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  #1  
Old 05-18-2012, 12:31 PM
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Default California Expandable Baton Laws

I posted this in another section and a user suggested that I ask in this thread. The Question is on the 2007 Dangerous Weapons Control Law 12020 thru 12040 Unlawful Carrying and Possession Law.

As a retired California C/O (Peace Officer) with a valid CCW for my pistols' I was wondering if can I carry my monadnock baton? If so, does it have to be concealed? I had a incident a while ago while walking and the thought it might have come in handy and prevented a dog bite. I am not looking for felons in the bushes... Sheeest...

Thanks.. Enjoy all the posts!!
"You don’t shoot to kill you shoot to stay alive".

Last edited by seca; 05-24-2012 at 12:37 PM..
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  #2  
Old 05-18-2012, 1:11 PM
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Off the top of my head, there are no exemptions for retired LE for even simple posession.

Here's the renumbered relevant Penal Code
http://leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisga...ction=retrieve

22210. Except as provided in Section 22215 and Chapter 1
(commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person
in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports
into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who
gives, lends, or possesses any leaded cane, or any instrument or
weapon of the kind commonly known as a billy, blackjack, sandbag,
sandclub, sap, or slungshot, is punishable by imprisonment in a
county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison.



22215. Section 22210 does not apply to the manufacture for, sale
to, exposing or keeping for sale to, importation of, or lending of
wooden clubs or batons to special police officers or uniformed
security guards authorized to carry any wooden club or baton pursuant
to Section 22295 by entities that are in the business of selling
wooden clubs or batons to special police officers and uniformed
security guards when engaging in transactions with those persons.
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Old 05-18-2012, 1:23 PM
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I think you may be correct it is a SCOPE thing, after reading this I don't think its possible..

Anybody else?

California Penal Code Section 22295


(a) Nothing in any provision listed in Section 16580
prohibits any police officer, special police officer, peace officer,
or law enforcement officer from carrying any wooden club or baton.
(b) Nothing in any provision listed in Section 16580 prohibits a
uniformed security guard, regularly employed and compensated by a
person engaged in any lawful business, while actually employed and
engaged in protecting and preserving property or life within the
scope of employment,
from carrying any wooden club or baton if the
uniformed security guard has satisfactorily completed a course of
instruction certified by the Department of Consumer Affairs in the
carrying and use of the club or baton. The training institution
certified by the Department of Consumer Affairs to present this
course, whether public or private, is authorized to charge a fee
covering the cost of the training.
(c) The Department of Consumer Affairs, in cooperation with the
Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, shall develop
standards for a course in the carrying and use of a club or baton.
(d) Any uniformed security guard who successfully completes a
course of instruction under this section is entitled to receive a
permit to carry and use a club or baton within the scope of
employment, issued by the Department of Consumer Affairs. The
department may authorize a certified training institution to issue
permits to carry and use a club or baton. A fee in the amount
provided by law shall be charged by the Department of Consumer
Affairs to offset the costs incurred by the department in course
certification, quality control activities associated with the course,
and issuance of the permit.
(e) Any person who has received a permit or certificate that
indicates satisfactory completion of a club or baton training course
approved by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training
prior to January 1, 1983, shall not be required to obtain a club or
baton permit or complete a course certified by the Department of
Consumer Affairs.
(f) Any person employed as a county sheriff's or police security
officer, as defined in Section 831.4, shall not be required to obtain
a club or baton permit or to complete a course certified by the
Department of Consumer Affairs in the carrying and use of a club or
baton, provided that the person completes a course approved by the
Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training in the carrying
and use of the club or baton, within 90 days of employment.
(g) Nothing in any provision listed in Section 16580 prohibits an
animal control officer, as described in Section 830.9, or an illegal
dumping enforcement officer, as described in Section 830.7, from
carrying any wooden club or baton if the animal control officer or
illegal dumping enforcement officer has satisfactorily completed the
course of instruction certified by the Commission on Peace Officer
Standards and Training in the carrying and use of the club or baton.
The training institution certified by the Commission on Peace Officer
Standards and Training to present this course, whether public or
private, is authorized to charge a fee covering the cost of the
training.


