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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 01-11-2013, 12:49 PM
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Default Why NRA failed with national address, per Alan Gura

Alan really breaks it down. They blew their chance to make gun rights a civil rights issue after listening to Alan in this video.

Which makes me wonder, why can't the NRA figure this **** out.

http://youtu.be/P9rsVL-M5Jw

(adding, I'm still a member and still urge people to be members)

BUT WHAT THE HECK NRA, New messenger and knowledge of how pop culture reacts to scary things is needed.
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Old 01-11-2013, 1:01 PM
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Dude the NRA has just begun the fight, they have been fighting for gun rights for 100 years I am sure they know what they are doing
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Old 01-11-2013, 1:14 PM
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Why doesn't the NRA HIRE Mr. Gura?

Love the ending. God bless Mr. Gura.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by navycorpsman View Post
they have been fighting for gun rights for 100 years
I am an NRA member since 1976, a contributor and support them whole heatedly but let's not engage in any historical revisionism.

The NRA has been fighting for gun rights for around 35 years if I counted correctly. The NRA helped write the National Firearms Act of 1934 (and to give them credit they kept handguns from becoming NFA weapons as was originally envisioned). The NRA also helped write the Gun Control Act of 1968. There was always a part of the NRA that is kind of like the elite RINO's of the Republican Party. The "I'm a gunowner because I own a shotgun and I support gun control" pap that we hear today from the likes of Andrew Cuomo and that contemptible Mike Thompson. It makes me want to support a ban on shotguns and/or duck hunting just to shut them up. Anyway, I digress.

In the mid-70's there were discussions at the highest levels of the NRA about moving out of DC (to CO as I recall) and becoming primarily a promoter of gun safety and an organizer of marksmanship competitions. "Saturday Night Specials" were the equivalent of "assault rifles" today and the "Old Guard" elites tried to get the NRA to support the ban on them proposed by Birch Bayh (D - Indiana).

The NRA as we know it today was pretty much created by Harlan Carter who was disgusted by the appeasers who ran the NRA at the time and helped instigate what came to be known as the Cincinnati Revolt that saved the NRA from being run by duck hunters and target shooters and helped it become the Second Amendment defender it is today. In fact, pick up an pre-1977 copy of the NRA Fact Book on Firearms Control and see what they thought of the Second Amendment at the time; it wasn't good. The proof is left as an exercise for the reader.
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Old 01-14-2013, 3:19 PM
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Dude the NRA has just begun the fight, they have been fighting for gun rights for 100 years I am sure they know what they are doing
I am an NRA life member since 1993.

After the shenanigans the NRA pulled to be involved with Heller and almost managed to screw up Heller, I don't share your confidence. For a large fraction of its history, the NRA has represented the interests of elmer fud hunters and almost nobody else.

The NRA tries to be on the forefront of gun rights defense, but I'll put my money with Gura and SAF on actually getting RKBA stuff done every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
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Old 01-11-2013, 1:27 PM
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Old 01-11-2013, 1:37 PM
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Oh please ...

As the often restated statement goes, "hindsight is 20/20". That's all Alan Gura is doing, giving hindsight. The truth is, and we all know this, the NRA is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. You can't have expected the NRA to come out and say anything that the anti's are going to accept during the emotional time after the CT shooting.
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Old 01-11-2013, 1:53 PM
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Oh please ...

As the often restated statement goes, "hindsight is 20/20". That's all Alan Gura is doing, giving hindsight. The truth is, and we all know this, the NRA is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. You can't have expected the NRA to come out and say anything that the anti's are going to accept during the emotional time after the CT shooting.
So true. Bunch of friggin' whining arm chair quarterbacks on here sometimes i swear. Biatch, biatch, biatch.....

Without the NRA we would probably be all shooting singleshots or worse yet, slingshots. So many Calgunners are such whiners and forget what was done for them 5 mins ago...depressing on here sometimes...i want to believe, but ugh....

Ok, whining can proceed now....
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Old 01-11-2013, 2:25 PM
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So true. Bunch of friggin' whining arm chair quarterbacks on here sometimes i swear. Biatch, biatch, biatch.....

