Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Competition, Action Shooting And Training.
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-26-2012, 9:38 AM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,352
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Rob Pincus Counter Ambush Training DVD & Home Study Course

I got an emailed newsletter from the Rob Pincus I.C.E. Training outfit regarding a new program of his for "Counter Ambush" Training:

Announcement: New Counter Ambush Training book & home study course

Order: Counter Ambush by Rob Pincus

Counter Ambush: 5-Disc DVD Box Set: $147.

Counter Ambush: Certified Training Course: $247.

Has anyone tried these?
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-26-2012, 2:35 PM
ZombieTactics's Avatar
ZombieTactics ZombieTactics is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Roseville area, or wherever they pay my confiscatory rates for things only I know how to do (lol)
Posts: 3,684
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Not sure what to think of it yet. I appreciate Pincus' skill as a presenter and find myself in agreement with much of his training philosophy. I somewhat flinch (a pun if you think about it) at anything associated with USCCA or Tim Schmidt, though.
__________________
|

I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective.

Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE

Last edited by ZombieTactics; 11-26-2012 at 2:41 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-26-2012, 2:41 PM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,352
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I just ordered the full Counter Ambush: Certified Training Course. Hopefully, there are some nuggets of good packaged knowledge therein.
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-26-2012, 3:37 PM
GM_77 GM_77 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: California
Posts: 594
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

You take his course yet?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-26-2012, 3:57 PM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,352
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GM_77 View Post
You take his course yet?
If you're asking me, not yet. I have a very open mind so I'll be taking the Advanced Pistol Handling course in L.A. on August 8-9, 2013 taught by Rob Pincus himself.
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-26-2012, 5:16 PM
Clee's Avatar
Clee Clee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 394
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
If you're asking me, not yet. I have a very open mind so I'll be taking the Advanced Pistol Handling course in L.A. on August 8-9, 2013 taught by Rob Pincus himself.
$600!!! Yikes.

2 day courses from:
Vickers/Pannone/Hackathorn/McPhee/McNamara $525
Defoor/Harrington/Howe $450
Proctor $475

Seems a bit overpriced compared to other instructors with more real world experience.

Ram you're way more open minded than I'll ever be!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-26-2012, 7:53 PM
GM_77 GM_77 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: California
Posts: 594
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
If you're asking me, not yet. I have a very open mind so I'll be taking the Advanced Pistol Handling course in L.A. on August 8-9, 2013 taught by Rob Pincus himself.
Cool, hope you make some new friends ha-ha. Did you take a Tactical Response yet?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-26-2012, 10:41 PM
Rob Pincus Rob Pincus is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 26
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Hey guys... Thanks for the interest in the new book/DVD/Home Study Course.

It is a new program that I developed in conjunction with USCCA to give people a better understanding of HOW to train and why I think that a "counter ambush" approach is the best way for those interested in Personal Defense to approach the problem (as opposed to training in a way that presumes being "on balance" and "ready").
This is the first time that I am offering any type of distance learning course formally. I think this topic is important enough to justify it. I understand why people aren't as likely to take the time/effort/energy to attend a multi-day lecture series on the topic, but I think it is possible to take the lecture DVDs, the book and the home-study workbook and learn enough about the topic to pass the test we have prepared as a demonstration of successful completion. We'll see once people start taking the actual test, but I am expecting great feedback and results!

As for the pricing, you might be comparing Apples & Oranges. My fundamental 2 day course is $500... the APH is an advanced course and we cover quite a lot more material in that time period. The 2 day Combat Focus Shooting is a pre-requisite, and there are still some places we offer it for less from time to time because of existing relationships with the hosts that keep costs down.

-Rob

Last edited by Rob Pincus; 11-26-2012 at 10:44 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-26-2012, 10:46 PM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,352
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post

APH is an advanced course and we cover quite a lot more material in that time period. The 2 day Combat Focus Shooting is a pre-requisite.
Any chance of attending APH without the prerequisite CFS course?

For APH Course Eligibility it says:

Quote:
Must have completed a minimum of a one-day Fundamentals of Combat Focus Shooting course to be eligible.
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military

Last edited by ramzar; 11-26-2012 at 10:57 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-26-2012, 10:54 PM
Clee's Avatar
Clee Clee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 394
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
As for the pricing, you might be comparing Apples & Oranges. My fundamental 2 day course is $500... the APH is an advanced course and we cover quite a lot more material in that time period. The 2 day Combat Focus Shooting is a pre-requisite, and there are still some places we offer it for less from time to time because of existing relationships with the hosts that keep costs down.

