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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

View Poll Results: How much would you pay for Law Enforcement Credentials
$0 I don't want them at any price 373 15.34%
$100 305 12.55%
$500 716 29.45%
$1000 497 20.44%
$1500 102 4.20%
$2000 202 8.31%
$5000 125 5.14%
$10000 49 2.02%
$Whatever it takes I'll take out a second mortgage 62 2.55%
Voters: 2431. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 11-08-2009, 8:41 AM
AJAX22 AJAX22 is offline
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Default (operation started) How much would you pay for Valid LEO credentials (issued to you)?

For a summary of this thread please go to www.ccwforall.com
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Quote:
INTRODUCED BY ___________________________________
AN ACT CREATING A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY MEMBER KNOWN AS SPECIAL CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICER; AMENDING SECTIONS 7-32-201, 7-32-212 AND 7-32-234 MCA; ADDING NEW SECTIONS 7-32-240, 7-32-241, 7-32-242, 7-32-243, 7-32-244, 7-32-245, 7-32-246, and 46-6-209 TO MCA; AND PROVIDING AN IMMEDIATE EFFECTIVE DATE.
WHEREAS, the Legislature declares that it is in the best interest of the People of the State of Montana to create a new law enforcement agency member known as auxiliary reserve officer.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF MONTANA:
Section 1. Section 7-32-201, MCA, is amended to read:
“7-32-201. Definitions.
As used in this part, the following definitions apply:
(1) “Auxiliary officer” means an unsworn, part-time, volunteer member of a law enforcement agency who may perform but is not limited to the performance of such functions as civil defense, search and rescue, office duties, crowd and traffic control, and crime prevention activities.
(2) “Council” means the Montana public safety officer standards and training council established in 2-15-2029.
(3) “General law enforcement duties” means patrol operations performed for detection, prevention, and suppression of crime and the enforcement of criminal and traffic codes of this state and its local governments.
(4) “Law enforcement agency” means a law enforcement service provided directly by a local government.
(5) “Law enforcement officer” means a sworn, full-time, employed member of a law enforcement agency who is a peace officer, as defined in 46-1-202, and has arrest authority, as described in 46-6-210.
(6) “Reserve officer” means a sworn, part-time, volunteer member of a law enforcement agency who is a peace officer, as defined in 46-1-202, and has arrest authority, as described in 46-6-210, only when authorized to perform these functions as a representative of the law enforcement agency.
(7) “Special services officer” means an unsworn, part-time, volunteer member of a law enforcement agency who may perform functions, other than general law enforcement duties, that require specialized skills, training, and qualifications, who may be required to train with a firearm, and who may carry a firearm while on assigned duty as provided in 7-32-239.
(8) “Auxiliary reserve officer” means a sworn, part-time member of a law enforcement agency who is not a peace officer as defined in 46-1-202, and who engages in the prevention, detection and investigation of violations of law, who may carry a firearm as provided in 7-32-241 and has arrest authority, as described in 46-6-209.”
Section 2. Section 7-32-212, MCA, is amended to read:
“7-32-212. Prohibition on reduction of full-time officers.
A local government may not reduce the authorized number of full-time law enforcement officers through the appointment or utilization of reserve officers or auxiliary reserve officers.”
Section 3. Section 7-32-234, MCA, is amended to read:
“7-32-234. Exceptions.
Provisions of 7-32-211, 7-32-213, and 7-32-214 do not apply to auxiliary officers, to special services officers, to auxiliary reserve officers, to sworn volunteer peace officers who are not assigned to general law enforcement duties, or to members of a posse organized to quell public disturbance or domestic violence in accordance with 7-32-2121(6).”
Section 4. Following new Sections 7-32-240, 7-32-241, 7-32-242, 7-32-243, 7-32-244, 7-32-245, 7-32-246, and 46-6-209, are hereby added to MCA:
7-32-240. LEOSA Qualification.
It is the express intent of the Legislature that each of the following offices qualify as a “qualified law enforcement officer” a such term is used in the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004: (1) law enforcement officer, (2) special services officer, and (3) auxiliary reserve officer.
7-32-241. Auxiliary reserve officers -- authorization -- role.
(1) Auxiliary reserve officers:
(a) are subordinate to full-time law enforcement officers;
(b) may carry a weapon while on assigned duty and while off duty upon successful completion of training described in 7-32-245;
(c) have arrest authority described in 46-6-209.
(2) A local government may authorize auxiliary reserve officers only on the orders and at the direction of the chief law enforcement administrator of the local government.
7-32-242. Qualifications for appointment as auxiliary reserve officer.
To be appointed an auxiliary reserve officer, a person:
