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Rimfire Firearms .22, .17 and other Rimfire Handguns and Rifles

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  #1  
Old 02-05-2013, 10:24 AM
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Default What feaures or combination of feaures are illegal on a rimfire rifle?

I have a ruger 10/22 which I decided to tacticool. It wasn't my original plan, I never thought of doing any changes on it. It all started when I added a millet red dot. Six months later and out of the blue I purcased a ATI Strikeforce Scorpion stock. I though it would end there until I went shooting and noticed my hand would start to slip when sweaty on the handguard due to lack of any real texture. I now want to add a foward pistol grip. The only so called evil features are the pistol grip and the folding stock. Would it be okay to add the extra grip?

I know about the length requirement when folded and my 10/22 measures 26 and a quarter inches when folded. If it is legal and perfectly ok, are most LE aware that rimfires are excempt from evil feature laws? I had a scare sometime back when some idiot ranger(have say it how it is) seemed bent on my 870 being illegal because of a collapsible stock and pistol grip and that my sks's were also illegal because of their folding bayonets. I was polite and explained to him my limited knowledge on the law and luckily a sheriff roled by and backed up what I was saying.
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  #2  
Old 02-05-2013, 10:25 AM
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only thing i am aware of is the high capacity magazine issue, but i could be wrong the laws are so convoluted and often totally useless but we all know that already.
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by zuchaka View Post
only thing i am aware of is the high capacity magazine issue, but i could be wrong the laws are so convoluted and often totally useless but we all know that already.
You can use 50 round capacity magazines with rimfire rifles in CA, there is no law preventing that. Getting a magazine with a capacity over 10 rounds is a different issue.

CA's AW laws do not apply to rimfire rifles. All you have to do is meet federal barrel length(16"), and CA OAL(26" from it's shortest fireable configuration).

The ranger complaining about the SKS and 870 was indeed an idiot.
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Old 07-01-2013, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
You can use 50 round capacity magazines with rimfire rifles in CA, there is no law preventing that. Getting a magazine with a capacity over 10 rounds is a different issue.

CA's AW laws do not apply to rimfire rifles. All you have to do is meet federal barrel length(16"), and CA OAL(26" from it's shortest fireable configuration).

The ranger complaining about the SKS and 870 was indeed an idiot.
This is a 10/22 Tactical-specific question: If the barrel is threaded (as on the 10/22 Tactical), between what two points is the "measurement" taken to arrive at the 16" minimum length?

A) Is it from the very end of muzzle brake to the "front" of the receiver?

B) Is it from the very beginning of the threads on the muzzle end of the barrel (where the brake screws onto) to the front of the receiver?

C) Is it from the very end of the threads on the muzzle end (where the brake mates up to the non-threaded part of the barrel) to the front of the receiver?

D) Is it "A" to the breechface?

E) Is it "B" to the breechface?

F) Is it "C" to the breechface?

Since a bullet exits through the threaded part of a barrel that is "shrouded" by a brake, I'm going to assume that the threaded portion of a barrel at the muzzle end is still part of "the barrel", albeit modified for a brake/suppressor/flash-hider/etc.

I think a definitive clarification of how/where the barrel of a firearm is measured per DOJ specs would help folks in California (and elsewhere) if/when they shop for folding/collapsible stocks to modify their 10/22s...and are able to discharge a round in its folded/collapsed configuration while adhering to the legal minimum of 26" in an operational configuration.
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Last edited by coverme2; 07-01-2013 at 1:03 PM..
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  #5  
Old 02-05-2013, 10:32 AM
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gotcha thx
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  #6  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:51 PM
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Hellfire....trigger devices for bump firing..slidefire stock.
Golfball launcher...
Shorter than 26in OAL.
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  #7  
Old 04-05-2013, 11:17 AM
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...Golfball launcher...
This is true? I wanted to try this out eventually.
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Old 02-05-2013, 1:17 PM
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According to the CalGuns FAQ:

Quote:
Are rimfire firearms and magazines subject to the large capacity magazine restrictions?

Yes. Rimfire magazines are regulated by the same laws as centerfire magazines.

The only exceptions are tubular rimfire magazines, such as those built into the Marlin 60 and similar rifles, and tubular magazines built into lever action firearms.