-Rob
Actually the instructor prices I quoted are also advanced course pricing with the exception being Vickers CQB courses which are significantly higher or McPhee Aerial shooting courses which obviously demand a higher cost.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-26-2012, 11:07 PM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,352
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clee View Post
Actually the instructor prices I quoted are also advanced course pricing with the exception being Vickers CQB courses which are significantly higher or McPhee Aerial shooting courses which obviously demand a higher cost.
This is true. Both the Ken Hackathorn Advanced Handgun in October 2012 (AAR) and the Kyle Defoor Advanced Handgun in September 2012 (AAR) that I completed cost only $450 for 2 days.
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military

Last edited by ramzar; 11-26-2012 at 11:12 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-04-2012, 4:51 PM
Rob Pincus Rob Pincus is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 26
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clee View Post
Actually the instructor prices I quoted are also advanced course pricing with the exception being Vickers CQB courses which are significantly higher or McPhee Aerial shooting courses which obviously demand a higher cost.

Surprised they are so low, honestly. What does Defoor/Vickers/Howe charge for their first level 2 day pistol courses?
Also, what are the class sizes? I limit mine to 12 students. I've seen some of the newer guys in the industry run classes with over 20 students at a time...

Quote:
Any chance of attending APH without the prerequisite CFS course?
No. It's a safety/technique issue. I don't want to take the time to have to teach ready position and presentation from the holster or have to worry about re-explaining certain course protocols and procedures. It takes away from the experience for those who are following on from CFS... and just eats time from an already full schedule. There would also be a lot of conceptual questions likely to come up that are addressed in CFS. I used to experiment with letting guys with long training resumes in, but it never works. CFS is a distinct methodology.

Quote:
Have you taken SouthNarc ECQC course? If so I'd be intrested to see what you think of that compared to the Counter Ambush Course.
That's like saying "Have you taken a physics class from Stephen Hawking? I'll be interested in hearing what you think of the guitar lesson from Eddie Van Halen."
Craig's ECQC course compares with my ECQT Course... but the CAT Home Study course is conceptual. Honestly, it explains the need for either Craig's or my in-person Close Quarters classes....

-RJP

Last edited by Rob Pincus; 12-04-2012 at 4:56 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-04-2012, 6:27 PM
GM_77 GM_77 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: California
Posts: 594
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
That's like saying "Have you taken a physics class from Stephen Hawking? I'll be interested in hearing what you think of the guitar lesson from Eddie Van Halen."
Craig's ECQC course compares with my ECQT Course... but the CAT Home Study course is conceptual. Honestly, it explains the need for either Craig's or my in-person Close Quarters classes....

-RJP
Because Craig's course and teaching ability is phenomenal I'm going to go with Walter Lewin over Stephen Hawking, but I get the analogy. I forgot that Shivworks MUC & ECQC are separate courses but when I took it, it was done on consecutive days and there was some MUC in the last ECQC evolution. I guess what I really meant was MUC instead of ECQC.

Last edited by GM_77; 12-04-2012 at 6:30 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-04-2012, 8:18 PM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,352
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post

Surprised they are so low, honestly. What does Defoor/Vickers/Howe charge for their first level 2 day pistol courses?
Also, what are the class sizes? I limit mine to 12 students. I've seen some of the newer guys in the industry run classes with over 20 students at a time...
They charge mostly around $200 to $250 per day for either level classes.

Limiting classes has become an issue mostly in highly student-populated areas especially like Southern California. There are no absolutes. The same 2-day Kyle Defoor Advanced Handgun class in SoCal with 20+ students had only 12 in Florida within a few weeks of each other both costing $450.

Some who proclaim on limiting the number of students are in effect only capable of limited number of students period.

The trend is in more top tier instructors limiting their student count to 15 or less. This is a good thing. Hope this will continue in large urban areas.
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-17-2012, 8:21 AM
va_dinger's Avatar
va_dinger va_dinger is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 606
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
Surprised they are so low, honestly. What does Defoor/Vickers/Howe charge for their first level 2 day pistol courses?
Why exactly would that matter?

All three of them are Tier 1 Special Operations veterans which means they have been vetted and received the finest training money can buy, proven world-class shooters, who have in fact been in combat.

You were a LEO for a very short time, admin at the Valhalla Training Center, and then started your own company (Hiring a Ranger & SEAL to stand next to you for your original company instructor photos), then turned yourself into a Youtube star w/ videos you do yourself.

Last I heard you don't even carry a gun in your classes and demo nothing. Back in the day you did demo's into the berm.

Should you're name be mentioned in the same breath as a Vickers, Lamb, Defoor, McPhee, Howe, Pannone, McNamara, Harrington, etc?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
Also, what are the class sizes? I limit mine to 12 students. I've seen some of the newer guys in the industry run classes with over 20 students at a time...
I've seen plenty of class photos from you with more than 12 students.

Nice try salesman.....You are slick, I will give you that.

IMO: Most of the time when an instructor states such a low student to instructor ratio as a sales pitch it's ONLY because that's all they could get to sign-up..

When they do it goes out the windown.

