it no longer be an exempt C&R because it was just re manufactured as an SBS?
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Old 01-17-2008, 12:43 PM
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So... someone could buy a C&R break-action shotgun, pay the $200 tax stamp, and then take a hacksaw to it,
The ATF has approved that method in CA and in Michigan. Michigan has a similar "must be C&R" law.
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Old 01-17-2008, 5:43 PM
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Why did you pick a break-action for your example? Why not a C&R pump 12 ga? Ithaca 37 maybe (haven't checked the list yet but I think it is at least 50 years old.)

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So... someone could buy a C&R break-action shotgun, pay the $200 tax stamp, and then take a hacksaw to it, or would it no longer be an exempt C&R because it was just re manufactured as an SBS?
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Old 01-17-2008, 5:52 PM
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Why did you pick a break-action for your example? Why not a C&R pump 12 ga? Ithaca 37 maybe (haven't checked the list yet but I think it is at least 50 years old.)
There are a few pump and auto-loading shotguns that are C&R eligible.
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Old 01-17-2008, 7:35 PM
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Why not a C&R pump 12 ga? Ithaca 37 maybe (haven't checked the list yet but I think it is at least 50 years old.)
An Ithaca 37 would be a good choice

From 1937 to 1957 would be C&R, pretty much any serial # under 704,000.

Other C&R guns would be Winchester M1897 and M1912, Remington Model 11, Browning A-5, even the first 7 years of production of the 870.
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Old 01-17-2008, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
An Ithaca 37 would be a good choice

From 1937 to 1957 would be C&R, pretty much any serial # under 704,000.

Other C&R guns would be Winchester M1897 and M1912, Remington Model 11, Browning A-5, even the first 7 years of production of the 870.
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My choice would be the Browning A-5. They are expensive to start, so we're talking at least $1000 after she's home in the safe. It would be worth it.
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Soon it will be clearly immoral to routinely violate the bill of rights like the California courts so enjoy today.

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Old 01-17-2008, 8:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
An Ithaca 37 would be a good choice

From 1937 to 1957 would be C&R, pretty much any serial # under 704,000.

Other C&R guns would be Winchester M1897 and M1912, Remington Model 11, Browning A-5, even the first 7 years of production of the 870.
Oh great....now we're gonna see a run on Ithaca 37s....!
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Old 02-28-2011, 7:36 PM
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Originally Posted by vandal View Post
Why did you pick a break-action for your example? Why not a C&R pump 12 ga? Ithaca 37 maybe (haven't checked the list yet but I think it is at least 50 years old.)
I already own a C&R remington 870 wingmaster, and have 2 barrels for it, maybe I will have to do this and cut one of the barrels down for home defense while i can keep the original barrel intact for hunting
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Old 02-28-2011, 6:42 PM
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Old 01-17-2008, 1:44 PM
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Question about C&R firearms:

How does a firearm become "certified" by way of #3? Are there any examples where a firearm is C&R eligible and ISN'T more than 50 years old?

Quote:
3. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
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Old 01-17-2008, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by shonc99 View Post
Question about C&R firearms:

How does a firearm become "certified" by way of #3? Are there any examples where a firearm is C&R eligible and ISN'T more than 50 years old?

i believe a ruger model is considered a curio (anniversary edition 10/22 or mkII)
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Old 01-17-2008, 7:12 PM
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i believe a ruger model is considered a curio (anniversary edition 10/22 or mkII)
Yes, I just looked that up and that specific edition of the 12/22 is C&R. So does that mean that I could buy one, get a stamp for it, then put a short barrel on it and convert it to FA?