Last edited by whiskeyhotel; 02-05-2013 at 1:18 PM.. Reason: corrected text to read CalGuns FAQ instead of Wiki
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  #9  
Old 02-05-2013, 1:23 PM
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Originally Posted by whiskeyhotel View Post
According to the CalGuns FAQ:
Which has nothing to do with the AW laws. The AW laws and magazine laws are two separate issues. It's just that the AW laws include the use of a large capacity fixed magazine in a centerfire semi auto rifle(and pistol if I remember correctly), a rimfire rifle is not a semi auto centerfire rifle.
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Old 02-05-2013, 1:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
Which has nothing to do with the AW laws. The AW laws and magazine laws are two separate issues. It's just that the AW laws include the use of a large capacity fixed magazine in a centerfire semi auto rifle(and pistol if I remember correctly), a rimfire rifle is not a semi auto centerfire rifle.
The 10-round magazine capacity limit still applies to rimfire rifles. Otherwise my S&W 15-22 would have come with the standard 25-round mags that ships to states without mag cap limits.
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Old 02-05-2013, 1:32 PM
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Originally Posted by whiskeyhotel View Post
The 10-round magazine capacity limit still applies to rimfire rifles. Otherwise my S&W 15-22 would have come with the standard 25-round mags that ships to states without mag cap limits.
I don't get why this is so hard to understand...

Your 15-22 did not come up a 25 round magazine because it is illegal to import, manufacture, sell, etc.

It is not illegal for you to use a 25 round magazine with your 15-22. Please go read the penal codes as listed in the FAQ you referenced. The only time it is illegal to use a large capacity magazine in a rifle, is if it is a fixed magazine on a semi auto centerfire rifle. Your 15-22 is not a semi auto centerfire rifle with a fixed magazine.

edit: I'll save us all the trouble. http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/La...e_restrictions Nowhere is use or simply possession restricted.

You are confusing the high capacity magazine law with this: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/No...able_magazines and that does not apply to rimfire rifles.

Last edited by Merc1138; 02-05-2013 at 1:38 PM..
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  #12  
Old 04-05-2013, 1:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeyhotel View Post
The 10-round magazine capacity limit still applies to rimfire rifles. Otherwise my S&W 15-22 would have come with the standard 25-round mags that ships to states without mag cap limits.
Incorrect... You can use a 100rd mag in a .22LR as long as you legally acquired the mag.
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  #13  
Old 04-05-2013, 1:50 PM
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Can you legally acquire the mag in another state and bring it over state lines? Or only if it was legally acquired in cali?
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  #14  
Old 02-05-2013, 1:46 PM
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Merc is technically right. The key words in his first post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
You can use 50 round capacity magazines with rimfire rifles in CA, there is no law preventing that. Getting a magazine with a capacity over 10 rounds is a different issue.

This is why its easier just post the actual laws:

Quote:
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
[...]
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
[...]
(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.
Use and Possession are not listed under (2). It's all about how and when you acquire it in CA.

Also note the exemption under (B) ".22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device"
This is often misrepresented by people claim rimfire is exempt, or state "Rimfire tube magazines are exempt" Note that the PC lacks the term rimfire it states .22 caliber.


Quote:
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

12020 The PC that deals with "Large Capacity Magazines" (Like Merc said) is not Part of the AWB and is a separate issue.

Under 12276.1 Rimfire Rifles are not mentioned and therefore are not subject to "evil features"
Nor are they limited to 10 rounds by definition like semiautomatic centerfire rifles with a fixed magazine.
Nor are they mentioned under the need to be 30 OAL. So therefore they default to Federal barrel and OAL length limits: 16" and 26".

It is important to note though that under Semiautomatic Pistols it does not say centerfire like the rifle sections do, so it applies to semiautomatic rimfire pistols as well. (Ruger charger for example)
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Last edited by Chaos47; 02-05-2013 at 1:49 PM..
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  #15  
Old 02-05-2013, 1:58 PM
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Point taken on the use of pre-ban >10 round mags. I was only thinking of acquiring "hi-cap" mags as opposed to using ones you already own.

Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 02-05-2013, 2:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeyhotel View Post
Point taken on the use of pre-ban >10 round mags. I was only thinking of acquiring "hi-cap" mags as opposed to using ones you already own.

Sorry for the confusion.
There is no such thing as pre/post ban magazines in CA either.
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Old 04-05-2013, 8:45 AM
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Quote:
2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine
As it applies specifically to M&P 15-22 mags, since you can't mfg, import, give or lend, how do you receive a lrg capacity mag ie. 25rd that you can use or own in the great state of Kalifornia?