Try again.
__________________
Paul A. Hotaling
Alias Training & Security Services, LLC
Paul@aliastraining.com
757-985-9586
www.aliastraining.com
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-27-2012, 6:57 PM
Rincus Rincus is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: McDonaldland
Posts: 22
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Counter Ambush: Certified Training Course: $247
Does this include a (fill your name in here) certification?
Or a franchise opportunity ?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-29-2012, 8:48 PM
Rincus Rincus is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: McDonaldland
Posts: 22
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

End of Watch
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-30-2012, 12:08 PM
jessegpresley's Avatar
jessegpresley jessegpresley is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: California
Posts: 3,870
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

2 days with Bob Vogel is $450 but 2 days with Pincus is $500?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-30-2012, 2:11 PM
Rincus Rincus is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: McDonaldland
Posts: 22
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessegpresley View Post
2 days with Bob Vogel is $450 but 2 days with Pincus is $500?
but you don't understand the science.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-04-2012, 6:32 PM
Rob Pincus Rob Pincus is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 26
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Still very different courses... still the same relationship between CAT and ECQC. I don't teach a MUC type course. There are some aspects of MUC that address concerns I talk about int he CAT Book/DVD Lectures in regard to the traditional way that "awareness" and "focus" are addressed in training. Craig's version of moving & turning offline when approached, for example.

For those of you not familiar with this work from Craig, he covered a lot of it in a DVD we did together last year as part of the Personal Defense Network series.

CAT is about WHY you should train for being 'off balance' and HOW to go about doing that in a conceptual way. There really hasn't been anything like it offered before. It isn't like any physical course. It helps people learn about actual fights, how information gets processed, how learning is best done for the skills we need to develop and then some ideas on how to determine what gear and skills to collect. The home study course includes my new book, the CAT Lecture DVDs and workbook that helps you learn and apply the lessons and the some other material. After you've completed the work, you can take an online test (90% required for certificate of completion).
-RJP

Last edited by Rob Pincus; 12-04-2012 at 6:35 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-04-2012, 6:51 PM
GM_77 GM_77 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: California
Posts: 594
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Ah ok, I understand now. Thanks for the responses.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-04-2012, 6:53 PM
Rob Pincus Rob Pincus is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 26
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

No problem... I understand why some people are seeing the title and making some wrong guesses about what the content is. Trying to set the record straight!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-04-2012, 7:29 PM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,352
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Even though the material within the Pincus Counter Ambush Training (CAT) may only explain the need for such training, I'm looking forward to perusing, watching and digesting the conceptual material (apparently it should arrive within the week in partial shipments due to a fulfillment error). I keep a healthy open-minded, analytical albeit skeptical approach to such material as I do to most such "distinct methodology".
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-04-2012, 7:35 PM
Rob Pincus Rob Pincus is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 26
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Glad to hear it ramzar.... I'm looking forward to your thoughts. The skeptical student is usually the best.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-04-2012, 8:03 PM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,352
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
Glad to hear it ramzar.... I'm looking forward to your thoughts. The skeptical student is usually the best.
No worries. You'll get an objective and agenda-less evaluation with all the good, the bad and the ugly therein.

We should all remain a student throughout our lives.
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-04-2012, 8:05 PM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,352
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post

APH is an advanced course and we cover quite a lot more material in that time period. The 2 day Combat Focus Shooting is a pre-requisite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Any chance of attending APH without the prerequisite CFS course?

For APH Course Eligibility it says:

Quote:
Must have completed a minimum of a one-day Fundamentals of Combat Focus Shooting course to be eligible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post

No. It's a safety/technique issue. I don't want to take the time to have to teach ready position and presentation from the holster or have to worry about re-explaining certain course protocols and procedures. It takes away from the experience for those who are following on from CFS... and just eats time from an already full schedule. There would also be a lot of conceptual questions likely to come up that are addressed in CFS. I used to experiment with letting guys with long training resumes in, but it never works. CFS is a distinct methodology.

The APH class registration page says a 1-day CFS course as a prerequisite but you said 2 days (see above links). So, which is it?

When you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post

CFS is a distinct methodology.
AND

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post

There would also be a lot of conceptual questions likely to come up that are addressed in CFS.
It all sounds so elitist, like being a member of L. Ron Hubbard's inner circle and we're not worthy until we're indoctrinated.

Are the CFS methods so exclusive as to need an initiation?

Please help me understand in the overall tactical/defensive firearms training field...
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-16-2012, 5:30 AM
Rob Pincus Rob Pincus is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 26
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

First back to the original topic, I posted a pretty thorough explanation of the CAT Home Study course and the package contents here: .