Without the NRA we would probably be all shooting singleshots or worse yet, slingshots. So many Calgunners are such whiners and forget what was done for them 5 mins ago...depressing on here sometimes...i want to believe, but ugh....

Ok, whining can proceed now....
Nobody is saying the NRA hasn't been successful. Just that in this instance they did a piss poor job of advancing our cause. We don't reach pop culture by saying "its the video games making people go crazy", we reach them by saying coming across with real valid constitutional principles.
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Old 01-11-2013, 2:31 PM
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Oh God,

Its the Conservatives vs Libertarians - again.
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Old 01-11-2013, 3:05 PM
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Oh God,

Its the Conservatives vs Libertarians - again.
WHAT? It's 2016 already? Elections? We lost again because we keep dividing the vote?
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Old 01-11-2013, 2:34 PM
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Nobody is saying the NRA hasn't been successful. Just that in this instance they did a piss poor job of advancing our cause. We don't reach pop culture by saying "its the video games making people go crazy", we reach them by saying coming across with real valid constitutional principles.
And you expect the anti's to eat that right up, right? Seriously ... what did you think the NRA can come out and say that would be deemed correct by the anti's? The anti's will condemn the NRA for not what they say, whether wrong or right, but just for being the NRA.

Whether or not they did a poor job defending the 2A, the fact is, they did something. Do you think the press even listened or cared to listen to what the NRA had to say, let alone the fact that they already said they would not be entertaining questions?

Last edited by NytWolf; 01-11-2013 at 2:39 PM..
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Old 01-11-2013, 2:55 PM
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And you expect the anti's to eat that right up, right? Seriously ... what did you think the NRA can come out and say that would be deemed correct by the anti's? The anti's will condemn the NRA for not what they say, whether wrong or right, but just for being the NRA.

Whether or not they did a poor job defending the 2A, the fact is, they did something. Did you not hear the press's questions even after the NRA speech? From the nature of the questions, do you think they even listened or cared to listen to what the NRA had to say, let alone the fact that they already said they would not be entertaining questions?
Yep, nothing the NRA said or could say would have changed anything. Even keeping quiet out of respect for the souls lost and the grieving left behind was met with the headline "NRA Silent - where's the NRA on this? - why haven't we heard from the NRA?". Even the proposal to provide armed security at schools, something that uber liberals have long advocated and in many cases actually do (see LAUSD police) was met with derision. Simply because it was the NRA making it and that proposal didn't fit with the gun control agenda.

Obama's task force led by Biden is an even bigger joke. After 100's of years considering and implementing regulations aiming at reducing violence, suddenly a task force meets for a week or two, takes a couple of days of testimony and ouila! suddenly the solution is discovered and ready for implementation (starting next Tuesday).

And I agree with Kes above. People don't think all of this carnage up on their own, the more examples one sees in the external world the more likely that scenario will pop into your mind. Look at Holmes "I am the Joker" and it is clear he intended to emulate the character and took actions that the character is portrayed as taking.
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Old 01-11-2013, 2:40 PM
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It's a mixed bag.

  • Gura is, as usual, right from a civil rights issue (w/accompanying free speech matters - in fact, Leland
    Yee's 'evil games bill' was overturned on those grounds). Consistence of civil rights across the board
    helps all rights - and it helps gunrights falls into that pool of 'must be tolerated' in judicial mindset.
    .
  • Wayne didn't get that wise counsel from staff preparation, perhaps (likely) due to generational issues.
    It would be interesting to see what a top-notch professional external marketing consultant would have
    offered, given they're 'outside' and not in a proverbial 'echo chamber'.

    One looming issue is the 'graying' of NRA membermship. We need to recruit far younger - and this doesn't
    mean just getting nonrenewed gunshow membership.