(1) must be a citizen of the United States or legal resident of the United States in good standing;
(2) must be at least 18 years of age;
(3) must be fingerprinted, and a search must be made of local, state, and national fingerprint files to disclose any criminal record;
(4) may not have been convicted of a crime for which the person could have been imprisoned in a federal penitentiary or state prison;
(5) must be of good moral character as determined by a thorough background investigation through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System;
(6) must have completed the training described in 7-32-244; and
(7) must have paid the application fee, completed the appointment application, and signed the employment agreement, in each case as established by the chief law enforcement administrator.
7-32-243. Auxiliary reserve officer employment.
(1) A local government authorized by its chief law enforcement administrator to appoint auxiliary reserve officers shall appoint any person that satisfies the qualifications for appointment as a special conditional officer set forth in 7-329-242.
(2) The application fee described in 7-329-242(1)(h) shall not exceed $___________ for applicants that are residents of the State of Montana, $_____________ for applicants that are not residents of the State of Montana, or $_________ for any applicant with prior military service.
(3) At the time of appointment, an auxiliary reserve officer shall take a formal oath of office.
(4) The appointment of auxiliary reserve officer shall be a salaried position with an annual salary equal to $1.00 per year.
(5) Any action taken by any auxiliary reserve officer that is not taken under the direct supervision, or at the express direction, of a law enforcement officer, shall be deemed action taken by the auxiliary reserve officer as a private citizen.
(6) An auxiliary reserve officer may only be terminated by the appointing agency in writing and for cause. Any of the following shall be deemed cause sufficient to termination an auxiliary reserve officer appointment: (a) the conviction of the auxiliary reserve officer of a crime for which a person may be imprisoned in a federal penitentiary or state prison, and (b) the incurrence by the auxiliary reserve officer of any civil or criminal liability involving a firearm, or other deadly weapon, assault, or battery.
(7) In the event of any natural disaster or state of emergency, the governor of the State of Montana or an issuing agency may declare a recall of all auxiliary reserve officers appointed by such agency. In the event of such declaration, any auxiliary reserve officers notified thereof in writing, shall make a good faith effort to report to such issuing agency in person as soon as practical; provided however, such auxiliary reserve officer shall have to provide for his/her own food, boarding and other provisions. It shall be the responsibility of all auxiliary reserve officers to maintain and verify that the issuing agency has current contact information on file should an emergency recall be declared.
7-32-244. Auxiliary reserve officer training. Prior to appointment, an auxiliary reserve officer shall have successfully completed ___ hours of training, which may be completed online and which shall include, without limitation, the following subject matters:
7-32-245. Auxiliary reserve officer firearm training. Prior to carrying a weapon while on duty or off duty, an auxiliary reserve officer shall have successfully completed the NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course, or, if no such course is then available, an equivalent course then certified by the National Rifle Association (or other association approved by the appointing agency), or any other course approved by the appointing agency.
7-32-246. Auxiliary reserve officers -- exemptions.
The authorization and appointment of auxiliary reserve officers shall be exempt from:
(1) any and all residency requirements;
(2) any collective bargaining agreements and/or participation requirements;
(3) any insurance participation or coverage requirements;
(4) any and all minimum wage requirements;
(5) any and all pension and retirement plan participation requirements;
(6) any and all minimum time on duty;
(7) all training, education, and certification standards outlined in 7-32-303; and
(8) any and all qualifying standards for employment promulgated by the Montana public safety officer standards and training council established in 2-15-2029.
46-6-209. Arrest by auxiliary reserve officer.
An auxiliary reserve officer may arrest a person when:
(1) the officer has an arrest warrant as defined in 46-1-202 commanding that the person be arrested;
(2) the arrest is made within the jurisdiction of the local government that authorized and appointed the officer; and
(3) the arrest is made under the direct supervision of a full-time law enforcement officer.
Section 4. Effective date. This act is effective on passage and approval.
- END -
________________________________________
Latest Version of HB _____ (HB__________)
Processed for the Web on _____________
New language in a bill appears underlined, deleted material appears stricken.
Sponsor names are handwritten on introduced bills, hence do not appear on the bill until it is reprinted.
Working on an interesting idea, trying to get some market data.

