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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:01 AM
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Default Oral Arguments happening now in SF - Question on Parties involved

I'm following the twitter feed for Calguns. I'm new to this, so please be nice.

Who are the following?

Callahan
Clement
O'Scainain
Thomas
San Diego (I assume 'San Diego' is SD County defending their policy)
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  #2  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by mikestesting View Post
I'm following the twitter feed for Calguns. I'm new to this, so please be nice.

Who are the following?

Callahan - Judge
Clement - Counsel for Peruta
O'Scainlain - Judge
Thomas - Judge
San Diego - San Diego counsel
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  #3  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:08 AM
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Thanks.
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  #4  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:28 AM
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Did Twitter Break? (@33 mins old)
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  #5  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:40 AM
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I believe arguments are over, but could be wrong(maybe all their phones died - lol) I have gotten a few tweets in the last couple of minutes from other sources. The last ones about the case were these:

Gene Hoffman: @CalgunsFdn Panel pushes on the point that victims with permits can better defend themselves.

Calguns Foundation: O'Scainlain, but criminals aren't being issued permits?!
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Originally Posted by Deadbolt View Post
watching this state and country operate is like watching a water park burn down. doesn't make sense.
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Team 6 showed up in choppers, it was so cash. Lit his house with red dots like it had a rash. Navy SEALs dashed inside his house, left their heads spinning...then flew off in the night screaming "Duh, WINNING!"
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  #6  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:52 AM
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Question: "Aren't criminals being issued permits?"
Answer: "No, sir. Convicted criminals are not being issued permits, and calling people criminals before they are convicted of a crime is just making up names for them."
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  #7  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by phrogg111 View Post
Question: "Aren't criminals being issued permits?"
Answer: "No, sir. Convicted criminals are not being issued permits, and calling people criminals before they are convicted of a crime is just making up names for them."
Wow. Just wow.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:35 AM
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I don't use twitter, is there an alternate way to get this information or a log posted somewhere with this info compiled?

And who asked this question?
"Aren't criminals being issued permits?"
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  #9  
Old 12-06-2012, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by kaligaran View Post
I don't use twitter, is there an alternate way to get this information or a log posted somewhere with this info compiled?

And who asked this question?
"Aren't criminals being issued permits?"
Twitter is now silent as all of those present onsite are now lifting a glass to celebrate the performance of our side.

We now must await the after meal report.
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  #10  
Old 12-06-2012, 3:16 PM
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Twitter is now silent as all of those present onsite are now lifting a glass to celebrate the performance of our side.

We now must await the after meal report.


I think you mean the after hangover report!
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  #11  
Old 12-06-2012, 11:45 AM
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You don't have to be a twitter user to see the tweets: https://twitter.com/CalgunsFdn

The first tweet about the case was 5 hours ago(And their first tweet of the day)...scroll down until you find it and the read the whole thing(bottom to top).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadbolt View Post
watching this state and country operate is like watching a water park burn down. doesn't make sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama
Team 6 showed up in choppers, it was so cash. Lit his house with red dots like it had a rash. Navy SEALs dashed inside his house, left their heads spinning...then flew off in the night screaming "Duh, WINNING!"
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  #12  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:30 PM
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Thanks for the link https://twitter.com/CalgunsFdn I just read it all. Gura is a frigging Rock Star!
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Originally Posted by Wherryj
I am a physician. I am held to being "the expert" in medicine. I can't fall back on feigned ignorance and the statement that the patient should have known better than I. When an officer "can't be expected to know the entire penal code", but a citizen is held to "ignorance is no excuse", this is equivalent to ME being able to sue my patient for my own malpractice-after all, the patient should have known better, right?
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  #13  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:41 PM
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Default Oral Arguments - audio

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/media/index_video.php

You must type "12/06/2012" in the Hearing Date box and click on search.
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  #14  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by non sequitur View Post
http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/media/index_video.php

You must type "12/06/2012" in the Hearing Date box and click on search.
Thank you so much!
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  #15  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:39 PM
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I assume there wasn't audio recorded or streamed?