    Recruiting from the 20-40 age group is esp. harder when you start blaming 'violent' video games many
    perfectly fine people have grown up with: I'd bet 70% of EBR buyers in CA have played Call of Duty, etc.
    - and they're gonna say "Que?" to leadership of an org telling them they're doing 'bad things'.
    .
  • From pure political practicality: it occupied airtime/discussion time and displaced attacks on guns. It gave
    something for politicians to substitute into argument frameworks instead of having to purely 'justify' guns.

    I already notice House members talking about this and these sentiments being echoed by ordinary non-gun
    folks in newspaper comment forums around the country.

    This alone may be useful in spite of the above items. It may have secured the House some.
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Old 01-11-2013, 4:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Bull-Puckey!
I've played video games for a few decades now and I'll tell you for a FACT as each new generation of game comes out they are more violent, more graphic, the game play rewards more and more amoral actions and the people who say it has no influence are full of crap up to their brown eyes.

The industry responds to what the market wants and as kids grow up 'stabbing the hooker to death so I don't have to pay her', and getting bonus points for it, they start looking for something 'edgier' because stabbing the hooker is just the norm.
Yes there is more glorification of violence in the form of video games but kids don't take that violence as a role model anymore seriously than our generation took westerns and war movies. I shot a heck of a lot of my friends with a cap gun and they shot me just as much after watching John Wayne kill a hundred or so Apaches or half the Japanese army and none of use turned into antisocial killers . I don't even believe that gangsta rap by itself has much if any effect. What has had a very-very-very serious effect is the drug law fueled and financed explosive growth of gangs and their effect on the culture. The same 'crime is cool because the bad guys have best clothes and cars and the hottest women' attitude we saw during alcohol prohibition but made worse by the 90 year duration and the amount of money involved. That's what's driving inner city violence problem and an inner city culture that embraces violence and the armies of prison hardened 20, 30, 40 somethings pulling their strings.

The other thing that's changed is that we emptied the contents of hundreds of insane asylums on to the streets and I'm not sure what we can do about that without opening a new civil rights can of worms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
It's a mixed bag.

  • Gura is, as usual, right from a civil rights issue (w/accompanying free speech matters - in fact, Leland
    Yee's 'evil games bill' was overturned on those grounds). Consistence of civil rights across the board
    helps all rights - and it helps gunrights falls into that pool of 'must be tolerated' in judicial mindset.
    .
  • Wayne didn't get that wise counsel from staff preparation, perhaps (likely) due to generational issues.
    It would be interesting to see what a top-notch professional external marketing consultant would have
    offered, given they're 'outside' and not in a proverbial 'echo chamber'.

    One looming issue is the 'graying' of NRA membermship. We need to recruit far younger - and this doesn't
    mean just getting nonrenewed gunshow membership.


    Recruiting from the 20-40 age group is esp. harder when you start blaming 'violent' video games many
    perfectly fine people have grown up with: I'd bet 70% of EBR buyers in CA have played Call of Duty, etc.
    - and they're gonna say "Que?" to leadership of an org telling them they're doing 'bad things'.
    .
  • From pure political practicality: it occupied airtime/discussion time and displaced attacks on guns. It gave
    something for politicians to substitute into argument frameworks instead of having to purely 'justify' guns.

    I already notice House members talking about this and these sentiments being echoed by ordinary non-gun
    folks in newspaper comment forums around the country.

    This alone may be useful in spite of the above items. It may have secured the House some.
Very well put!
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  #16  
Old 01-12-2013, 8:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mag360 View Post
Nobody is saying the NRA hasn't been successful. Just that in this instance they did a piss poor job of advancing our cause. We don't reach pop culture by saying "its the video games making people go crazy", we reach them by saying coming across with real valid constitutional principles.
I, for one, will say the NRA hasn't been successful. The very fact we are are having this discussion means they have failed. Had they been successful, no politician who valued their career would think of touching gun rights. The NRA has failed miserably at growing the base support for gun rights. As far as I can tell their focus has been on fundraising from the people whose support they'd have in any case. Instead of going on the offensive, they've simply retrenched their positions. Bunkering has become reflexive for their leadership and led to a myopic world view and hamfisted responses to gun rights challenges.

