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Old 12-18-2012, 1:57 PM
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ZombieTactics ZombieTactics is offline
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Originally Posted by va_dinger View Post
First of all your comments are either woefully ignorant or you are purposefully trying trivialize the training, skills, and capabilities of true Special Operations personnel.
Jeez Paul, calm down a bit, OK? Whether I am ignorant or not is open to debate, but I can say with a straight face that some of my sources - from which I form my opinions - are a few steps up the chain of command from the people you promote. If they are wrong, perhaps they are ignorant as well, who knows? I tend to think people with stars ion their lapels might know a thing or two. There is no "trivializing" of anything, but rather an attempt to thoughtfully put things in a rational context. How is there any harm or insult in that, unless the expectation is unquestioning, obsequious hero worship?

Originally Posted by va_dinger View Post
I’ve noticed many times that guys who would like to discount or trivialize SO experience often reference only “Team Tactics” & “Military Support”. Same reason they use passive-aggressive quotes “ “ around the word “Tier 1”. They are trying to infer that all they did is dress in black and fast rope out of helicopters.
I make no such implication and resent the attempt to completely mistake my comments as such. Without trivializing anything or anyone, I'd note that which should e obvious: they are all men, not deities. I'm certain they put their big-boy pants on one leg at a time like all of the rest of us. If you are suggesting some kind of worship, based upon their past deeds ... sorry, I bow to no man and only one God. His name isn't any of those you've noted.

Originally Posted by va_dinger View Post
Unfortunately for them and our nation’s enemies this is absolutely false. They receive extensive training & operational experience in extremely hostile environment covert/concealed carry, diplomatic security, low vis (Blending in) operations, etc, etc, etc ...
It's just bizarre that you feel it necessary to include the first "Unfortunately for them and our nation’s enemies ..." ... this is a conversation, not a recruitment poster. When I need the benefit of "extensive training & operational experience in extremely hostile environment covert/concealed carry, diplomatic security, low vis (Blending in) operations" for my trip to the local mall, I'll concede your point in this regard. Until then, I'll simply note that you are actually making my case: that the training and operational experience of those you promote may have little to do with the requirements of civilians seeking training for self defense. It's still damned interesting, and it's till something I want exposure to, but it's also still a different lane. For my money, I think the experience of someone who has been an undercover narcotics agent for 10+ years might be a closer match. That's one of my instructors ... another was on a high-incident SWAT team for 20 years ... but not good enough I guess? Give it a rest.

You don’t have to be the sharpest tool in the shed to realize these skills correlate directly to civilian training classes; covert/concealed carry = civilian concealed carry, diplomatic security = personal defense/defense of family, Low Vis Operations = civilian concealed carry, CQB = Home Defense, etc, etc.
I think you're "shoe-horning" the argument here. That's just an opinion, but you offer no compelling reasoning to believe otherwise. It's probably the case that there is overlap, but not really responsible (IMHO) to suggest that they are the same thing(s), owing to vast differences context and operational scope. However, I'm open to correction. Tell me one or two things which ONLY one of your instructors could teach me, relating directly to a citizen self-defense skill set. Is it one guy or the other one who alone knows the super secret method to surviving an armed robbery attempt? Please be specific. I'm no virgin in this respect. I've had a gun pushed up to my neck twice, and I'm still here. Wanna talk?

If you are forced to defend your home with your family in the next room or forced to defend yourself in a crowded mall do you want to have been trained by one of the world’s finest handgun shooters or a guy who shoots into a berm to avoid showing you he has boringly average weapon skills?
See my comments earlier regarding performers vs coaches. You've given no reason to believe it works any differently in this case, aside from an unsupported assertion that it must be so. If someone is a good instructor, and teaches skill which are useful, that's the only requirement as far as am concerned. What else is required? Do my rounds get extra stopping power if I have an Alias patch on my range bag? If not, please stow the self-aggrandizing hyperbole. The experience and reputation of your associates speak for themselves, trying to oversell it doesn't do you or them proud.

Originally Posted by va_dinger View Post
I only got involved because I noticed the names being thrown around are friends & business associates of mine. Rest assured they will not be used to sell somebody else’s classes.
Where did anyone's name get used to sell something? The names you reference were only noted by others as offering superior value or better training (than Pincus) by those who believe it to be so. You'd be better off letting them speak for themselves than trying to ride in like some kind of "white knight and defender of the faith". You and I have traded a bit of email and we had one (pleasant enough, I thought) conversation over the phone. You didn't strike me as unhinged at the time, so I have to admit that this side of you is unexpected.

Originally Posted by va_dinger View Post
My statements were spot on. Trust me. ...
You are welcome to your opinion, and it will be considered as such. When you back it up with something aside from insults, character assassination and unsupported-assertions-presented-as-fact. they will be considered as such in that case also. Perhaps in your role as a promoter it might do you well to first note the difference.

Paul, as far as I know you are a good guy running a successful business. I have no idea why you've chosen to insert yourself into a side issue having almost nothing to to do with the nature of your business, or the very excellent people you represent. The vitriol and nastiness is unnecessary and unprovoked. It's enough that you do good work, nothing else is necessary.

I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective.

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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 12-18-2012 at 6:10 PM..
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