If you could be legally considered a Law enforcement officer under HR218, and able to carry concealed in any state in the union... how much would it be worth to you?

credentials would be valid over 5 year renewal intervals, after 3 renewal periods you would be eligable for 'retirement' credentials.... and background check etc... and all sundry processing fees would be included..

please vote for the maximum which you would actually pay.

And be honest.

Thank you


edit:

Added graph of market data. revenue is in $1000's

Added text of primary proposal
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Last edited by AJAX22; 10-31-2011 at 10:36 AM..
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  #2  
Old 11-08-2009, 9:00 AM
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Those are to be earned, not bought.
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You're right. There's no possible way that CGN members marching alongside the Pink Pistols in the SF Pride Parade can do anything to dispel the stereotype that gun owners are conservative bigots clinging to their guns and bibles. Not a single person in the crowd is rational or reachable because the parade's for gay folks and it's in SF.
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Old 11-08-2009, 9:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Peter Venkman View Post
Those are to be earned, not bought.
Um... no... they are NOT earned, they are simply issued, by cities or other governing entities... and in some places it is done with little or no qualification or requirements... CA has some requirements that must be met, but there are other places which do NOT have the same criteria, but still issue credentials which are valid for the purpose of concealed cary under the Law enforcement protection act.

Look, you may disagree with it morally/ethically etc. But it gets you a concealed Cary permit that is valid in any state in the union. INCLUDING CA and NYC.
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Old 11-08-2009, 6:58 PM
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Um... no... they are NOT earned, they are simply issued, by cities or other governing entities... and in some places it is done with little or no qualification or requirements... CA has some requirements that must be met, but there are other places which do NOT have the same criteria, but still issue credentials which are valid for the purpose of concealed cary under the Law enforcement protection act.

Look, you may disagree with it morally/ethically etc. But it gets you a concealed Cary permit that is valid in any state in the union. INCLUDING CA and NYC.
Let me know when LEAs start hiring cops that have not gone through the academy.
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Originally Posted by berto View Post
You're right. There's no possible way that CGN members marching alongside the Pink Pistols in the SF Pride Parade can do anything to dispel the stereotype that gun owners are conservative bigots clinging to their guns and bibles. Not a single person in the crowd is rational or reachable because the parade's for gay folks and it's in SF.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:56 AM
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Let me know when LEAs start hiring cops that have not gone through the academy.
http://jobs.spb.ca.gov/wvpos/more_info.cfm?recno=118981

Getting a POST 832 certificate takes about 1 week.

Last edited by bubbagump; 11-09-2009 at 10:59 AM..
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  #6  
Old 11-10-2009, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
Um... no... they are NOT earned, they are simply issued, by cities or other governing entities... and in some places it is done with little or no qualification or requirements... CA has some requirements that must be met, but there are other places which do NOT have the same criteria, but still issue credentials which are valid for the purpose of concealed cary under the Law enforcement protection act.

Look, you may disagree with it morally/ethically etc. But it gets you a concealed Cary permit that is valid in any state in the union. INCLUDING CA and NYC.
You are correct, the Coast Guard recently sent us a letter stating they consider ALL employees of California State Lands Commission to be LEO's.
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Old 11-10-2009, 9:12 PM
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$500
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Old 11-30-2009, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
Um... no... they are NOT earned, they are simply issued, by cities or other governing entities... and in some places it is done with little or no qualification or requirements... CA has some requirements that must be met, but there are other places which do NOT have the same criteria, but still issue credentials which are valid for the purpose of concealed cary under the Law enforcement protection act.