There are at least 40 million gun owning households in the US. NRA membership stands at a little over 4 million. Those two numbers are an indicator that what we have been doing is not working. If we can't pick up the active support of people who should be a slam dunk, we need to re-examine our strategy. I know a fair number gun owners who are not members of the NRA. The overwhelming feedback I get is that the NRA is not an organization for people like them. The perception is that the NRA is only for old white Republican men. This simple fact hurts us a lot.

The myopic world view and siloed thinking of the NRA leadership was evident in La Pierre's speech. The out of date cultural references were painful and painted an image of an out of touch, irrelevant organization. Instead of structuring a response that allowed future flexibility and appeared well reasoned, the NRA lashed itself to the school shield program, which anyone with a brain should have known was a non-starter. In talking to non-gun friends and many gun owning friends, I believe the NRA's response may well have done more damage to our cause than Sandyhook itself.

I had let my NRA membership lapse for several years. Like many gun owners I know, I concluded the NRA didn't want and was actively hostile to people like me. I realize now, that was a mistake. My response should have been to get more involved and advocate for change.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:14 AM
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So true. Bunch of friggin' whining arm chair quarterbacks on here sometimes i swear. Biatch, biatch, biatch.....

Without the NRA we would probably be all shooting singleshots or worse yet, slingshots. So many Calgunners are such whiners and forget what was done for them 5 mins ago...depressing on here sometimes...i want to believe, but ugh....

Ok, whining can proceed now....
You do realize the NRA has supported major gun control like the NFA, GCA, etc.
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Old 01-13-2013, 12:13 AM
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You do realize the NRA has supported major gun control like the NFA, GCA, etc.
Though the criticisms above your post are valid, but this is not. The NRA changed in the 1970's after the Cincinnati revolution. Trying to paint the current NRA with NFA & GCA is simply being ignorant of history.

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Old 01-11-2013, 2:07 PM
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Originally Posted by NytWolf View Post
Oh please ...

As the often restated statement goes, "hindsight is 20/20". That's all Alan Gura is doing, giving hindsight. The truth is, and we all know this, the NRA is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. You can't have expected the NRA to come out and say anything that the anti's are going to accept during the emotional time after the CT shooting.
This. It is far too late to start demanding major changes. We'd end up doing more harm than good. It could cost us everything we hold dear.
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Old 01-11-2013, 2:23 PM
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Go Alan.
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Old 01-15-2013, 2:22 AM
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Originally Posted by NytWolf View Post
Oh please ...

As the often restated statement goes, "hindsight is 20/20". That's all Alan Gura is doing, giving hindsight. The truth is, and we all know this, the NRA is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. You can't have expected the NRA to come out and say anything that the anti's are going to accept during the emotional time after the CT shooting.
You're quite right and that flies right over some peoples' heads...
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Old 01-15-2013, 6:08 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NytWolf
Oh please ...
As the often restated statement goes, "hindsight is 20/20". That's all Alan Gura is doing, giving hindsight. The truth is, and we all know this, the NRA is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. You can't have expected the NRA to come out and say anything that the anti's are going to accept during the emotional time after the CT shooting.
You're quite right and that flies right over some peoples' heads...
It has nothing to do with hindsight and everything to do with knowing good judgment and an effective media strategy. As far as I can tell the NRA has neither, and that needs to change.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by NytWolf View Post
Oh please ...

As the often restated statement goes, "hindsight is 20/20". That's all Alan Gura is doing, giving hindsight. The truth is, and we all know this, the NRA is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. You can't have expected the NRA to come out and say anything that the anti's are going to accept during the emotional time after the CT shooting.
This is the truth.

I would, however, like to see the SAF and NRA both sharing Mr. Gura's abilities. He does seem to be a generational talent.
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Old 01-11-2013, 1:44 PM
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The NRA leadership has done well for a very long time, and has been very effective since the Cincinnati revolt. I am not convinced that their leadership is prepared to operate effectively in a post Heller world.

This does not mean that we should abandon the NRA, but rather we should change the leadership to reflect today's challenges and opportunities.