"You donít shoot to kill you shoot to stay alive"
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  #4  
Old 05-18-2012, 1:36 PM
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Whatever happened to that nunchucku case out of NY?
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  #5  
Old 05-18-2012, 1:44 PM
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So, in short. NO. you are retired. CCW notwithstanding, you are just a peon like the rest of us. Sure carry your gun all you want, but you'll put an eye out with that baton.
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Old 05-18-2012, 2:00 PM
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There is nothing wrong with being a peon.. I have waited many years for peon status, it's time to let it go. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh there is goes now.. I feel better.. Thanks for your response..

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  #7  
Old 05-18-2012, 3:44 PM
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Seca,

All I will say is "congratulations" to making it to where we are all trying to get to! Not as many officers make it to enjoy retirement as people think.

Good luck.
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Old 05-18-2012, 7:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TASK, LLC View Post
Seca,

All I will say is "congratulations" to making it to where we are all trying to get to! Not as many officers make it to enjoy retirement as people think.

Good luck.

Thanks a bunch the only knuckle head I want to ride anymore is in my garage!
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  #9  
Old 05-18-2012, 7:22 PM
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Retired = no impact weapons except perhaps a kubotan. There is no exemption for retirees.
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  #10  
Old 12-10-2015, 3:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAL.BAR View Post
but you'll put an eye out with that baton.
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  #11  
Old 05-18-2012, 1:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seca View Post
...I had a incident a while ago while walking and the thought it might have come in handy and prevented a dog bite.
ASP Street Defender OC spray. Legal, easy to carry, works great to get aggressive dogs to back off.
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  #12  
Old 05-18-2012, 8:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacticoolme View Post
ASP Street Defender OC spray. Legal, easy to carry, works great to get aggressive dogs to back off.
Several years ago, there was a PD here in the Bay Area arresting people for these claiming that they were a billy club.
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  #13  
Old 05-18-2012, 4:11 PM
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the definitions are applied fast and loose an expandable baton seems to be none of these things

leaded cane is a devise used as a walking stick with added weight

or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a billy,(a small round weightedclub)
blackjack(a leather bag containing metal),
sandbag a leather bag full of sand
sandclub,a club full of sand
sap,a flat leather container of heavy material
or slungshot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slungshot

none of those items describe a expandable metal baton
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Old 05-18-2012, 7:49 PM
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A collapsible baton is a billy.
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Old 05-19-2012, 8:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
A collapsible baton is a billy.
what is the legal definiton of a billy
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Old 05-19-2012, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
what is the legal definiton of a billy
Basically, any club type weapon.
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Old 05-19-2012, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Basically, any club type weapon.
then why does the law not say that?
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:41 PM
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this law i find chuckle worthy. i have a softball bat felony, i have a firearm misdemeanor.


but my dad is a retired LEOhe had several batons, shorties, expandable, long, in a home defense situation if we were to use one?

they gave him a big plaque, it has his ID, badge, whistle, cuffs, and a baton. is that different from the above?
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Old 05-19-2012, 12:15 AM
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You would need the baton permit required for security guards as well as a valid guard card to make that even possible. Plus you would only be able to carry it while on duty as a security guard.
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Old 05-19-2012, 11:43 AM
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Because the law was written many years ago when billy was a more common term.

If you expect logic associated with California law, it will only make your head hurt.
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  #21  
Old 05-19-2012, 6:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Because the law was written many years ago when billy was a more common term.

If you expect logic associated with California law, it will only make your head hurt.
i do not believe that i believe the law was written specifically and has since been interpreted broadly
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Old 05-19-2012, 7:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
i do not believe that i believe the law was written specifically and has since been interpreted broadly
Just because you don't believe in something, doesn't mean it isnt true. From eHow.com

History
British constables in the early to mid-nineteenth century carried wooden truncheons which quickly received the name "billy clubs" (or "bully clubs"). At that time, the truncheon was also a means of identification for a legitimate law enforcement officer, similar to they way a badge is used today. Every baton had the authoritative organization's coat of arms emblazoned on its side, for presentation to the individual being approached or apprehended. The billy club was such a simple and efficient tool, British officers continued to carry the traditional wooden version without major modifications up to the 1990s.