Next:
Quote:
The APH class registration page says a 1-day CFS course as a prerequisite but you said 2 days (see above links). So, which is it?
Yes, a 1 day course qualifies... though I rarely teach a 1 day CFS course anymore.... But, you can take the course from any certified instructor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

CFS is a distinct methodology.
AND

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

There would also be a lot of conceptual questions likely to come up that are addressed in CFS.
It all sounds so elitist, like being a member of L. Ron Hubbard's inner circle and we're not worthy until we're indoctrinated.

Are the CFS methods so exclusive as to need an initiation?

Please help me understand in the overall tactical/defensive firearms training field...
You are being a little melodramatic. Don't over think it.
If I say to a room full of people "Remember when you did the Wind Sprint Drill?" and one guy has never actually done a Wind Sprint Drill, then it takes away from the class time and I have re-teach something.
If you show up and use an extended ready position instead of a compressed one, you can't do some of the exercises safely. So, students who go through CFS and use/learn a compressed ready position are prepped for the APH course material. If you show up using an extended one and ask (fairly) "Why should I use a compressed ready?" then I have to teach/explain that, which is redundant for people who have been through CFS.... again, it takes time from the course material. No point in showing up for algebra class if you haven't learned arithmetic.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-16-2012, 6:52 PM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,352
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
I posted a pretty thorough explanation of the CAT Home Study course and the package contents here: .
I'll review the piece you posted later. I'm still waiting for my full CAT program to arrive. I received the DVDs but not the rest of the materials. No big deal since I won't have time until the holidays anyways.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post

You are being a little melodramatic. Don't over think it.
If I say to a room full of people "Remember when you did the Wind Sprint Drill?" and one guy has never actually done a Wind Sprint Drill, then it takes away from the class time and I have re-teach something.
If you show up and use an extended ready position instead of a compressed one, you can't do some of the exercises safely. So, students who go through CFS and use/learn a compressed ready position are prepped for the APH course material. If you show up using an extended one and ask (fairly) "Why should I use a compressed ready?" then I have to teach/explain that, which is redundant for people who have been through CFS.... again, it takes time from the course material. No point in showing up for algebra class if you haven't learned arithmetic.
Rob,

This stuff is NOT rocket science and your verbiage dwells on the over-dramatic and treating your audience as simpletons.

We KNOW compressed ready and a lot of your CFS stuff are quite familiar to many through the various CFS, ICE Training, PDN, etc. sources. Don't over-emphasize the uniqueness of your program since you start approaching the point of irrelevance.

Remember also that some of your CFS "graduates" may have forgotten the uniqueness of your methods and may need a quick refresher at the start of the APH class.
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-17-2012, 12:20 PM
ZombieTactics's Avatar
ZombieTactics ZombieTactics is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Roseville area, or wherever they pay my confiscatory rates for things only I know how to do (lol)
Posts: 3,684
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

I am unaware of any special "rate card" for instructors based upon their past acts of derring-do or military qualifications. Did I not get the memo or something? Last time I checked, its was pretty much a free-market thing ... whatever the market will bear. If you can get the rate, get it. Or perhaps an alternate business plan calls for a different student-to-instructor ratio and charges accordingly. That's a business decision, not an indicator of anyone's "awesomeness".

The notion of a "Tier One" background being a singular qualifier for fitness to teach strikes me odd, especially if the subject is self-defense in non-military circumstances. Of course, it's alternately suggested that only champion competition shooters can lay claim to that mantle. Check some of the competition forums and see how they make fun of what they call "Tactical Timmies" ... apparently being a genuine war hero means nothing as long you can shoot paper targets like a pro? Seems like a lot of adolescent posturing to me, and neither position seems to hold much logical weight.

I can't think of a single area of human endeavor - athletic or otherwise - where the very best performers usually make the very best teachers or coaches. Often the best teachers and coaches turn out to be so-so performers or have little in the way of awesome credentials ... aside from the fact that they can bring out the best in their students.

Béla Károlyi was a hammer-thrower and a boxer, and failed miserably at meeting even minimal low-level, standards at gymnastics ... I guess he wasn't "Tier One" enough to coach Nadia Comăneci, Mary Lou Retton, Betty Okino, Teodora Ungureanu, Kim Zmeskal, Kristie Phillips, Dominique Moceanu, and Kerri Strug, huh?

My kid's soccer trainer was a pro player of little renown ... pretty good trainer. Their coach is just an adult enthusiast ... and a much better teacher. I guess all those district cup wins are meaningless, not enough "Tier One" instruction.

Bobby Jackson used to be a neighbor of mine. Awesome skills, helluva decent guy ... could not coach basketball to save his life, from what I've witnessed personally.

Martina Navratilova's tennis coach never won anything of note as a player, from what I am told ... and that's far more common story in most sports than the opposite.

What is so special and unique about firearms training that only awesome death dealers need apply? Why is it different than anything and everything else? There are heroes on every police force (my nephew gave his all, thanks) and great shooters on every range. My training checkbook gets opened for educational value, not the chance to "stand in the presence of awesome".