Secondly, I agree that I can not find any exemption from the AWB for any NFA items. Other than a few, this eliminates a good portion of the available SBR’s and machine guns. They either have pistol grips, are center-fire and under 30”, have folding stocks, or a combination of all of those things and more. This is unless the SB 23 AWB does not apply to some of them by definition. IIRC, it states “a Semiautomatic center-fire rifle with…” or “a Semiautomatic pistol with…” The key word being “semiautomatic”. If the weapon were full-auto or burst (are there any burst C&R?) would it not apply based on the generic features because it is not semiauto? Just a thought.
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Old 01-17-2008, 7:45 PM
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Yes, I just looked that up and that specific edition of the 12/22 is C&R. So does that mean that I could buy one, get a stamp for it, then put a short barrel on it and convert it to FA?
Yes, there is a commemorative Canadian edtion C&R 10/22 that was Form 1'ed in Michigan as an C&R SBR. No, you can't convert to FA. No new FA's can be made for civilian use after 1986. And there is no exemptions in CA for FA that we can use with this method, only AOW/SBS/SBR .

Quote:
Secondly, I agree that I can not find any exemption from the AWB for any NFA items. Other than a few, this eliminates a good portion of the available SBR’s and machine guns. They either have pistol grips, are center-fire and under 30”, have folding stocks, or a combination of all of those things and more. This is unless the SB 23 AWB does not apply to some of them by definition.
The only way this exemption could help is if you already had a registered AW that was C&R that you wanted to SBS/SBR. Maybe in 10-20 years, this exemption may open up for some of the older registered AWs.
Quote:
IIRC, it states “a Semiautomatic center-fire rifle with…” or “a Semiautomatic pistol with…” The key word being “semiautomatic”. If the weapon were full-auto or burst (are there any burst C&R?) would it not apply based on the generic features because it is not semiauto? Just a thought.
If it were full-auto or burst, then you wouldn't have to worry about the AW rules, because you'd be dealing with the machinegun rules.

And yes, there are C&R machineguns. Anything made before 1957 or listed specifically, like the Stoner 63.

edit: Just to re-iterate, No you can't use this method to get/build a machinegun or suppressor. And you could get into unregistered AW areas if you aren't careful. This link is your friend, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/ , read it well. Parse everything you read carefully and then read it again There are exemptions that are available to us, just have to find them without triggering a prohibition somewhere else.

Last edited by ke6guj; 01-17-2008 at 8:00 PM..
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Old 01-17-2008, 8:07 PM
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Are there any other examples of C&R firearms that are more modern?

Come on people, this could be the beginning of a mini "OLL" type situation.
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Old 02-14-2011, 9:15 AM
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THIS THREAD IS AWESOME! Thank you so much for all the great info!! That's why I love this site!

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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
No, you can't convert to FA. No new FA's can be made for civilian use after 1986. And there is no exemptions in CA for FA that we can use with this method, only AOW/SBS/SBR .

The only way this exemption could help is if you already had a registered AW that was C&R that you wanted to SBS/SBR. Maybe in 10-20 years, this exemption may open up for some of the older registered AWs. If it were full-auto or burst, then you wouldn't have to worry about the AW rules, because you'd be dealing with the machinegun rules.
So getting anything FA is impossible in California? (Non-AW. I figure it's probably the case, but thought I'd ask just in case I didn't understand something. Sorry if it was already mentioned or anything.)

Old-school Gatling guns are legal though, right? Are they AOW? Or just don't count because they're not a modern weapon?

I kind of dream of having one one day, if they're legal. (And if I save up a lot of money, because the price is quite something. )


Again on the subject of modern FA guns, if I were to make a trust in Arizona or Nevada, could I buy FA guns to use at the range there as long as I keep them in AZ/NV and only use them when I spend vacations there?

I'd been considering this before, but had abandoned the idea thinking that the only way to buy FA guns would be if I was a resident in AZ or NV.
But if I can buy them in the trust instead, and leave them there, it would work? (I'd remain a CA resident, the trust would be made in AZ or NV, and I'd have some form of storage place there to leave the guns in while I'm not there, if all of that is legal.)

Would that legally work?
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Old 01-17-2008, 1:49 PM
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Very interesting...