The suspense is killing me...
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  #16  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:50 PM
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Twitter “post limited” the feed? anyone else see this? I guess there are too many posts coming in?
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  #17  
Old 12-06-2012, 1:08 PM
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Praying for a favorable decision. But look at how much resistence gun rights have met simce Heller and McDonald. Courts are scared to death of "expanding" the right. They don't want to be the first.
Judges hate making decisions without another case precedent. They hate it. I know several. They cannot stand "breaking new ground". And this is how they see it.
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  #18  
Old 12-06-2012, 1:09 PM
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Listening now... thanks for the link.
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  #19  
Old 12-06-2012, 1:32 PM
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Thanks listening in as well
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  #20  
Old 12-06-2012, 1:31 PM
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Listening to the audio. Many thanks to non_sequitur.

Early impression: Clement (the first lawyer speaking at length, it appears) does not do a good job framing his points when he speaks. He has all the necessary knowledge to win this case, but isn't putting the points forth in his verbiage in anything close to an optimal way. He recovered well in his extra time for rebuttal, or whatever. Maybe that's his strong suit.

2nd lawyer (Chapin?) is an effective spreader of FUD. The female judge seems to pwn him from time to time.

The 2nd lawyer is totally throwing the State law under the bus. He has all but said the State law is unconstitutional, and in fact dodged a direct question asking exactly that. That should be usable as evidence: An actor for the government claims the government's law is unconstitutional in a friggin court of law. But I'm sure it's not, and it's just accepted that he's trying to muddy the waters and whatever he actually says holds no weight.

The first speaker (man, Holcomb?) in the Hawaii case needs to be removed. Unworthy. He was totally beeyotched by the woman who seemed to have a stuffy nose. Proof to me that 2A legislation is often in the wrong hands. A painful beat-down for our side.

In the 3rd audio file, Gura's presentation seems kinda weak. I've never heard him speak before, and he didn't seem to be the master orator I had imagined based on the hype around here. Or maybe he wasn't bringing his A game? Maybe speaking isn't his strong suit? His opponent did the best job of any of the three, as least as long as you accept without questioning what he presents as facts...

In sum, it's really depressing to hear how the 2nd Amendment is treated. Phrases like, "There must be some way, some how, however restricted and limited by the State, to exercise the right..." from our side(!) make me believe the Framers are spinning in their grave at what we have become...
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  #21  
Old 12-07-2012, 1:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedrrracer View Post
In the 3rd audio file, Gura's presentation seems kinda weak. I've never heard him speak before, and he didn't seem to be the master orator I had imagined based on the hype around here. Or maybe he wasn't bringing his A game? Maybe speaking isn't his strong suit? His opponent did the best job of any of the three, as least as long as you accept without questioning what he presents as facts...
I'd respectfully disagree. Gura did more than a fine job of arguing the case and Yolo's attorney literally made up law as he went. If Yolo was the strongest of the three opposition counsel, then...

Quote:
In sum, it's really depressing to hear how the 2nd Amendment is treated. Phrases like, "There must be some way, some how, however restricted and limited by the State, to exercise the right..." from our side(!) make me believe the Framers are spinning in their grave at what we have become...
You're taking the opposition's bait of getting into the weeds. The bottom line is that either the Second Amendment applies outside the home or it doesn't. If it does, then we win and another case(s) will determine the sort of regulations that are permissible.

-Brandon
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Old 12-07-2012, 9:12 AM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post

You're taking the opposition's bait of getting into the weeds. The bottom line is that either the Second Amendment applies outside the home or it doesn't.
^^^ This.

It was so hard to not stand up during the oppositions argument and shout out "So, my life is worth LESS if I'm outside of my home??!?!?".

I bit my lip pretty hard.
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Old 05-24-2013, 5:18 AM
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^^^ This.

It was so hard to not stand up during the oppositions argument and shout out "So, my life is worth LESS if I'm outside of my home??!?!?".

I bit my lip pretty hard.
Question on this right here:

If you are implying that you were present at oral arguments in the gallery, why NOT stand up and shout out?

Lawyers pull **** like that ALL THE TIME wrt saying things they know that they can't get away with in a jury trial just to plant the seeds of doubt only to have them "stricken from the record". Hell they don't even wait until the jury is decided, they start right the hell away in jury selection!