Etymology
Some debate surrounds the origin of the name. Most accounts attribute the "billy" club to a variation of the slang use of "bully" when referring to a London police officer in the Victorian era. Other accounts hold that the early London constables were called "billies" as they served as the law enforcement officers for King William IV, also known as "Old Bill." Therefore, any club they carried might reasonably be referred to as a "billy club." The billy club, while having been renamed and reinvented many times throughout the last few centuries, is still a standard part of the modern-day police

Uses
The billy club is primarily a non-lethal defensive weapon when wielded appropriately. It can be used to strike, ward off blows, aid in other defensive maneuvers and holds, or simply to threaten escalated aggression. It is not meant to deal lethal blows, and most police organizations that employ it specifically train their personnel not to strike the head or other vital areas of the human body, which could lead to death.

Variations
The billy club (truncheon, baton, nightstick, billystick) was historically made of wood and was no longer than the length of a person's arm. Recent variations are minimal and mostly include the material used--plastic or steel, for instance.

The side-handle baton is approximately 2 feet long and has a side-handle that sticks out at a right angle to the main shaft, about six inches from one end.

The expandable baton (or telescoping baton) is collapsible with two to three inner shafts that expand out and lock into place. It is typically made of steel, and can come in either the straight-stick or side-handle variety.

The stun baton is designed much like the straight-stick baton, with an electric shock capability used to stun and incapacitate a person.

Legality
The legality of carrying any type of club weapon designed or modified to do harm to a person varies from country to country and state to state. Most districts forbid non-law enforcement personnel to carry such an item.



Read more: What Is a Billy Club? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_6459277_bi...#ixzz1vNJzOYaf
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  #23  
Old 01-14-2013, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
If you expect logic associated with California law, it will only make your head hurt.
LOL Ron.....thanks for my new signature!
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Old 05-19-2012, 6:23 PM
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This is California. If you have to ask, it's illegal.
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Old 12-30-2014, 6:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
This is California. If you have to ask, it's illegal.
Congratulations


You're now nominated for the CalGuns 2014 Quote of the Year!!!

A CalGuns T-Shirt with that quote would be the bomb.
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  #26  
Old 05-19-2012, 8:08 PM
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I would venture to say that bad knee you got from a hands on call requires a walking stick to balance you on uneven pavement.

Dogs that have met the spray once can be scared away by holding hand out and hissing it is a sure sign they have been hit with spray.

Congratulations on your retirement. Now right a book while it is still fresh in your mind.

Possible title body cavities and fluids.
Or I was brave and ate the food
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Old 05-20-2012, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolito View Post
I would venture to say that bad knee you got from a hands on call requires a walking stick to balance you on uneven pavement.

Dogs that have met the spray once can be scared away by holding hand out and hissing it is a sure sign they have been hit with spray.

Congratulations on your retirement. Now right a book while it is still fresh in your mind.

Possible title body cavities and fluids.
Or I was brave and ate the food
Oh hahhahaha good one! I am laughing out loud on that one.. I was thinking a working title might be.. Keistering a brand new day.. or ring tones from my suitcase? Let me know huh...


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Last edited by seca; 05-20-2012 at 12:37 AM..
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Old 05-19-2012, 11:24 PM
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i'm wondering if there is any blunt object can avoid that definition
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Old 12-28-2012, 4:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
i do not believe that i believe the law was written specifically and has since been interpreted broadly
That's correct, it's called case law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
i'm wondering if there is any blunt object can avoid that definition
Just about any blunt instrument can fit the definition due to the intended use of the object. A baseball bat, axe handle a wooden stick with a rope thong attached will fit the definition if the intended use is for "protection" will fit the definition.

Case law has also evolved with the definition of a dirk or dagger, which used to be a fixed blade knife with a sharpened double edge. Not so anymore. A Dirk or Dagger can now be almost any "fixed" instrument used for stabbing.
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLIGHT762 View Post
........if the intended use is for "protection" will fit the definition.
We cannot have one protecting themselves by injuring a perp with an illegal object. Through circumstances beyond their control, they have no other option than resort to robbery, burglary, etc. If you do as your told and yield to the perp's demand, you most likely will not be assaulted. You must remember that they do not want to hurt you. As recently recommended, women should carry a tongue depressor for defense from rape by using it to induce vomiting. This will effectively gross the rapist out. Felony blunt objects can cause serious injury to disenfranchised thugs. Remember that the streets are their workplace and they deserve a safe workplace environment.