I have no doubt that the likes of Vickers and others are excellent instructors, as they've gained reputations as instructors. Is there anything so unique about what they teach that their methods are completely unknown to anyone else ... or impossible to be taught except by those with Tier One experience? Believe or not, they have their detractors as well ... full of venom and spite, for reasons every bit as oblique and unfathomable. I can't say I place much faith in content-less, snarky attempts at character assassination ... regardless of source or target.
__________________
|

I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective.

Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE

Last edited by ZombieTactics; 12-17-2012 at 5:24 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-18-2012, 8:26 AM
GM_77 GM_77 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: California
Posts: 594
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
I am unaware of any special "rate card" for instructors...
I took Paul's comment as being you don't go to those trainers because you are worried about price, you go to them because of what they have done and what you can learn from them. If you are climbing Everest you don't ask the REI guy what to wear, you go to the SME's that have actually been there and done it. Now if you are going for a day hike you could ask the REI guy and be fine. I'm sure the Everest dude would yield more though even for the same task...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
...snarky attempts ...
The 20 student thing is an obvious attempt. Paul merely returned accurate and effective fire.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramzar
I don't see Jeff Varner or much of anything from 10X Defense any more.
In some of the CFS videos on youtube the main instructor I think was Omari Broussard.
http://www.vikingcombatives.com/Pers...alifornia.html
--edit-- oh wow I guess it was a 2011 schedule, didn't see that. Nevermind!

Last edited by GM_77; 12-18-2012 at 8:29 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-18-2012, 8:43 AM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,352
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GM_77 View Post
In some of the CFS videos on youtube the main instructor I think was Omari Broussard.
http://www.vikingcombatives.com/Pers...alifornia.html
--edit-- oh wow I guess it was a 2011 schedule, didn't see that. Nevermind!
I was going to say 2011 but you corrected it.

They currently have no CFS Intro or Fundamentals classes scheduled for SoCal in 2013:

http://combatfocusshooting.com/calen...n/3/California

Also, that Jeff Varner guy is no longer an active CFS instructor:

http://combatfocusshooting.com/instructors
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-18-2012, 9:36 AM
ZombieTactics's Avatar
ZombieTactics ZombieTactics is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Roseville area, or wherever they pay my confiscatory rates for things only I know how to do (lol)
Posts: 3,684
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GM_77 View Post
... If you are climbing Everest you don't ask the REI guy what to wear, you go to the SME's that have actually been there and done it. Now if you are going for a day hike you could ask the REI guy and be fine. I'm sure the Everest dude would yield more though even for the same task ...
This is an excellent analogy for the most part, but I think it actually serves to make my point. The "Tier One" trainers suggested are undeniably SMEs in various kinds of team tactics and military techniques. If that's what you want to learn or experience, then you have found your instructors. Who could argue otherwise?

But it's an open question as to which of them are SMEs for the types of self-defense situations most likely to be encountered by civilians, lacking team support or combat load-outs. Certainly that's not a pejorative question or observation, or is it?

It's kind of drag-racing vs. F1 vs. NASCAR, isn't it? It doesn't make sense to say that someone who is a respected NASCAR figure can't teach NASCAR, because they never won a drag race.

Like it or not, Pincus does indeed have the respect of many important and established authorities in the self-defense training field. If you consider the opinions of people like Mike Seeklander, Mas Ayoob, Claude Werner, etc. to be "worthless", then I leave you to your rarefied sensibilities. What it means in any specific case is open to interpretation.

I don't consider myself to be a "defender" of Rob Pincus.I absolutely disagree with some of what he teaches. That's a subject for conversation, research and further study. Rational people don't start feuds over such things. In that respect, you have to admire the professional bearing of someone like LAV concerning these kinds of questions. Nobody is the "all seeing, all knowing" guru on these matters ... not even guys with Tier One military experience.

I take issue with baseless bashing and unnecessary drama, however. Maybe a little more mutual (even if grudging) respect and "staying in your own damned lane" is called for.
__________________
|

I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective.

Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE

Last edited by ZombieTactics; 12-18-2012 at 11:06 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-18-2012, 11:15 AM
va_dinger's Avatar
va_dinger va_dinger is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 606
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
This is an excellent analogy for the most part, but I think it actually serves to make my point. The "Tier One" trainers suggested are undeniably SMEs in various kinds of team tactics and military techniques. If that's what you want to learn or experience, then you have found your instructors. Who could argue otherwise?

But it's an open question as to which of them are SMEs for the types of self-defense situations most likely to be encountered by civilians, lacking team support or combat load-outs. Certainly that's not a pejorative question or observation, or is it?

It's kind of drag-racing vs. F1 vs. NASCAR, isn't it? It doesn't make sense to say that someone who is a respected NASCAR figure can't teach NASCAR, because they never won a drag race.