Regards,


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Old 01-11-2013, 1:59 PM
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Gura is absolutely right that the attack on video games and movies was stupid and little more than an "old guy" response. He's also right that the better approach would have been a rousing flag waving a civil rights and personal freedom speech. Where I partly disagree with Gura is that we need to empower teachers by allowing them to carry a concealed weapon.
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Old 01-11-2013, 3:06 PM
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Where I partly disagree with Gura is that we need to empower teachers by allowing them to carry a concealed weapon.
I didn’t hear Mr. Gura reject this idea. I heard him disapprove of turning schools into fortified camps. I share that opinion and want to maintain our free and open society as much as possible.

That means accepting certain risks—risks that can be partially mitigated by a functional civil right to bear arms.
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Old 01-11-2013, 4:01 PM
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The NRA leadership has done well for a very long time, and has been very effective since the Cincinnati revolt. I am not convinced that their leadership is prepared to operate effectively in a post Heller world.

This does not mean that we should abandon the NRA, but rather we should change the leadership to reflect today's challenges and opportunities.

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I agree. We need to get away from partisan politics, or at least giving off that appearance.

We need a big ****ing tent.
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Old 01-11-2013, 2:21 PM
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Gura is absolutely correct in that trying to attack violent video games is seen by the anti gun crowd as "look, over there, someone else doing bad things".

Alan didnt give in at all and say "we need to ban assault weapons and magazines".

You can have a firm position, and not give one inch without acting like Wayne did.

It's almost as if the media knew wayne would do that, so they gave him this HUGE stage (EVERY single network I switched to that morning had his address) to let him come off like a loon on.
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Old 01-11-2013, 2:23 PM
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Bull-Puckey!
I've played video games for a few decades now and I'll tell you for a FACT as each new generation of game comes out they are more violent, more graphic, the game play rewards more and more amoral actions and the people who say it has no influence are full of crap up to their brown eyes.

The industry responds to what the market wants and as kids grow up 'stabbing the hooker to death so I don't have to pay her', and getting bonus points for it, they start looking for something 'edgier' because stabbing the hooker is just the norm.

The original Texas Chainsaw Massacre was the most shocking, grotesque and graphically violent movie in history at the time of it's release. Now with all the slasher/torture/mutilation flicks kids are seeing Texas Chainsaw Massacre can be shown on public TV uncut!

How much do Super Bowl commercials cost?
Do you really think that people will pay tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars for 15-30 seconds of air time if it didn't affect and influence people?

How many of the lying hypocrites telling us that their movies, TV shows or songs don't affect anyone have gone on to tell us as they win some award how proud they are that their art and talent has influenced so many people?

The NRA didn't 'fail' and Wayne LaPierre didn't misspeak, he told the truth and even gun owners have hobby horses they are willing to blind themselves over.
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Old 01-11-2013, 3:07 PM
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Bull-Puckey!
I've played video games for a few decades now and I'll tell you for a FACT as each new generation of game comes out they are more violent, more graphic, the game play rewards more and more amoral actions and the people who say it has no influence are full of crap up to their brown eyes.

The industry responds to what the market wants and as kids grow up 'stabbing the hooker to death so I don't have to pay her', and getting bonus points for it, they start looking for something 'edgier' because stabbing the hooker is just the norm.

The original Texas Chainsaw Massacre was the most shocking, grotesque and graphically violent movie in history at the time of it's release. Now with all the slasher/torture/mutilation flicks kids are seeing Texas Chainsaw Massacre can be shown on public TV uncut!

How much do Super Bowl commercials cost?
Do you really think that people will pay tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars for 15-30 seconds of air time if it didn't affect and influence people?

How many of the lying hypocrites telling us that their movies, TV shows or songs don't affect anyone have gone on to tell us as they win some award how proud they are that their art and talent has influenced so many people?

The NRA didn't 'fail' and Wayne LaPierre didn't misspeak, he told the truth and even gun owners have hobby horses they are willing to blind themselves over.
Kes, with respect, if we don't want them to play the scape goat knee jerk blame game, we can't either.