Look, you may disagree with it morally/ethically etc. But it gets you a concealed Cary permit that is valid in any state in the union. INCLUDING CA and NYC.
So what are the states with the most lenient requirements and what are those requirements?
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Old 11-30-2009, 9:41 PM
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So what are the states with the most lenient requirements and what are those requirements?
Go back and start reading at Post #241.
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Old 11-08-2009, 9:32 AM
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Those are to be earned, not bought.
Are you sure you even live in California!?
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:26 AM
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Are you sure you even live in California!?
Maybe he doesn't live in Orange County.
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:36 AM
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Maybe he doesn't live in Orange County.
Ooooh good one!
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Old 11-08-2009, 2:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Peter Venkman View Post
Those are to be earned, not bought.
I think you're confusing legal LEO credentials with the job of actually being a peace officer. Ethically I agree being a Peace Officer requires skill and training. Credentials, well....legally...that's another story.

The oddities of California law on this issue received a little sunlight in the media after the infamous Ferrari Enzo crash in Los Angeles involving Stefan Eriksson, who as it turns out was a "Deputy Police Commissioner" of the San Gabriel Valley Transit Authority. Here is a link to an LA Times article (cached because the LA Times archives are down).

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Old 11-09-2009, 9:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Peter Venkman View Post
Those are to be earned, not bought.

Earned?

Most departments and agencies hire family or friends of current Officers. Head back east, and you'll find it's a lot more of a Family business, then a depiction of the actual community being served.
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Old 11-09-2009, 9:41 AM
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Earned?

Most departments and agencies hire family or friends of current Officers. Head back east, and you'll find it's a lot more of a Family business, then a depiction of the actual community being served.
So because corruption and nepotism reign in some areas of the country, it's OK to follow a similar model?

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Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
And now we have to figure out how we serfs can get a landed gentry's right to carry a sword....
The way we need to figure this out is not through some loophole which would be quickly closed by the same legislators who accidentally opened it. That's a lame, dubious short-term solution that would anyway only benefit an elite which could buy their way in (plus, running a municipality is not exactly a picnic).

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Old 11-09-2009, 10:08 AM
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So because corruption and nepotism reign in some areas of the country, it's OK to follow a similar model?

The way we need to figure this out is not through some loophole which would be quickly closed by the same legislators who accidentally opened it. That's a lame, dubious short-term solution that would anyway only benefit an elite which could buy their way in (plus, running a municipality is not exactly a picnic).
Yep... those credentials issued by nepotism and corruption are just as valid under federal law as those that are 'earned' through service to the state(king)...

I think I've heard the term 'loophole' bandied about before.... seems to be the mantra of the people who recognize that something is totally legal even if it does not sit with their personal ideology/agenda.

Yes the legislature could i(n theory) 'crack down' on this... it would have to occur at a federal level... essentially imposing harsher levels of qualification for consideration under the LEOSA... which would be VERY hard to get the legislature to pass.. since many many states would not meet the new 'qualifications'.... so I don't see that as a overly likely outcome.

Let me make this perfectly plain. I am NOT suggesting that we all run out and buy a municipality... that adds a level of complexity that is unnecessary.

There are plenty of townships/towns out there who can issue the credentials we want and $$$ talks... particularly to areas with a mean income of around 14k per year.... a cash injection of 10 million to a community of 2500 is a substantial enough bit of cash that they can't easily dismiss the probability.

Ok... some people may think its 'dubious' or a 'scam' but the fact of the matter is the law is the law... they wrote it.. they make us follow it... and what is proposed here is LEGAL... and even in a worst case scenario where the opposition rallies the troops and shuts us down we'd get a few years of legal CCW.... which is a few years of keeping our family safe... AND it could easily pave the way for national reciprocity of CCW permits....

Legal is legal.... CCW permits are just for that 1 time in 100 where you get hassled.... and even with one of those you don't always beat the ride... but with valid LEO credentials you WILL beat the rap.... the same was true for all our OLL endevors.

Look, I'm not saying this sort of thing is an ideal situation... but we ALREADY have an elite (LEO's) who get privilages that the rest of us are denied.

This is simply a broad lowering of the barriers to entry into that protected class (which shouldn't exist in the first place)

I dislike that this is nececary to exercise our rights... however, it IS legal... and it DOES allow us to exercise those rights....

Heck, I'd love to run detachable mags in my full featured AR.... but the MMG I have on it is simply the price I have to pay to legally do what I need to have the means to protect my family..... and now that I live and go to school in NYC, I have ZERO recourse or ability to have those means... they all live back in 'free' California...

I was originally just looking into this for personal and selfish reasons... but I think it could be a large and significant step forward in the advancement of the 2A in America.
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Old 11-10-2009, 10:31 PM
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Yep... those credentials issued by nepotism and corruption are just as valid under federal law as those that are 'earned' through service to the state(king)...