I did not realize there was no specific rule against AOW's.
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Old 01-17-2008, 2:54 PM
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I did not realize there was no specific rule against AOW's.
Yup, AOWs are legal in CA (pen guns excepted) as long as they are properly registered with the Feds.
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Old 01-17-2008, 5:10 PM
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There are some nice possibilities with the AOW exemption. You could get a Taurus Judge rebarrelled with a smooth-bore barrel and AOW it. Hard part is getting a hold of it to file the Form 1 on it. How to get it in hand legally? Get it with a .45 only cylinder? It would still need to be on the Roster unless it was a single-action. Once in hand, you could file a form 1 to AOW it. Get the Form 1 approved, install the smooth-bore barrel, install a .45/.410 cylinder and convert to double-action. SOunds like a lot of work.
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Old 01-21-2008, 8:34 AM
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If you buy Quicken 2008 you get Quicken Willmaker 2008 for free.
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Old 01-21-2008, 8:40 AM
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Man, this is a dangerous conversation...
I think a little disclaimer is in order here that ANY and ALL "ADVICE" given here sould be taken with a grain of salt. Consult a lawyer or somebody else with a degree and buisness license to give you said advice BEFORE you act on it. Its a lot harder AFTER you get arrested than it is BEFORE you get arrested.

Just a little friendly advice.
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Old 01-21-2008, 9:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunrun45 View Post
Man, this is a dangerous conversation...
I think a little disclaimer is in order here that ANY and ALL "ADVICE" given here sould be taken with a grain of salt. Consult a lawyer or somebody else with a degree and buisness license to give you said advice BEFORE you act on it. Its a lot harder AFTER you get arrested than it is BEFORE you get arrested.

Just a little friendly advice.
Which is why this thread is in the 2nd amendment forum which has this
Quote:
2nd Amend. Politics and Laws Discuss gun rights and political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.
on every page, and I added this to the bottom of my OP

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The ATF will not approve any transfer that would violate state law.

This is not legal advice. I am not a lawyer, and definitely am not your lawyer.
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Old 01-21-2008, 7:16 PM
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True setting up a trust using Willmaker or legal zoom is relatively easy. The problem is that NFA items are not typical trust assets and the trusts that these off the shelf programs create are not created to deal with the many unique problems associated with the transfer or possession of these items.

If your only concern is the acquisition and not protecting your family from the penalties associated with making a mistake (250,000 and 10 years in jail) I would consider using quicken. You might read some of the articles on mistakes made with quicken and gun trust specific issues that I have written about. These issues are only dealing with the federal issues as in Florida there are no additional state restrictions like with California and some other states.
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Old 01-25-2008, 5:44 PM
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I have been giving this a lot of thought and doing some shopping around. I have come to the conclusion that the cheapest way to do this would be to order an AOW already made. Problem there is you need a class III dealer. Did anyone find one that would actually sell to civilians?

Secondly I wonder if an AOW shotgun would be considered a pistol under CA law?
Quote:
12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length. (2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."
If so would this make it so that you would need to treat it as a handgun in terms of it being on the roster (assuming non C&R here)? Would it be registered as a handgun in CA? Would it have to be transported like a handgun?

The transportation issue brings me to another questions. Exactly how are these treated transportation wise. The reading I have been doing says that you need to keep a copy of the paperwork with you and for SBS/SBR notify I think it is BATF if you transport it out of state. But within the state, are there restrictions to use and transportation like there are with AW’s? I didn’t see any but I may be missing things again. Could you take it backpacking with you? If you had it in your backpack would that be a concealed weapon like a handgun or be ok like if you had a standard 10/22 with a folder in there? If it were to be considered a handgun, and it were owned by a trust rather than you as an individual, and you got popped for concealed carry, would it be an automatic fellony being that it was not registered to you? So I am curious about these types of issues.