Canes should require a permit. More disenfranchised muggers are injured by cane wielding elderly citizens each year. This has got to stop!

The intent of regulating or prohibiting certain protective weapons is for the protection of the criminal from citizens that react with irrational fear. That is why the size and strength of pepper sprays are regulated.

If all law abiding citizens had an effective means to protect their lives in public, career thugs would starve and may have to consider working for a living.

Most of these ridiculous laws that our LEO's must enforce are meant to control not just the criminal, but all citizens. Many of these laws are not for public safety, but LEO safety. I want them to be safe, but I want to ensure my family is safe as well.

-My wife was sexually assaulted while I was deployed. She applied and was denied a CCW. I will neither confirm nor deny that she carries anyway.
-My sister-in-law was carjacked in SB four years ago and severely beaten resulting in paralysis and eventual death last year due to complications. Result? Two thugs convicted and only given four years. They are now out while my brother is without his spouse until they meet again in the next life. Thank you SB DA! My sister is a Deputy DA and is disgusted with your performance given the facts of the case.

Criminals have nothing to lose in this state as they choose to have nothing that can be forfeited (property). Getting sent to prison is just another welcome home event for many of them. When they want something, they just take it. Defending yourself from a criminal can be financially devastating if you use the wrong ammo, the perp turns as you shoot, etc..

As a retired combat vet with over 20 years, I pray for our LEO's and the tough thankless job they have to do. It's just too bad you can't be everywhere you are needed at all times.
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  #31  
Old 01-01-2013, 7:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
i'm wondering if there is any blunt object can avoid that definition
Yes there is and it is very handy. A cane or walking stick is a superb form of protection and it is legal..even on commercial a/c. Mine is oak finished with tung oil. Techniques for use can be found online...free.
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Old 01-01-2013, 3:40 PM
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Anyone remember the PR-24 with built in flashlight from the early 80's. I remember the company rep coming into briefing the same week the Spyderco rep first came in. The PR-24 flashlight never got off the ground due to its obvious policy violation. Hard to convince admin that you would only use it as a flashlight.
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Old 05-30-2013, 12:51 PM
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Just go pick up the cold steel brookly crusher , a used baseball helmet n some nice "batting gloves" for good measure
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Old 12-10-2015, 10:42 AM
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Too bad the injuries you acquired during your career cause you to sometimes walk with a "cane". One that might prove useful in other ways. There is a Korean self-defense discipline that is specific to canes.
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Old 05-29-2012, 5:41 AM
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Congrats on your retirement. Ive got 18 down and 12 more togo. Hopefully...
Heres a few titles; So do you know why they call this the pokie? Or, Yes, Bubba does exsist. Should i bejewel my prison purse? Hahaha god we could do this all day.
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Old 12-28-2012, 1:09 PM
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Default firefighter and paramedic use of expandable baton

So,

with all the terrible crap that has happened to my fire service brothers on the east and south east coast of our beloved United States of America in recent days, a discussion has formed around the dinner table of my fire station in regards to how to effectively protect ourselves when we respond to fire and EMS incidents.

Now, we normally do not have law enforcement responding with us to 95% of our incident. We do have LE responding on domestics, fights, suicides, and 1144's. Of course, for the exception of the 1144's, we stage in the area until cleared by LE.

I have been in the fire service for 25 years and have had the unfortunate experience of being assulted, having weapons pulled on me, and even had my ambulace shot at. Some of my younger firefighters have had some of the same sh%t occure, working in beautiful downtown Compton and Ingelwood.

With all that said, understandibly, we are not going to carry guns and boot knives, but the idea of having one of the crew members (I am a captain on an engine company) carry an expandable baton either in the small of our back or even in one of our trauma bags (although it may not be readily available is s*it goes down in a house) may be the answere to our quest for piece of mind responding to some of our more dangerous areas with fun loving s*itizins..

So, my questions to my brotheren in blue is; are there any regulations/laws preventing civil servant firefighters from carrying an expandable baton in the name of self defence or crew protection?

Thanks for any information.