Like it or not, Pincus does indeed have the respect of many important and established authorities in the self-defense training field. If you consider the opinions of people like Mike Seeklander, Mas Ayoob, Claude Werner, etc. to be "worthless", then I leave you to your rarefied sensibilities. What it means in any specific case is open to interpretation.

I don't consider myself to be a "defender" of Rob Pincus.I absolutely disagree with some of what he teaches. That's a subject for conversation, research and further study. Rational people don't start feuds over such things. In that respect, you have to admire the professional bearing of someone like LAV concerning these kinds of questions. Nobody is the "all seeing, all knowing" guru on these matters ... not even guys with Tier One military experience.

I take issue with baseless bashing and unnecessary drama, however.
First of all your comments are either woefully ignorant or you are purposefully trying trivialize the training, skills, and capabilities of true Special Operations personnel. I’ve noticed many times that guys who would like to discount or trivialize SO experience often reference only “Team Tactics” & “Military Support”. Same reason they use passive-aggressive quotes “ “ around the word “Tier 1”. They are trying to infer that all they did is dress in black and fast rope out of helicopters. Unfortunately for them and our nation’s enemies this is absolutely false. They receive extensive training & operational experience in extremely hostile environment covert/concealed carry, diplomatic security, low vis (Blending in) operations, etc, etc, etc. They regularly operate in extremely small groups or even alone. Help (QRF) might be hours away or even days away.

You don’t have to be the sharpest tool in the shed to realize these skills correlate directly to civilian training classes; covert/concealed carry = civilian concealed carry, diplomatic security = personal defense/defense of family, Low Vis Operations = civilian concealed carry, CQB = Home Defense, etc, etc.

Not to forget their adherence to very high accuracy standards in classes verses “Fighting” = “Good Enough” accuracy. If you are forced to defend your home with your family in the next room or forced to defend yourself in a crowded mall do you want to have been trained by one of the world’s finest handgun shooters or a guy who shoots into a berm to avoid showing you he has boringly average weapon skills?

Hint #1: The topic of this thread isn’t about a standard how to shoot Handgun or Carbine class. It’s about “Counter-Ambush”. A rather specialized topic if you ask me.

Hint #2: I only got involved because I noticed the names being thrown around are friends & business associates of mine. Rest assured they will not be used to sell somebody else’s classes.

Hint #3: My statements were spot on. Trust me.

I am done with this conversation.
__________________
Paul A. Hotaling
Alias Training & Security Services, LLC
Paul@aliastraining.com
757-985-9586
www.aliastraining.com

Last edited by va_dinger; 12-19-2012 at 11:43 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-18-2012, 1:57 PM
ZombieTactics's Avatar
ZombieTactics ZombieTactics is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Roseville area, or wherever they pay my confiscatory rates for things only I know how to do (lol)
Posts: 3,684
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by va_dinger View Post
First of all your comments are either woefully ignorant or you are purposefully trying trivialize the training, skills, and capabilities of true Special Operations personnel.
Jeez Paul, calm down a bit, OK? Whether I am ignorant or not is open to debate, but I can say with a straight face that some of my sources - from which I form my opinions - are a few steps up the chain of command from the people you promote. If they are wrong, perhaps they are ignorant as well, who knows? I tend to think people with stars ion their lapels might know a thing or two. There is no "trivializing" of anything, but rather an attempt to thoughtfully put things in a rational context. How is there any harm or insult in that, unless the expectation is unquestioning, obsequious hero worship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by va_dinger View Post
I’ve noticed many times that guys who would like to discount or trivialize SO experience often reference only “Team Tactics” & “Military Support”. Same reason they use passive-aggressive quotes “ “ around the word “Tier 1”. They are trying to infer that all they did is dress in black and fast rope out of helicopters.
I make no such implication and resent the attempt to completely mistake my comments as such. Without trivializing anything or anyone, I'd note that which should e obvious: they are all men, not deities. I'm certain they put their big-boy pants on one leg at a time like all of the rest of us. If you are suggesting some kind of worship, based upon their past deeds ... sorry, I bow to no man and only one God. His name isn't any of those you've noted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by va_dinger View Post
Unfortunately for them and our nation’s enemies this is absolutely false. They receive extensive training & operational experience in extremely hostile environment covert/concealed carry, diplomatic security, low vis (Blending in) operations, etc, etc, etc ...
It's just bizarre that you feel it necessary to include the first "Unfortunately for them and our nation’s enemies ..." ... this is a conversation, not a recruitment poster. When I need the benefit of "extensive training & operational experience in extremely hostile environment covert/concealed carry, diplomatic security, low vis (Blending in) operations" for my trip to the local mall, I'll concede your point in this regard. Until then, I'll simply note that you are actually making my case: that the training and operational experience of those you promote may have little to do with the requirements of civilians seeking training for self defense. It's still damned interesting, and it's till something I want exposure to, but it's also still a different lane. For my money, I think the experience of someone who has been an undercover narcotics agent for 10+ years might be a closer match. That's one of my instructors ... another was on a high-incident SWAT team for 20 years ... but not good enough I guess? Give it a rest.