To my knowledge, there has yet to be a study that's cited any real kind of correlation between violent games or movies and more aggressive behavior in people.

It hasn't been my personal experience, either.

As a slightly off topic aside, "Killing a hooker so you don't have to pay her AND YOU GET BONUS POINTS" demonstrates a pretty clear disconnect in understanding from how modern games even work compared to older ones.
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Old 01-11-2013, 4:23 PM
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Kes, with respect, if we don't want them to play the scape goat knee jerk blame game, we can't either.

To my knowledge, there has yet to be a study that's cited any real kind of correlation between violent games or movies and more aggressive behavior in people.

It hasn't been my personal experience, either.

As a slightly off topic aside, "Killing a hooker so you don't have to pay her AND YOU GET BONUS POINTS" demonstrates a pretty clear disconnect in understanding from how modern games even work compared to older ones.
I am glad you posted your comment. Below is a statement by Dave Grossman, Lt. Col. USA (ret.) who is the author of On Killing, On Combat, Warri...or Mindset, and Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill

"So, the brutal, merciless, savage mass murderer of first-graders in Connecticut was another in a long line of avid video game players who turned their sick fantasy into our tragic reality. Surprised?

I train military and law enforcement nation-wide, on the road almost 300 days a year for 15 years. I was an Army Ranger and a West Point Psych Professor. An author of many very successful books on this subject. This is the perspective that I come from...

Bottom line: From a military and law enforcement perspective, violent video games are "murder simulators" that train kids to kill. They act just like police and military simulators, providing conditioned responses, killing skills, and desensitization, except they are inflicted on children without the discipline of military and police training.

Research on the background of our juvenile mass murderers show they have one thing in common: they ALL dropped out of life and filled their lives with nothing but violent movies and violent video games. The sickest video games and the sickest movies are very very sick indeed. And the sick sick kids who immerse themselves in this "entertainment" are very sick indeed.

Jonesboro in the middle school, Columbine in the high school, Virginia Tech in the college, and now this generation gives us Sandy Hook as adults…

The Sandy Hook massacre has been building for years. And there is much, much worse yet to come. (They are NOT "shootings" they are massacres ... five died in the "Boston Massacre" which touched off the American Revolution … six murdered in the "St. Valentines Day Massacre" … many times more were murdered in Sandy Hook and we hide the reality from ourselves by calling it a "shooting" … "shooting" is what happens on the range … a "shooter" is the guy who got lucky during deer season! These are brutal mass murderers, committing savage massacres unlike anything seen in human history.)

This has all been building up for years. Consider the stats on officers murdered in the line of duty in the US:

'08: 42
'09: 48
'10: 56
'11: 72

Anyone see a pattern here? Medical technology is holding DOWN the murder rate. The number of murdered cops should be going down every year.

These are criminals who practiced killing cops since they were six years old, every day of their lives, playing Grand Theft Auto, and now they are primed to kill cops as adults.

If we intentionally tried to raise a generation cocked and primed to kill, we could not have done a better job.

The answer? Parents MUST enforce the rating system. They MUST understand the danger. To do that, they must be informed by our media! And the schools must begin to educate their kids! Go to www.TakeTheChallengeNow.net to learn about a school TV-turnoff curriculum pioneered by Stanford Med School and demonstrated to cut school violence and bullying in half!

An "M" (mature, 17 and above ONLY) rated game is the same as an "X" rated movie! The people who manufacture the game say so. Their own industry says so! A "T" (teen) rating means no child under 13 should play the game. Period. It is a very tragic, horrendous situation when adults let their children immerse themselves in M rated games! Just like, sex, gambling, porn, alcohol, tobacco, drugs, guns, and automobiles: these are all things that adults must not give to kids!

Not all of the kids who play these sick games will become killers, but they will all be desensitized to human death and suffering, intentionally and realistically inflicted by themselves, for their own entertainment…

If YOUR child is one who commits a brutal crime, and YOU let them play these sick games, then the blood is on your hands too… (And YOU may well be the first one to die, as with this most recent incident.)