You need to have your name and city engraved/stamped in the reciever or barrel. What happens if you move to a different city? Do you have to go through another transfer process? If you had the chief LEO signiture do you need to get a new one for the chief LEO in your new area? Do you line out the old city and put the new one on? I am most likely going to be moving at least 3 times in the next couple years due to going to a new school for a masters, student teaching, and finally a permanent teaching position.

Does anyone have any idea how much it would cost to have a trust set up? Does anyone know of any lawyers in the area that are already familiar with this type of thing so that they do not need to spend a large ammount of time on research (time = $$$)?

Other than the signature, is there really any reason to go with a trust over just owning it at an individual? I am thinking about going to the sheriff, and seeing if I can get him to sign it. If he does not want to, maybe even tell him that I can and will do it with or without him and that his cooperation will just make it easier and just hope that I can reason with him. I am currently in San Joaquin County, has anyone had any dealings with our sheriff Steve More?

There were a couple of other things I was going to bring up but I got interrupted and cant remember what they are so this is enough for now.
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Old 01-25-2008, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RANGER295 View Post
I have been giving this a lot of thought and doing some shopping around. I have come to the conclusion that the cheapest way to do this would be to order an AOW already made. Problem there is you need a class III dealer. Did anyone find one that would actually sell to civilians?
I should be about $550 for my mossberg cruiser when I get the Form 1 approved. I can then cut it myself or send to Serbu to get super-shortied for $365. Compared to $725 for a Serbu Super-SHorty


Quote:
Secondly I wonder if an AOW shotgun would be considered a pistol under CA law?

If so would this make it so that you would need to treat it as a handgun in terms of it being on the roster (assuming non C&R here)? Would it be registered as a handgun in CA? Would it have to be transported like a handgun?
It may be. That is part of the reason I'm Form 1'ing mine, so I don't have to worry about trying to form 4 something and then find out that it isn't rostered, and I can't get it. I tried to get my local class 3 dealer to Form 4 a Super SHorty last year and he blew me off. At that time the roster didn't even come up, he just couldn't understand the 12020b8 exemption.

Quote:
The transportation issue brings me to another questions. Exactly how are these treated transportation wise. The reading I have been doing says that you need to keep a copy of the paperwork with you and for SBS/SBR notify I think it is BATF if you transport it out of state. But within the state, are there restrictions to use and transportation like there are with AW’s? I didn’t see any but I may be missing things again.
I didn't notice anything special either about intra-state transportation in CA. Yes, a 5320.20? is needed for any inter-state transportation. I plan on having complete copies of the Trust, ATF forms, and pertinant laws printed out and in a folder with me whenever I take it out.

Quote:
Could you take it backpacking with you? If you had it in your backpack would that be a concealed weapon like a handgun or be ok like if you had a standard 10/22 with a folder in there? If it were to be considered a handgun, and it were owned by a trust rather than you as an individual, and you got popped for concealed carry, would it be an automatic fellony being that it was not registered to you? So I am curious about these types of issues.
I don't plan on doing any of that type of carry, more of a fun range toy only, so I haven't thought about that too much. I know that some people have mentioned CCW exemptions in you were hunting or fishing, but I don't know the particulars of those exemptions. But if it is a pistol, could you image listing it on your CCW if you had one

Quote:
You need to have your name and city engraved/stamped in the reciever or barrel. What happens if you move to a different city? Do you have to go through another transfer process? If you had the chief LEO signiture do you need to get a new one for the chief LEO in your new area? Do you line out the old city and put the new one on? I am most likely going to be moving at least 3 times in the next couple years due to going to a new school for a masters, student teaching, and finally a permanent teaching position.
You mark it when it is made. If you move later on, it was already previously made, so it doesn't need to be remarked. And no, you don't have to get a new CLEO signoff since you don't have to do a new Form 1.