I think I've heard the term 'loophole' bandied about before.... seems to be the mantra of the people who recognize that something is totally legal even if it does not sit with their personal ideology/agenda.

Yes the legislature could i(n theory) 'crack down' on this... it would have to occur at a federal level... essentially imposing harsher levels of qualification for consideration under the LEOSA... which would be VERY hard to get the legislature to pass.. since many many states would not meet the new 'qualifications'.... so I don't see that as a overly likely outcome.

Let me make this perfectly plain. I am NOT suggesting that we all run out and buy a municipality... that adds a level of complexity that is unnecessary.

There are plenty of townships/towns out there who can issue the credentials we want and $$$ talks... particularly to areas with a mean income of around 14k per year.... a cash injection of 10 million to a community of 2500 is a substantial enough bit of cash that they can't easily dismiss the probability.

Ok... some people may think its 'dubious' or a 'scam' but the fact of the matter is the law is the law... they wrote it.. they make us follow it... and what is proposed here is LEGAL... and even in a worst case scenario where the opposition rallies the troops and shuts us down we'd get a few years of legal CCW.... which is a few years of keeping our family safe... AND it could easily pave the way for national reciprocity of CCW permits....

Legal is legal.... CCW permits are just for that 1 time in 100 where you get hassled.... and even with one of those you don't always beat the ride... but with valid LEO credentials you WILL beat the rap.... the same was true for all our OLL endevors.

Look, I'm not saying this sort of thing is an ideal situation... but we ALREADY have an elite (LEO's) who get privilages that the rest of us are denied.

This is simply a broad lowering of the barriers to entry into that protected class (which shouldn't exist in the first place)

I dislike that this is nececary to exercise our rights... however, it IS legal... and it DOES allow us to exercise those rights....

Heck, I'd love to run detachable mags in my full featured AR.... but the MMG I have on it is simply the price I have to pay to legally do what I need to have the means to protect my family..... and now that I live and go to school in NYC, I have ZERO recourse or ability to have those means... they all live back in 'free' California...

I was originally just looking into this for personal and selfish reasons... but I think it could be a large and significant step forward in the advancement of the 2A in America.
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Power of a “County Sheriff”

Bighorn County Sheriff Dave Mattis spoke at a press conference following a recent U.S. District Court decision (Case No. 2:96-cv-099-J (2006)) and announced that all federal officials are forbidden to enter his county without his prior approval …… “If a sheriff doesn’t want the Feds in his county he has the constitutional right and power to keep them out, or ask them to leave, or retain them in custody.”

The court decision was the result of a suit against both the BATF and the IRS by Mattis and other members of the Wyoming Sheriff’s Association. The suit in the Wyoming federal court district sought restoration of the protections enshrined in the United States Constitution and the Wyoming Constitution.

Guess what? The District Court ruled in favor of the sheriffs. In fact, they stated, Wyoming is a sovereign state and the duly elected sheriff of a county is the highest law enforcement official within a county and has law enforcement powers exceeding that of any other state or federal official.”

Re-read this quote.

The court confirms and asserts that “the duly elected sheriff of a county is the highest law enforcement official within a county and has law enforcement powers EXCEEDING that of any other state or federal official.”

http://harmonyhealth.wordpress.com/2...w-of-the-land/
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:55 AM
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Those are to be earned, not bought.
...umm, no...just ask FORMER OC Sherrif Mike Carona...
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:40 PM
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Those are to be earned, not bought.
The badge is NOT earned. It's not an award, or medal of valor. You pay for it by attending a class and gaining employment...
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Old 11-16-2009, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Peter Venkman View Post
Those are to be earned, not bought.
+1,000

you want the badge, get the job.
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Old 11-16-2009, 3:30 PM
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+1,000

you want the badge, get the job.
I don't want the badge or the job, I simply want to be able to CCW. Becoming a reserve officer of sorts is the only way I'll be able to carry in the near future. If the idea offends some, well, I'm sorry but my my desire to carry and take responsibility for my own safety matters more to me than your feelings.