This is NOT business as usual in America. Never lose your sense of outrage that every kid in America has to do lock-down drills, practicing "hunkering down and hiding" for when kids come to kill them. Never lose your sense of outrage that all of our cops practice going in our schools and shooting our kids with "active shooter response plans." These things are necessary, they work, they deter violent acts and they can save lives and hold down the body count when it does happen, but they are not normal. This is NOT just another day in America. This is NOT "business as usual" in America… Something is very, very wrong.

And it is a world-wide phenomenon! Germany has had two mass murders in their high schools with body counts that beat Columbine. England had a massacre in the kindergarden class in Dunblain Scotland, tragically forecasting Sandy Hook. Canada had the Taber, Alberta school massacre. Finland has had three school massacres. In Norway the killer got on an island and killed all their kids. In China killers are going in the classrooms with knives and gutting and hacking the kids. In Belgium a sicko got in the day care center and hacked 12 babies in the cribs, dressed as the Joker form the Batman movie. (All those European gun laws made THEM real safe, eh?)

And we though it wouldn't happen here!?

And you think it's over now? The worst is yet to come. We will reap what we sow for a generation to come…. Until we stop teaching our kids to kill."
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Old 01-11-2013, 4:29 PM
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This has all been building up for years. Consider the stats on officers murdered in the line of duty in the US:

'08: 42
'09: 48
'10: 56
'11: 72
Damn, a data set of four years. I know I am asking for trouble arguing against such a compelling avalanche of facts, but I would be very curious to know what those figures were between 1960 and 1970.

I strongly suspect they wouldn't help Lt Col Grossman's argument.
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Old 01-11-2013, 5:44 PM
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Below is a statement by Dave Grossman, Lt. Col. USA (ret.) who is the author of On Killing, On Combat, Warri...or Mindset, and Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill
This Dave Grossman quack again? I already de-bunked his arguments in another thread, I'm glad others have already done so here.

Anyone who calls a video game a "murder simulator" has no more credibility than someone who calls an AR owner a "baby killer".
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Old 01-12-2013, 4:13 AM
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To my knowledge, there has yet to be a study that's cited any real kind of correlation between violent games or movies and more aggressive behavior in people.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...ed=0CC4QgQMwAA

^ There's a list of a number of scholarly research articles.
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Old 01-11-2013, 3:18 PM
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Bull-Puckey!
I've played video games for a few decades now and I'll tell you for a FACT as each new generation of game comes out they are more violent, more graphic, the game play rewards more and more amoral actions and the people who say it has no influence are full of crap up to their brown eyes.

The industry responds to what the market wants and as kids grow up 'stabbing the hooker to death so I don't have to pay her', and getting bonus points for it, they start looking for something 'edgier' because stabbing the hooker is just the norm.
I have to disagree. Games haven't gotten "more violent", there have been violent games around since the 80s. Many of those were worse than anything out today (custer's revenge and chiller come to mind). "More graphic", I'll give you that one, but that's only because the graphics themselves have gotten better, not because there weren't graphic games in the 80s. The two I referenced are worse, even with their bad 80s graphics, than pretty much anything you'll see today.

I'm guessing you are referencing GTA with the hooker comment, that game is rated "M" and children shouldn't be playing it anyway. It's up to their parents to ensure that they don't.
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Last edited by mosinnagantm9130; 01-11-2013 at 3:22 PM..
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Old 01-11-2013, 3:38 PM
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Bull-Puckey!
I've played video games for a few decades now and I'll tell you for a FACT as each new generation of game comes out they are more violent, more graphic, the game play rewards more and more amoral actions and the people who say it has no influence are full of crap up to their brown eyes.
That may be the case. Where's your evidence?

Until you have solid evidence supporting your case, assigning blame to anything with the intent of restricting liberty is an inherently anti-liberty approach.

Why do you think we're now having to fight for our most fundamental right? Look in the mirror. It's because there are millions of people out there who are taking the very same approach to guns that you are, here, with respect to video games.


You of all people should understand the value and, yes, the risks, of the liberty of free speech.