So, why not stand up in the gallery and shout something like that? Worst that happens is the Deputy escorts you out of the courtroom? Or can you be fined for disturbing the court?

I'm not singling you out, I genuinely want to know, what will really happen if somebody yells from the gallery?
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Old 05-24-2013, 8:35 AM
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Question on this right here:
I'm not singling you out, I genuinely want to know, what will really happen if somebody yells from the gallery?
You get a 1:1 meeting with the bailiff very, very quickly. And you are ejected.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:00 AM
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Question on this right here:

If you are implying that you were present at oral arguments in the gallery, why NOT stand up and shout out?

Lawyers pull **** like that ALL THE TIME wrt saying things they know that they can't get away with in a jury trial just to plant the seeds of doubt only to have them "stricken from the record". Hell they don't even wait until the jury is decided, they start right the hell away in jury selection!

So, why not stand up in the gallery and shout something like that? Worst that happens is the Deputy escorts you out of the courtroom? Or can you be fined for disturbing the court?

I'm not singling you out, I genuinely want to know, what will really happen if somebody yells from the gallery?
Nothing good. Really, it would not help. The oral arguments are not made to a jury. Oral arguments are made to three appellate justicies who have reviewed the written briefs. They are not going to be persuaded by some spectator shouting pithy comments. So, if shouting out will not advance your cause, why do it?

The spectator who held his tongue did the right thing.
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Old 05-24-2013, 5:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardlyworking View Post
Question on this right here:

If you are implying that you were present at oral arguments in the gallery, why NOT stand up and shout out?


So, why not stand up in the gallery and shout something like that? Worst that happens is the Deputy escorts you out of the courtroom? Or can you be fined for disturbing the court?

I'm not singling you out, I genuinely want to know, what will really happen if somebody yells from the gallery?
I was there and IMO 2 of the judges were practically saying what you are saying a few times.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by speedrrracer
In the 3rd audio file, Gura's presentation seems kinda weak. I've never heard him speak before, and he didn't seem to be the master orator I had imagined based on the hype around here. Or maybe he wasn't bringing his A game? Maybe speaking isn't his strong suit? His opponent did the best job of any of the three, as least as long as you accept without questioning what he presents as facts...

I'd respectfully disagree. Gura did more than a fine job of arguing the case and Yolo's attorney literally made up law as he went. If Yolo was the strongest of the three opposition counsel, then...
I appreciate your disagreement very much. I want badly to be wrong! Keep in mind I'm speaking as a person who has absolutely zero idea about all this legal stuff, so it's really surface commentary -- how he came across as a speaker, since his facts are obviously spot on.

Among other things, I was really shocked to hear him say, "Y'know.." three times. Not going to earn a spot on the debate team with that, right?

He brings in results, and that's what matters. I just assumed such a person would be a public speaker out of The Devil and Daniel Webster or something.

Agreed on the Yolo thing, I caught a couple things that made me scratch my head, did some CGN wiki-reading, and was, "..this guy is spewing bull****!"

Why don't the judges call him out on that stuff? Are you allowed to just puke out whatever lies you want during orals without repercussions?

Quote:
The bottom line is that either the Second Amendment applies outside the home or it doesn't. If it does, then we win and another case(s) will determine the sort of regulations that are permissible.

-Brandon
On the subject of winning...do you feel that there's any "tell" from a judges tone, choice of timing on interruptions of counsel, and questions to counsel as to how they lean politically / personally?

If so, did you witness any of that during these orals?
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Old 12-07-2012, 4:28 PM
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Originally Posted by speedrrracer View Post
On the subject of winning...do you feel that there's any "tell" from a judges tone, choice of timing on interruptions of counsel, and questions to counsel as to how they lean politically / personally?
We know how they lean. They don't give a damn about the briefs, or orals. They want this case dead. That's how this circuit rolls.

The judges will carefully cherry pick from each to support the ruling they wanted to give from the start, in the hopes that it is good enough to have SCOTUS deny certiorari.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedrrracer View Post
On the subject of winning...do you feel that there's any "tell" from a judges tone, choice of timing on interruptions of counsel, and questions to counsel as to how they lean politically / personally?