Quote:
You don’t have to be the sharpest tool in the shed to realize these skills correlate directly to civilian training classes; covert/concealed carry = civilian concealed carry, diplomatic security = personal defense/defense of family, Low Vis Operations = civilian concealed carry, CQB = Home Defense, etc, etc.
I think you're "shoe-horning" the argument here. That's just an opinion, but you offer no compelling reasoning to believe otherwise. It's probably the case that there is overlap, but not really responsible (IMHO) to suggest that they are the same thing(s), owing to vast differences context and operational scope. However, I'm open to correction. Tell me one or two things which ONLY one of your instructors could teach me, relating directly to a citizen self-defense skill set. Is it one guy or the other one who alone knows the super secret method to surviving an armed robbery attempt? Please be specific. I'm no virgin in this respect. I've had a gun pushed up to my neck twice, and I'm still here. Wanna talk?

Quote:
If you are forced to defend your home with your family in the next room or forced to defend yourself in a crowded mall do you want to have been trained by one of the world’s finest handgun shooters or a guy who shoots into a berm to avoid showing you he has boringly average weapon skills?
See my comments earlier regarding performers vs coaches. You've given no reason to believe it works any differently in this case, aside from an unsupported assertion that it must be so. If someone is a good instructor, and teaches skill which are useful, that's the only requirement as far as am concerned. What else is required? Do my rounds get extra stopping power if I have an Alias patch on my range bag? If not, please stow the self-aggrandizing hyperbole. The experience and reputation of your associates speak for themselves, trying to oversell it doesn't do you or them proud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by va_dinger View Post
I only got involved because I noticed the names being thrown around are friends & business associates of mine. Rest assured they will not be used to sell somebody else’s classes.
Where did anyone's name get used to sell something? The names you reference were only noted by others as offering superior value or better training (than Pincus) by those who believe it to be so. You'd be better off letting them speak for themselves than trying to ride in like some kind of "white knight and defender of the faith". You and I have traded a bit of email and we had one (pleasant enough, I thought) conversation over the phone. You didn't strike me as unhinged at the time, so I have to admit that this side of you is unexpected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by va_dinger View Post
My statements were spot on. Trust me. ...
You are welcome to your opinion, and it will be considered as such. When you back it up with something aside from insults, character assassination and unsupported-assertions-presented-as-fact. they will be considered as such in that case also. Perhaps in your role as a promoter it might do you well to first note the difference.

Paul, as far as I know you are a good guy running a successful business. I have no idea why you've chosen to insert yourself into a side issue having almost nothing to to do with the nature of your business, or the very excellent people you represent. The vitriol and nastiness is unnecessary and unprovoked. It's enough that you do good work, nothing else is necessary.
__________________
|

I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective.

Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE

Last edited by ZombieTactics; 12-18-2012 at 6:10 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-18-2012, 11:20 AM
Clee's Avatar
Clee Clee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 394
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

I believe its a question of credibility. Can an firearm instructor teach without ever seeing combat? Sure of course he can. Could be a good one too. But if that instructor invents or adopts out of the norm techniques or tactics or creates a program that is beyond his knowledge base than anyone has a right to question it. That is fair. I'd rather learn about business from Warren Buffet than the local community college business professor who's never run a business.

As for ZT's coach analogy, I can say Freddy Roach was a lousy boxer and he has trained many a champion, David Ledbetter (to my knowledge) never amounted to much as a golfer but he (at least when I was following golf over a decade ago) was one of the most sought after coaches in golf. All the top players including Tiger (when he was unstoppable) seeked him out. The difference between sport coaches and firearm instructors is night and day. If Tiger or Pac-Man receive poor training or some new invented technique what happens? They lose a large purse, metal, belt, ranking and so on. Ultimately its not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. If one receives poor instructor of some unproven technique in firefight, that is something entirely different. That can cost you or someone around you their life. At minimum it could cost you your financial livelihood or freedom. Therein lies the difference so I don't think the analogy is a good one.

Again its credibility, those listed on the this post (Lamb/ defoor/ LAV etc) have it. They have it because of the teams they were on and the combat experience the have under their belt. Does being on a team make a good instructor? Of course not. But link me one bad AAR to this thread on any of those instructors mentioned. I doubt there are many. Also many of those listed have teaching experience whether it was because the wore a green beret (which is one of their main duties teaching guerilla armies) or were a senior instructor on their team or because Tigerswan or Blackwater hired them. I could be wrong but Hackathorn has no combat experience, but I'd train with him. Why? Because he has credibility and as such is endorsed by the likes of LAV and Howe among others.