You can't pick and choose which rights you support and which ones you don't. They're a package deal, for if you can manage to take away the rights of someone else, they can turn around and take yours away as well, which is exactly what is being attempted at this very moment. Liberty itself is a package deal as well. Either take it or leave it.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Bull-Puckey!
I've played video games for a few decades now and I'll tell you for a FACT as each new generation of game comes out they are more violent, more graphic, the game play rewards more and more amoral actions and the people who say it has no influence are full of crap up to their brown eyes.

The industry responds to what the market wants and as kids grow up 'stabbing the hooker to death so I don't have to pay her', and getting bonus points for it, they start looking for something 'edgier' because stabbing the hooker is just the norm.

The original Texas Chainsaw Massacre was the most shocking, grotesque and graphically violent movie in history at the time of it's release. Now with all the slasher/torture/mutilation flicks kids are seeing Texas Chainsaw Massacre can be shown on public TV uncut!

How much do Super Bowl commercials cost?
Do you really think that people will pay tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars for 15-30 seconds of air time if it didn't affect and influence people?

How many of the lying hypocrites telling us that their movies, TV shows or songs don't affect anyone have gone on to tell us as they win some award how proud they are that their art and talent has influenced so many people?

The NRA didn't 'fail' and Wayne LaPierre didn't misspeak, he told the truth and even gun owners have hobby horses they are willing to blind themselves over.
This oversimplifies things, however. It isn't only the ever increasing exposure to violent images, it is also our enabling culture. Everyone has now been raised with the idea that whatever we do is "understandable" and someone else's fault. There is a complete disconnect with personal responsibility. If you commit heinous crimes, "it was your parent's fault" for how they raised you.
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Old 01-11-2013, 2:33 PM
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Yeah, the conference was badly handled and exposed the deficiencies of the public face of the NRA.
Having said that, it's more important to be an NRA member now than ever. The stakes couldn't be higher, which is one of the reasons why folks are offering critiques for the NRA.
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Old 01-11-2013, 2:39 PM
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Listen to him very closely.

He is criticizing how out of touch the NRA seems and how archaic they appear to a popular audience.

Hindsight 20/20 sure but the NRA gave themselves ample time to have a more thoughtful response like the one Gura gave in this video.

We need more polished speakers like Gura to represent us in the public eye. Although I still respect the NRA as leaders in our fight, their leaders seem to present a very polarizing picture at times. Could it have hurt them to have a woman speaking for them if not Gura? It would have softened the picture of the NRA as a bunch of old men fighting from a seemingly out of touch and OLD perspective.
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Old 01-11-2013, 3:08 PM
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Listen to him very closely.

He is criticizing how out of touch the NRA seems and how archaic they appear to a popular audience.


Hindsight 20/20 sure but the NRA gave themselves ample time to have a more thoughtful response like the one Gura gave in this video.

We need more polished speakers like Gura to represent us in the public eye. Although I still respect the NRA as leaders in our fight, their leaders seem to present a very polarizing picture at times. Could it have hurt them to have a woman speaking for them if not Gura? It would have softened the picture of the NRA as a bunch of old men fighting from a seemingly out of touch and OLD perspective.
You are forgetting one thing ... the anti's are not as logical as you would like them to be. They are driven by fear, not by logic. They are driven by what the media tells them, not by common sense.

Theoretically speaking, if you had replaced Wayne La Pierre's speech with Alan Gura's speech or something that he would have come up with, do you think the gun control agenda people would be swayed?

Let's put this into perspective. Just for argument's sakes, let's put the gun control agenda at -10 (minus 10) on a number scale and put the NRA on +10 (plus 10). An equal compromise on both sides would bring the entire gun control argument to a 0 (zero). Now, knowing the pro gun control people is unlikely to budge, so their position stays at -10 (minus 10). Now to the million dollar question. Did La Pierre's speech move the NRA's position to any less than the +10 (plus 10) that they started? If Alan Gura had spoke in place of La Pierre, do you think the NRA's position would move to any less than +10 (plus 10)?
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