Last edited by berto; 11-16-2009 at 7:09 PM..
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Old 11-16-2009, 3:30 PM
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+1,000

you want the badge, get the job.
I'm not sure if you read the rest of thread, but that's what's being proposed.
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Old 01-05-2010, 9:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Peter Venkman View Post
Those are to be earned, not bought.
cops dont earn there badge, they buy it by going thru cop school. some cops end up earning respect of the public by their actions, others are a disgrace to the badge. has nothing to do with the price.

if cal gunners are able to obtain a badge, depending on how they act will determine if they "earned " it or not.

if someone with a badge can carry a gun and is able to be responsible and stop a crime with the gun, then I say they have earned it.

there are plenty of cops (a minority, but still a large number) that never ever should be allowed to carry a gun nor a badge, but they buy the education, and get the badge and the right to carry anyway.
why should the rest of use not be allowed to carry??? what makes cops so special anyway? far as i am concerend the law that is good for me is good for them.

After work hours, the cops should be forced to return there guns for safe kepping at the station, and they should; never be allowed to carry while off duty.

as long as I cant carry, no off duty cop should. no one can claim they are in any more danger than say a gas station attendant walking home at night from the late shift.

what makes a cops life more important than mine? He can defend himself and family at anytime he pleases, but the rest of us must wait for the police to arrive. disgusting government favoritism.

maybe if police chiefs and had the same civil rights violation on them as is put on the rest of us (the denial of the right to carry) we would have fewer anti-gun police chiefs, then maybe we would get more conceled carry permits, or hell, just do away with this conceled carry permit (will NOT be infringed) and allow all to carry, if you screw up and use the gun illegally then let the police take you down for that, not for the fact that you carry.

so long as off duty cops have this right that the rest of us dont have, we willl never get resonable conceled carry permits issued. so long as the cops have all the guns, they are happy with the status quo.

Off duty cops allowed to carry is a disgusting perversion of our Rights
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Old 01-05-2010, 1:47 PM
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as long as I cant carry, no off duty cop should. no one can claim they are in any more danger than say a gas station attendant walking home at night from the late shift.
Not that I don't agree we should all have carry permits, but are you serious?

The gas station attendant isn't annoying criminals and building grudges by arresting them and costing them X years of their life.

I know from working the Del Mar and Costa Mesa gun shows that there are a LOT of people who recognize me from that; I get folks saying howdy once every other month or so. I can only imagine how it would be for an LEO who's recognized by people who frequently have a grudge.

You had some solid points, but this analogy just falls flat on its face here.
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Old 01-12-2010, 9:11 PM
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But every criminal knows that if they harm a hair on the head of a LEO every cop in the country makes it his personal mission to bring them to justice. That is not the case with the gas station attendant. It all kind of evens out, don't you think? Or do you just have a need to be 'special'?

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Originally Posted by grammaton76 View Post
Not that I don't agree we should all have carry permits, but are you serious?

The gas station attendant isn't annoying criminals and building grudges by arresting them and costing them X years of their life.

I know from working the Del Mar and Costa Mesa gun shows that there are a LOT of people who recognize me from that; I get folks saying howdy once every other month or so. I can only imagine how it would be for an LEO who's recognized by people who frequently have a grudge.

You had some solid points, but this analogy just falls flat on its face here.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:17 PM
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But every criminal knows that if they harm a hair on the head of a LEO every cop in the country makes it his personal mission to bring them to justice. That is not the case with the gas station attendant. It all kind of evens out, don't you think? Or do you just have a need to be 'special'?
It would even out if the criminals really considered the consequences of his actions. However, to a substantial subset it's about thug fame, and they don't care if they get the death penalty. The existence (and percentage) of those monsters is exactly why the guy running the gas station is not in as great a risk. The gas station guy, too, is no longer at risk once he has a better job. The cop however, is a marked man as long as he can be recognized.

Now, the animal responsible for the Granada Liquor Store shootings (my wife served on the jury for the trial of the bag man in that case - for what it's worth, she found him guilty) was exactly such a man.