As for pricing, Pincus can demand anything he wants. My comment earlier was mentioned because its out of whack with the marketplace. Imagine if someone was looking to buy a high end car in the $100K range. What would people look at? Benz S class, BMW 7 series, Audi, Lexus, and so on. What if while looking at those cars some one mentioned that KIA had a new luxury car that was $120K. You'd do a double take and say WTF?

As for the question whether military combat equates to self defense instruction. that's a legit question. I say yes. Those with military combat experience can teach us civies a thing or two. Obviously, most if not all of us will never take on a guy with a RPG, or have to take cover from a mortar attack. But one thing these guys can tell us is mindset (its the same whether taking on a bunch of drugged out somalies or a whacko breaking into your house). They can tell you what its like to fight through the fear and overcome it. They can tell you about how you'll get tunnel vision and your eyes will poop out of your socket when you get shot at or someone is pointing a gun at you. It goes on.

I'm not sure why this question is even asked. Does one actually believe one is getting the "Delta" or "SEAL" or "SF" way when taking a course from these guys? Of course not. The tactics even in an advance course is really not much. Its basic stuff still- how to approach a corner, which knee to take, how to enter a room, etc. Pretty basic stuff for an assaulter. You don't learn about stacking up or flank an enemy's position etc. At least I haven't seen it. When I took a class with Howe he made mention in one instance this is a military scenario, now you can't do that if you're LEO or civie so this is what you have to do if you're those....

Everyone is different and is free to use their money as they see fit but for me I only have so much time and money I can spend on training. I want vetted, combat tested techniques so in the unlikely event I need to use them I will at least be confident I have a good chance of surviving. I do not need any theoretical untested fluff invented by someone who never even tried it in a competition let alone a fight. I don't have Ram's training budget nor he's incredibly impressive ammo budget to just go see for myself. I'll have to rely on reputation and the various AAR throughout the web to see who gets my money.

Back to credibility, I'll let these videos speak for themselves:


Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-17-2012, 5:32 PM
Rob Pincus Rob Pincus is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 26
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

ZT, you are more gracious than I.... and appreciate you taking the time to entertain Paul's hating.
I know a lot of guys with "cool t-shirt" backgrounds that suck as instructors. You'll note that most don't enter the instructor field, despite the tons of people eager to say they trained with someone with Tier 1 Experience. I also know a lot of guys with no background who are great instructors.

***


Paul, you are very confused about a lot of things. Your hate has made you drift a bit.... your post is inaccurate and baiting and I don't have time for either this evening. If you have anything to ask about the home study course, feel free to ask.

****

Ram,

You've got my answers. CFS class is a pre-requisite. It is so for both safety and efficiency.

-RJP
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-17-2012, 11:23 PM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,352
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post

Ram,

You've got my answers. CFS class is a pre-requisite. It is so for both safety and efficiency.
Got it.

Unfortunately, the Fundamentals of Combat Focus Shooting course is not offered in SoCal in 2013 prior to the APH in Los Angeles in August 2013.

I don't see Jeff Varner or much of anything from 10X Defense any more.
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-17-2012, 11:33 PM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,352
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Rob Pincus should be allowed to market his wares just like anyone else no matter if you agree with him or not. Larry Vickers said it best on M4C:

Quote:

You guys need to remember that Rob Pincus markets to a different audience - years ago Ken and I talked about it and he reminded me and now I am reminding all of you that the mere fact that you visit a tactical firearms and training forum like M4C puts you in a very select category - there are untold thousands of shooters that never visit a firearms forum

Think of it is this way ; how many NASCAR fans do you think there are ( some I'm sure even on M4C ) vs how many fans regularly visit a NASCAR Internet forum to discuss all the details of the sport ?

Pincus is marketing himself to a totally different audience and frankly Im sure he could care less that serious shooters on M4C don't like his training techniques

Obviously his approach is not my cup of tea but it is a free country - he is free to do and say what he wants ; as are all of you

Be safe

LAV
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-19-2012, 10:26 AM
ZombieTactics's Avatar
ZombieTactics ZombieTactics is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Roseville area, or wherever they pay my confiscatory rates for things only I know how to do (lol)
Posts: 3,684
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Still looking forward to your complete review, Ramin. It will form a big part of my yes/no purchase decision.
__________________
|

I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective.

Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-30-2012, 11:21 PM
dl65 dl65 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Paul Hotaling, are you always so obnoxious? What are YOUR qualifications, to be so judgmental about instructors? What military experience or law enforcement experience do you have? From what I can find, you don't have any. You are just a middle man for actual instructors who do have such experience. So please don't attempt to evaluate the abilities of instructors.

I'm sorry, I just couldn't read any more of Paul's rants without dropping the hammer on him.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 6:09 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.