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Old 04-05-2013, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by letsgosteelers View Post
As it applies specifically to M&P 15-22 mags, since you can't mfg, import, give or lend, how do you receive a lrg capacity mag ie. 25rd that you can use or own in the great state of Kalifornia?

There is a lot of people who send their rifles to S&W for repair and got back a free 25 round mag with their rifle like a friend of mine. If you somehow go home and find a high cap mag magically sitting in your safe you have not broken any laws. Personally, I wouldn't bother using a high cap mag in my 15-22, not worth the potential hassles, but if someone does use one and get questioned by a LEO, they need to STFU and get a lawyer because possesion requires the burden of proof of aquisition, and no better proof that a running mouth.
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Old 04-09-2013, 9:09 PM
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Originally Posted by letsgosteelers View Post
As it applies specifically to M&P 15-22 mags, since you can't mfg, import, give or lend, how do you receive a lrg capacity mag ie. 25rd that you can use or own in the great state of Kalifornia?

What if I found one? Just minding my own business and saw it in a trash can. It is not illegal to possess the magazine or use it. It would not keep you from being arrested for having such and charged for the above, but the state would have to prove you manufactured or imported it. (give or lend is the act of providing to another).

But if you found a completely assembled one on a sidewalk, it would be yours to use and keep. You just couldn't sell, give, or lend it to anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffeeking View Post
Anyone have an answer to this question? Is purchasing a 25rd rimfire mag out of state for personal use and bringing it home to CA considered "importing"?

And if this is illegal importing, and one then "blocked" the mag to 10 rds for CA use, does this then make it legal?
Yes, if you travelled and brought a magazine with more than 10 round capacity back, that would be importing, even for your own use. Permanently altering the magazine to restrict it 10 rounds is legal at this point. Permanent is the key. Epoxy and rivets have so far, seemed to have met that definition.

I think though, all of this is tempting fate. Like I said, it won't prevent you getting arrested for it, and your first conviction at the hands of a local jury might happen, even if it is later overturned on appeal. Those of us with something to lose are probably best advised to simply not have anything on us that might serve as the basis of the test case. It can take a decade to get your conviction overturned at the high court level.

Last edited by Just_some_guy; 04-09-2013 at 9:15 PM..
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Old 04-05-2013, 2:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
There is no such thing as pre/post ban magazines in CA either.
Are you absolutly sure ? I have a fire arm magazine( rebuild kit) that has a date on it that says its pre-ban date , also says " For Law Enforcement Only ". It is a standard capacity magazine for a Double Stack 45 ACP.

With the magazine ban the company started putting the date on them as well as the other aforementioned info.

I also have a few Magazine Rebuild kits for a 10/22 that have a date stamped ( actually molded into) on them.

If there are no preban magazines in CA how come they come with a date that makes them "post-ban""?
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Old 04-05-2013, 3:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Capt.Dunsel View Post
Are you absolutly sure ? I have a fire arm magazine( rebuild kit) that has a date on it that says its pre-ban date , also says " For Law Enforcement Only ". It is a standard capacity magazine for a Double Stack 45 ACP.

With the magazine ban the company started putting the date on them as well as the other aforementioned info.

I also have a few Magazine Rebuild kits for a 10/22 that have a date stamped ( actually molded into) on them.

If there are no preban magazines in CA how come they come with a date that makes them "post-ban""?
Your magazine could have the the text of the dead sea scrolls on it, it doesn't matter. CA does not prohibit possession. This has already been explained a couple of times now quite clearly in this thread. Dates are for states that have date requirements(and even then it's idiotic due to the number of mags without a date, or the ability to change the date, hell someone could make magazines dated for the year 3025 if they want to), CA has no such requirement.

Read the PC, follow the PC. Do not add your own ideas to the PC, don't add silly gunshop FUD to the PC.

Quote:
Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
Nothing about possession at all.

Maybe you're confusing CA PC with the expired federal pre/post ban nonsense that doesn't matter anymore?

edit: I don't get why this is still such a highly questioned topic, considering how amazingly crystal clear the PC is(which is a rarity for a place like CA). If something is not stated to be illegal, then it is legal.