Last edited by smokechaser13; 12-28-2012 at 1:13 PM.. Reason: spelling
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  #37  
Old 12-28-2012, 6:47 PM
BigKevLA BigKevLA is offline
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So,

with all the terrible crap that has happened to my fire service brothers on the east and south east coast of our beloved United States of America in recent days, a discussion has formed around the dinner table of my fire station in regards to how to effectively protect ourselves when we respond to fire and EMS incidents.

Now, we normally do not have law enforcement responding with us to 95% of our incident. We do have LE responding on domestics, fights, suicides, and 1144's. Of course, for the exception of the 1144's, we stage in the area until cleared by LE.

I have been in the fire service for 25 years and have had the unfortunate experience of being assulted, having weapons pulled on me, and even had my ambulace shot at. Some of my younger firefighters have had some of the same sh%t occure, working in beautiful downtown Compton and Ingelwood.

With all that said, understandibly, we are not going to carry guns and boot knives, but the idea of having one of the crew members (I am a captain on an engine company) carry an expandable baton either in the small of our back or even in one of our trauma bags (although it may not be readily available is s*it goes down in a house) may be the answere to our quest for piece of mind responding to some of our more dangerous areas with fun loving s*itizins..

So, my questions to my brotheren in blue is; are there any regulations/laws preventing civil servant firefighters from carrying an expandable baton in the name of self defence or crew protection?

Thanks for any information.
I hear the Arson guys are California Peace Officers. You might want to become one.
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Old 05-30-2013, 1:07 PM
Patrick Aherne Patrick Aherne is offline
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Originally Posted by smokechaser13 View Post
So,

with all the terrible crap that has happened to my fire service brothers on the east and south east coast of our beloved United States of America in recent days, a discussion has formed around the dinner table of my fire station in regards to how to effectively protect ourselves when we respond to fire and EMS incidents.

Now, we normally do not have law enforcement responding with us to 95% of our incident. We do have LE responding on domestics, fights, suicides, and 1144's. Of course, for the exception of the 1144's, we stage in the area until cleared by LE.

I have been in the fire service for 25 years and have had the unfortunate experience of being assulted, having weapons pulled on me, and even had my ambulace shot at. Some of my younger firefighters have had some of the same sh%t occure, working in beautiful downtown Compton and Ingelwood.

With all that said, understandibly, we are not going to carry guns and boot knives, but the idea of having one of the crew members (I am a captain on an engine company) carry an expandable baton either in the small of our back or even in one of our trauma bags (although it may not be readily available is s*it goes down in a house) may be the answere to our quest for piece of mind responding to some of our more dangerous areas with fun loving s*itizins..

So, my questions to my brotheren in blue is; are there any regulations/laws preventing civil servant firefighters from carrying an expandable baton in the name of self defence or crew protection?

Thanks for any information.
Don't you carry your irons? Duh. I'd much rather get hit with a baton than a Haligan or a fire axe. A hydrant wrench is a significant piece of metal, too. Stop watching so many DVDs and look at everything on your engine or that you carry that would make a dirtbag think twice...
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Old 05-30-2013, 1:11 PM
IA300 IA300 is offline
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Don't you carry your irons? Duh. I'd much rather get hit with a baton than a Haligan or a fire axe. A hydrant wrench is a significant piece of metal, too. Stop watching so many DVDs and look at everything on your engine or that you carry that would make a dirtbag think twice...
Ditto to this ^^^^^. Just justify the use, and likely, if you are justified in using an expandable baton, one would very likely be justified in using the hydrant wrench or hooligan tool.
I see reports all the time in which a patrol guy uses a flashlight or other object as a blunt force tool, when their batons were left in the unit or fell out during a foot pursuit.
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Old 11-30-2014, 8:22 AM
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Ditto to this ^^^^^. Just justify the use, and likely, if you are justified in using an expandable baton, one would very likely be justified in using the hydrant wrench or hooligan tool.
I see reports all the time in which a patrol guy uses a flashlight or other object as a blunt force tool, when their batons were left in the unit or fell out during a foot pursuit.
I was actually taught defensive tactics using a flashlight in the academy, and carried one as an impact weapon for years (until my agency required us to carry a dedicated impact weapon). After I retired I took all my batons and straight sticks to AZ. I have no use for them anymore in CA since I can't legally carry one.
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