If so, did you witness any of that during these orals?
At SCOTUS, it was pretty clear who was going to vote no incorporation in McDonald v. Chicago, the "Heller 5" were less easy to read which makes me think that they were actually impartial and ruling on the merits of the case.

To me that means if the judges ask stupid questions and seem to enjoy listening to the anti-gun lawyer talk about how bad guns are, they are going to vote against us. If they ask questions about the law, scrutiny and historical meaning of the second amendment, I get optimistic but at the reversible 9'th, I never know what to think.

The orals seemed to go well but the briefs are what counts and I've read briefs that sound like a slam dunk wind up losing so I don't know what to think there either.
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Old 12-07-2012, 8:37 AM
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Originally Posted by speedrrracer View Post
In sum, it's really depressing to hear how the 2nd Amendment is treated. Phrases like, "There must be some way, some how, however restricted and limited by the State, to exercise the right..." from our side(!) make me believe the Framers are spinning in their grave at what we have become...
That statement doesn't mean what you think it means. Arguing in court isn't like political speeches. The speaker isn't saying that the state greatly limiting and restricting the right is good or correct. He's making the point that even if we give the state the maximum benefit of the doubt and assume that the state is allowed to restrict and limit the right, their conduct *STILL* fails to pass Constitutional muster.
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Old 12-07-2012, 4:48 PM
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Gura's presentation seems kinda weak. I've never heard him speak before, and he didn't seem to be the master orator I had imagined based on the hype around here.
I didn't think anyone claimed Gura was a master orator, spellbinding and riveting. What they claim is that he's a master litigator, knows how to cut to the chase, knows his case inside and out, and probably knows his opponent's case better than the opponent.
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Old 12-08-2012, 4:15 AM
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I didn't think anyone claimed Gura was a master orator, spellbinding and riveting. What they claim is that he's a master litigator, knows how to cut to the chase, knows his case inside and out, and probably knows his opponent's case better than the opponent.
Agreed. Gura definitely shows up prepared, with a well thought out argument that he works hard to keep on track.

IIRC (which I often don't), Gura has mentioned before that we are best served in litigation in his opinion by narrowing the scope of what we're asking for and tailoring the argument such a fashion that we are focused on one or at most two specific arguments/concepts, which make it more difficult for the court to rule against.

(my analysis of the above, NOT from A. Gura)
By throwing in everything and the kitchen sink, we allow the court to pick and choose what it wishes, essentially providing the court with room to maneuver in ruling against our interests.
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Old 12-06-2012, 1:50 PM
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Audio linK:
http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...6/10-56971.wma
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Old 12-06-2012, 2:00 PM
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Just finished listening.

I know these things are always long and drawn out. Is there an estimate on the timeframe for a decision or is that too unknown to even guess?
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Old 12-06-2012, 2:50 PM
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Are there three different and separate audio streams(cases)? I thought they all are under one stream?

Edward Peruta, et al. v. County of San Diego, et al. found here: http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...6/10-56971.wma

Christopher Baker v. Louis Kealoha, et al. found here: http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...6/12-16258.wma

Adam Richards, et al. v. Ed Prieto, et al. found here: http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...6/11-16255.wma

Is this correct?????
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Last edited by mrrsquared79; 12-06-2012 at 2:52 PM..
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Old 12-06-2012, 2:56 PM
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yes three separate audio files
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Old 12-06-2012, 2:59 PM
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Quote:
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yes three separate audio files
Thanks!
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Old 12-06-2012, 3:04 PM
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I just finished listening to Edward Peruta, et al. v. County of San Diego. I'm not a lawyer or an expert on law, but I think San Diego got their ***** handed to them
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Old 12-06-2012, 3:18 PM
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Quote:
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I just finished listening to Edward Peruta, et al. v. County of San Diego. I'm not a lawyer or an expert on law, but I think San Diego got their ***** handed to them


Starting audio for HI case now.
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Old 12-06-2012, 3:08 PM
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They must be having one helluva lunch
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