Last edited by Merc1138; 04-05-2013 at 3:05 PM..
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Old 04-05-2013, 3:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
Your magazine could have the the text of the dead sea scrolls on it, it doesn't matter. CA does not prohibit possession. This has already been explained a couple of times now quite clearly in this thread. Dates are for states that have date requirements(and even then it's idiotic due to the number of mags without a date, or the ability to change the date, hell someone could make magazines dated for the year 3025 if they want to), CA has no such requirement.

Read the PC, follow the PC. Do not add your own ideas to the PC, don't add silly gunshop FUD to the PC.



Nothing about possession at all.

Maybe you're confusing CA PC with the expired federal pre/post ban nonsense that doesn't matter anymore?

edit: I don't get why this is still such a highly questioned topic, considering how amazingly crystal clear the PC is(which is a rarity for a place like CA). If something is not stated to be illegal, then it is legal.
Originally Posted by Merc1138
There is no such thing as pre/post ban magazines in CA either.

This is a statement that speaks of absolutes, Read: There is no such thing as pre/post ban magazines in CA
So you are telling people that there is no type of magazine banned in CA ?

If so you are spreading FUD.

There was no mention that I made as to the legality of possession , the magazines I spoke of do have a pre/post date on them which would make them pre/post ban Magazines. And they are in CA , hence there are pre/post ban magazines in CA. Follow the logic of your statements as absolutes , which they were.

Stop passing FUD, or stop talking/writing/posting in absolutes that mislead people .
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Old 07-05-2013, 5:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Dunsel View Post
Are you absolutly sure ? I have a fire arm magazine( rebuild kit) that has a date on it that says its pre-ban date , also says " For Law Enforcement Only ". It is a standard capacity magazine for a Double Stack 45 ACP.

With the magazine ban the company started putting the date on them as well as the other aforementioned info.

I also have a few Magazine Rebuild kits for a 10/22 that have a date stamped ( actually molded into) on them.

If there are no preban magazines in CA how come they come with a date that makes them "post-ban""?
At this point, none of that matters. I personally have needed to change mag-bodies due to rusting of several of my old style non-coated Sig mags, and feed lip issues on other mags. Importing, building, etc... that's what is illegal.. not use, not possession.
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Old 04-05-2013, 9:58 AM
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if you find a 25 round magazine on the floor, then its a keeper.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:14 AM
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To my understanding, military members on Permanent Change of Station (PCS) orders are exempt from being considered an importer of firearms. That's what allows service members to bring their personally owned firearms (baring any outlawed features, etc). If that is true, could they "import" BX-25's from out of state and keep them for personal use?

I don't plan on doing this, just trying to figure out the mess if the California system. I walked into a sporting goods store this week in Wisconsin and walked out with a new Savage Mk II thirty minutes later, so all these restrictions are confusing.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0150r View Post
To my understanding, military members on Permanent Change of Station (PCS) orders are exempt from being considered an importer of firearms. That's what allows service members to bring their personally owned firearms (baring any outlawed features, etc). If that is true, could they "import" BX-25's from out of state and keep them for personal use?

I don't plan on doing this, just trying to figure out the mess if the California system. I walked into a sporting goods store this week in Wisconsin and walked out with a new Savage Mk II thirty minutes later, so all these restrictions are confusing.
As far as I know military do not have any exemption of 12020 for importation / personal use.

Anyone can bring a magazine into this state if it is disassembled into a magazine rebuild kit. Putting it back together in state would be illegal unless they are rebuilding a legally owned "large-capacity" magazine and do not end up with any more then they started.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0150r View Post
To my understanding, military members on Permanent Change of Station (PCS) orders are exempt from being considered an importer of firearms. That's what allows service members to bring their personally owned firearms (baring any outlawed features, etc). If that is true, could they "import" BX-25's from out of state and keep them for personal use?

I don't plan on doing this, just trying to figure out the mess if the California system. I walked into a sporting goods store this week in Wisconsin and walked out with a new Savage Mk II thirty minutes later, so all these restrictions are confusing.
Your understanding is incorrect. A military member on PCS orders is considered a resident of the state, and relinquishes certain things from their home state, such as firearms purchases. Technically if you PCS to Cali, you can't go on leave and buy a gun in your home state.

That doesn't stop people from doing do. But it is technically illegal. Likewise, when PCSing with firearms, you're not importing because you're moving. You're supposed to fill out the DOJ form for off roster handguns, I'm not sure about any other paperwork.