Although I'm not sure why you think I'd have a need to be special - I don't have a CCW, I'm not an LEO, and the only special gun-related privileges I ever enjoy is occasional review samples of tactical gear.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by davescz View Post
cops dont earn there badge, they buy it by going thru cop school. some cops end up earning respect of the public by their actions, others are a disgrace to the badge. has nothing to do with the price.

if cal gunners are able to obtain a badge, depending on how they act will determine if they "earned " it or not.

if someone with a badge can carry a gun and is able to be responsible and stop a crime with the gun, then I say they have earned it.

there are plenty of cops (a minority, but still a large number) that never ever should be allowed to carry a gun nor a badge, but they buy the education, and get the badge and the right to carry anyway.
why should the rest of use not be allowed to carry??? what makes cops so special anyway? far as i am concerend the law that is good for me is good for them.

After work hours, the cops should be forced to return there guns for safe kepping at the station, and they should; never be allowed to carry while off duty.

as long as I cant carry, no off duty cop should. no one can claim they are in any more danger than say a gas station attendant walking home at night from the late shift.


what makes a cops life more important than mine? He can defend himself and family at anytime he pleases, but the rest of us must wait for the police to arrive. disgusting government favoritism.

maybe if police chiefs and had the same civil rights violation on them as is put on the rest of us (the denial of the right to carry) we would have fewer anti-gun police chiefs, then maybe we would get more conceled carry permits, or hell, just do away with this conceled carry permit (will NOT be infringed) and allow all to carry, if you screw up and use the gun illegally then let the police take you down for that, not for the fact that you carry.

so long as off duty cops have this right that the rest of us dont have, we willl never get resonable conceled carry permits issued. so long as the cops have all the guns, they are happy with the status quo.

Off duty cops allowed to carry is a disgusting perversion of our Rights
I just don't get the cop hate. I don't hate you......and in fact think CA should be a shall-issue state, but you want to take away off-duty carry....WTF? Being bitter and coming off hateful is not the way to advance CCW rights in CA. And what is this about cops not earning their badges? The Police Academy in CA is 5 1/2 months long, longer than any military basic training. FTO is another 12-16 weeks on the street. I've been a cop for 15 years, I've earned my badge. If that is some sort of problem for you then I think the issue lies with you.

Last edited by RangemasterP226; 01-12-2010 at 10:44 PM..
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  #28  
Old 01-12-2010, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by RangemasterP226 View Post
I just don't get the cop hate <snip>
This has been a silly thread from the get-go and I'm surprised it's lasted this long.

What seems like hate is actually envy; people envious that cops get to carry pretty much anywhere, anytime, as well as the authority cops have over non-cops.

People paying for LEO credentials...WTF?

.
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  #29  
Old 01-18-2010, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
This has been a silly thread from the get-go and I'm surprised it's lasted this long.

What seems like hate is actually envy; people envious that cops get to carry pretty much anywhere, anytime, as well as the authority cops have over non-cops.

People paying for LEO credentials...WTF?

.
I think that the larger question here is one of being able to exercise (or not exercise) one's constitutional rights. Why should one group of citizens be allowed to exercise their 2nd amendment rights through 50 state concealed carry while the rest of the citizens are denied this right? Arbitrarily granting rights to a subset of society is most obviously denying those constitutional rights to others. How exactly does a LEO justify this in the context of the sworn oath he/she has taken to be a LEO? This is taken from the "Law Enforcement Oath of Honor": "...I will always uphold the Constitution, my community, and the agency I serve." By this "Oath of Honor", I would think that LE should be falling over themselves to ensure that I have the the ability to exercise the exact same constitutional rights that they themselves enjoy. Failing that, why oppose inclusion of LE status merely to exercise the constitutional right of CCW?

Ajax: Are we awaiting McDonald before moving forward on this? What help to you need if you are indeed moving forward?
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  #30  
Old 01-18-2010, 1:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
This has been a silly thread from the get-go and I'm surprised it's lasted this long.

What seems like hate is actually envy; people envious that cops get to carry pretty much anywhere, anytime, as well as the authority cops have over non-cops.

People paying for LEO credentials...WTF?

.
it's not about the credentials. It's not about wanting to be a cop. The credentials are just the prerequisite to the carry license. It has nothing to do with becoming a sworn LEO. It has to to with achieving FULL CCW through the limits of the laws.
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  #31  
Old 02-03-2010, 1:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davescz View Post
cops dont earn there badge, they buy it by going thru cop school. some cops end up earning respect of the public by their actions, others are a disgrace to the badge. has nothing to do with the price.

if cal gunners are able to obtain a badge, depending on how they act will determine if they "earned " it or not.

if someone with a badge can carry a gun and is able to be responsible and stop a crime with the gun, then I say they have earned it.

there are plenty of cops (a minority, but still a large number) that never ever should be allowed to carry a gun nor a badge, but they buy the education, and get the badge and the right to carry anyway.
why should the rest of use not be allowed to carry??? what makes cops so special anyway? far as i am concerend the law that is good for me is good for them.