Quote:
Does anyone have any idea how much it would cost to have a trust set up? Does anyone know of any lawyers in the area that are already familiar with this type of thing so that they do not need to spend a large ammount of time on research (time = $$$)?
I'd check with the Florida Trust Lawyer for a referral to the CA trust lawyer, but if you went with Willmaker, its less than $100.

Quote:
Other than the signature, is there really any reason to go with a trust over just owning it at an individual? I am thinking about going to the sheriff, and seeing if I can get him to sign it. If he does not want to, maybe even tell him that I can and will do it with or without him and that his cooperation will just make it easier and just hope that I can reason with him.
A trust doesn't have to do fingerprints or photos, while a person does. It used to be that corps and trusts processed faster than a individual transfer, since there was no background check to perform. But with the added scrutiny of the ATF lawyers looking over the trusts to confirm that they are valid, the time difference seems to be less.

If they won't sign, dangling the carrot (sign and you'll know what I have) or show them the stick (if you don't sign, I'm going with a trust and you won't know anything). Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. On one of the other forums (AR15.com?) one of the posters is the CLEO and he can sign his own forms. However, he does his forms on a trust if that tells you anything.

Last edited by ke6guj; 01-25-2008 at 11:59 PM..
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Old 01-25-2008, 6:08 PM
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I am working with a lawyer in California to prepare a NFA Gun Trust for California that deals with the federal and local issues. Would someone mind explaining the specific issues and or laws that apply to the ownership of Class 3 items ( and the differences between the different types of Class 3 items ) in California. I dont need information on the NFA or form 4 unless there is are additional requirements imposed under CA law.

Thanks
Feel free to email me directly if you would prefer or post to this thread.

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Old 01-25-2008, 6:23 PM
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David,

The first post in this thread does a very good job of explaining CA NFA/AOW laws:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...39&postcount=1

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Old 01-25-2008, 6:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimbercarry View Post
so pretty much a B.A.R. would classify as a c&r could if i read all that stuff right you pay 200 and can shorten the barrel.FA is alittle confusing for me. could i possibly make it FA? also aren't some of the 1919's,m14,tommy gun,and some ak's c&r? would those be able to be done in FA? if its listed on the aw ban we still cannot bring it in as a c&r because its listed sorrect?
This was the first thing that I asked (about making something FA). I was told that was a no go. The C&R exemption is for SBS/SBR. AOW’s are all fair game except for pen-guns. None of this exempts a weapon from AW status if it is listed or has the generic characteristics.
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Old 01-25-2008, 7:21 PM
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There's nothing confusing about FA. If it wasn't in the NFA registry as a FA gun in May of '86, it can never be a transferable privately-owned FA gun. The only way to own post-May FA guns is as a dealer or manufacturer, or government entity, and that's very restricted. Owning one as a dealer requires some proof that some government agency (the only entities which can buy these things) is interested in possibly buying it.

The only way this will ever change will be with a court case. Many people (including me) are hoping Heller might eventually be used to fix this problem.
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  #38  
Old 01-25-2008, 7:30 PM
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Form 1 a C&R Shotgun using a trust and cut down the barrel & engrave once it's approved.

Doesn't get much easier than that.

The hard part might be trying to explain why it's legal to an LEO. That's where your approved from 1 with stamp comes in handy along with the info in the thread.
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Old 01-26-2008, 7:37 AM
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Although Arizona, here's some good info. on setting-up a trust for NFA. Including filled-out sample forms and helpful links.

http://arizonagunlist.com/How_to_buy...O_signoff.html

You may also want to do a voluntary registration with the state on your NFA item. Your confirmation letter may give your NFA item a little more legitamicy during an LEO contact. The serial # will also be in the system as registered to you.

FIREARM OWNERSHIP RECORD
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf
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Old 01-26-2008, 7:49 AM
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That is a well written article that walks you through using a Quicken trust to acquire a Class 3 item, but does not deal with any of the specific issues facing CA residents or trusts with firearms issues. For more on these issues you might check the articles below.
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