You can't bring listed assault weapons like the AR-15s so most people strip the lower and sell it out of state before moving, then buy a stripped ca lower. I believe >10 mags must be disassembled but I'm not positive.
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Old 04-09-2013, 7:45 AM
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Originally Posted by SgtMerc View Post
Your understanding is incorrect. A military member on PCS orders is considered a resident of the state, and relinquishes certain things from their home state, such as firearms purchases. Technically if you PCS to Cali, you can't go on leave and buy a gun in your home state.

That doesn't stop people from doing do. But it is technically illegal. Likewise, when PCSing with firearms, you're not importing because you're moving. You're supposed to fill out the DOJ form for off roster handguns, I'm not sure about any other paperwork.

You can't bring listed assault weapons like the AR-15s so most people strip the lower and sell it out of state before moving, then buy a stripped ca lower. I believe >10 mags must be disassembled but I'm not positive.
Unless the firearms are kept and used in a federal military installation and range your good to go. But good luck getting your COC to approve and or get your CO to approve and provide a signed letterhead authorizing storage of firearms on post/ in armory. If you live in base housing and not barracks, check with MP's or provost marshall of installation regualtions.

-From my experience, so please no civilians saying I am wrong. Thanks in advance.
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  #29  
Old 07-01-2013, 6:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0150r View Post
To my understanding, military members on Permanent Change of Station (PCS) orders are exempt from being considered an importer of firearms. That's what allows service members to bring their personally owned firearms (baring any outlawed features, etc). If that is true, could they "import" BX-25's from out of state and keep them for personal use?

I don't plan on doing this, just trying to figure out the mess if the California system. I walked into a sporting goods store this week in Wisconsin and walked out with a new Savage Mk II thirty minutes later, so all these restrictions are confusing.
Hello Felony, how about you ask a mod to delete this thread since its a violation of federal law to purchase a firearm in another state even when on military orders.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:29 PM
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Ahh, gotcha. Thankfully, I am PCS'ing out if California. I'm only here for school before reporting back to Wisconsin. Would someone need to fill out anything if there firearm us on the safe roster? I think I'm safe either way because I am only here for four months.

Sorry for getting off topic..
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Old 04-05-2013, 4:36 PM
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I have pre ban 30 round mags for my 10/22. I bought them in 1988, so there is no date stamped on them. It was before the state went nuts.
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Old 04-05-2013, 5:31 PM
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Old 04-05-2013, 5:35 PM
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This is a no-go for your 10/22(s).

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  #34  
Old 04-09-2013, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olhunter View Post
This is a no-go for your 10/22(s).

If you blocked those mags to 10rd would it be ok?? does crank fired count as semi auto?


on a side note i love to watch people argue over the whole preban/postban mag thing. i dont know why but it makes me giggle.

riddle me this...Your PREBAN mag gets crushed by a horse so you rebuild it with a body marked "LE ONLY" yet its still PREBAN.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmedCMT View Post
riddle me this...Your PREBAN mag gets crushed by a horse so you rebuild it with a body marked "LE ONLY" yet its still PREBAN.
Answer: It doesn't matter since the CA penal code has no provision specifying possession or use of "pre" or "post" ban magazines, thus using language referring to expired federal legislation is pointless.
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  #36  
Old 04-05-2013, 7:16 PM
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Why must so many thoughtful and inquisitive posts from an OP degenerate in to a s&*t-storm between two contributors who feel the need to pee on one another while the rest of us watch, hoping to learn something from the original post?
Growing up in NY, the proper term is 'take it outside'. PM, email, whatever but no one is benefitting by such wanton snits between two all-knowing-wannabe's.
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  #37  
Old 04-06-2013, 7:05 AM
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Sorry to say it but this happens nearly every time someone asks a question about what's legal and what's not here in CA. Some folks just gotta have the last word even if it has nothing to do with the original question. Sad but true.
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  #38  
Old 04-06-2013, 8:14 AM
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I'm sure this has been covered ad nauseum. Anybody run a search??? This topic seems to come up at least once a week.
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  #39  
Old 04-06-2013, 8:17 AM
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This is the same as the question on whether you can install a feed ramp to run AK mags in an unconverted Saiga. Some say yes, some say no. I recommend being on the safe side. Do you want to be the test case?
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:44 PM
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Been trying to get an answer on the whole "finding" situation but it seems that finding and keeping isn't a violation based on the PC?
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