After work hours, the cops should be forced to return there guns for safe kepping at the station, and they should; never be allowed to carry while off duty.

as long as I cant carry, no off duty cop should. no one can claim they are in any more danger than say a gas station attendant walking home at night from the late shift.

what makes a cops life more important than mine? He can defend himself and family at anytime he pleases, but the rest of us must wait for the police to arrive. disgusting government favoritism.

maybe if police chiefs and had the same civil rights violation on them as is put on the rest of us (the denial of the right to carry) we would have fewer anti-gun police chiefs, then maybe we would get more conceled carry permits, or hell, just do away with this conceled carry permit (will NOT be infringed) and allow all to carry, if you screw up and use the gun illegally then let the police take you down for that, not for the fact that you carry.

so long as off duty cops have this right that the rest of us dont have, we willl never get resonable conceled carry permits issued. so long as the cops have all the guns, they are happy with the status quo.

Off duty cops allowed to carry is a disgusting perversion of our Rights
this is the best post in all the pages i read on this thing.

a cops life is no more important than mine, so why should they be allowed to carry off duty just because of their job? Im not saying this because i dont like cops, i dont like the fact that they are given advantages for no reason.

and i know you can argue that people may recogonize you while you are off duty and you have no way to protect yourself. Well then now you know how it feels for every other normal person in the country on a daily basis. Why should a police officer get to protect themselves off duty because they arrested a gang member but the person that testifies against that person does not?

So yes i think they shouldnt be allowed to carry off duty just because they are LEO. And the day that privelage gets taken away will be the day they and everyone else in america gets their right to protect themselves back. Because we all know law makers will never let police officers not be able to protect themselves.
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Old 02-03-2010, 1:32 PM
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Why should a police officer get to protect themselves off duty because they arrested a gang member but the person that testifies against that person does not?

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Old 02-02-2010, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Peter Venkman View Post
Those are to be earned, not bought.
I stopped at this because it's absolutely, 100% true.

didn't need to read 81 pages of BS to know this.

/end
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:09 AM
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I stopped at this because it's absolutely, 100% true.

didn't need to read 81 pages of BS to know this.

/end
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:00 AM
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I stopped at this because it's absolutely, 100% true.

didn't need to read 81 pages of BS to know this.

/end
"I know that I know nothing" really applies here.

Ignorance is not bliss; there's a reason this thread is 21 pages long.
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Flopper View Post
"I know that I know nothing" really applies here.

Ignorance is not bliss; there's a reason this thread is 21 pages long.

On a separate note, we are looking to put together a talking points prompt sheet for calling agencies and municipalities.

As well as putting together a website to point people to for more info.

Anyone who wishes to help with the content generated (FAQ, Mission Statement, image generation... etc.) we can use all the help we can get.

I'd also like to prepare a list of states and state restrictions which may apply (as well as states which have amenable provisions in the existing law for this type of endeavor)

My time is beyond impacted at the moment, so if anyone wants to work on drafts and post them up here for peer review prior to their being uploaded to the new site it would be appreciated. (pm me a copy too)

Thank you to everyone who is helping with this.
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Old 02-05-2010, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Uhhlexxxis View Post
I stopped at this because it's absolutely, 100% true.

didn't need to read 81 pages of BS to know this.

/end
You really need to update your User CP. It's only 21 pages for me. It's still 80 plus posts but a little less frustrating figuring out where you were last if you are interrupted.
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Old 03-22-2010, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Peter Venkman View Post
Those are to be earned, not bought.
I agree! The credential of LEO has no price on it.
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Old 03-24-2010, 10:01 PM
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Those are to be earned, not bought.
hah. Men earn the title Marine, or Soldier. leo is a civilian. a peer of the populace.

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Old 06-18-2011, 10:15 AM
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Those are to be earned, not bought.
Capitalist society - EVERYTHING can be bought, whether it is right or wrong is another matter!
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