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Old 08-23-2011, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
How can you be so flippant about the value of the property seized and destroyed?
I never stated whether or not that I agree with the way the law works or how a LEO (warden) can do what he/she does regarding the specific question the OP originally asked. As to being flilppant? I beg to differ that statement. I take the law and search & seizure very seriously.

Originally Posted by choprzrul
Sorry, there is no way for me to read the 4th Amendment and then reconcile seizure and destruction of personal property by an agent of the government simply because said agent was ignorant of the facts. Destroying personal property simply for the purpose of inspecting to see if a crime has been committed is completely wrong. If the warden asked to see my ammo and observes a lead spitzer, then it would be justified.
Did you even read my earlier post in detail? I explained to you that the LEO would have to ARTICULATE the facts on how he suspected the bullet to contain lead. He would also have to articulate his training and experience and then form the opinion that what the hunter possessed was illegal. Therefore, he sezied the bullet! Perfectly legal, but it's up to a judge to decide if his articulated facts, training and experience were all enough to convince the court that what he did was legal. This by the way is not hard to do at all, buddy. You just don't get it, so you ignorantly attack.
Originally Posted by choprzrul
However, inspecting ammo and NOT observing anything with lead doesn't pass muster.
....Again, not only does he inspect the ammo, the warden must articulate why he believes the bullet is illegal. IF he can do that, he then takes it as evidence and you still stand there in the field say, "hey, you can't do that!" He just did. When he asked you to show him your bullets and you comply, he then looks at it and his investigation begins. It can go either up or down hill from there.

If the warden decides to take the bullet because he strongly believes it is illegal, yet isn't sure (or maybe hes positive it's an illegal one), a crime lab will test it (maybe without destroying it) and issue a finding. Then it's up to a deputy DA to decide if charges should move forward based on the totality of the evidence and circumstances for court proceedings. Ultimately a court will decide if that was a legal seizure or not by the Warden. It happens EVERY SINGLE DAY, all across America.
Originally Posted by choprzrul
What you are articulating is using a LACK of evidence to be used for reasonable suspicion as justification.
No, if it can't be articulated enough by the warden, that may POSSIBLY be a lack of evidence. You're watching too much Miami CSI or something. Remember my hypothetical example I gave you regarding finding the "rock cocaine" on the floorboard of a car? Is it cocaine, or a pop-corn kernal???? With articulable facts laid out by the LEO, that rock/pop-corn CAN BE CONFISCATED FOR TESTING. Again, you don't understand and no matter how long I or anyone else explains it to you, you maintain that I'm "flippant."
When you don't understand something, you apparently toss out insults.

I showed you in print from the state of California's DFG website what they said they can do; coupled with personal experience of what LEO can legally do regarding seizure of evidence (yes, your personal property) if they reasonably believe and CAN ARTICULATE that what they have confiscated may be used in a crime. For this thread, that would be a bullet they possibly believe to contain lead, yet you continue to tell yourself that LE can't do what I've just breifly outlined.

I don't know how to explain ignorance. That's not an insult, it's just fact. You don't believe something, therefore you are correct apparently. How can I or anyone else convince you otherwise when you don't want to hear reality? I've even given you two very "roughly" explained examples of how legally obtained evidence may be seized by LE, coupled with a link to the DFG website stating that they CAN take your bullet for testing. Mind you, that DFG handout appears to have been written for "simpletons" because it is an extremely basic advisory. However, they've been posting that info I tried to explain to you now for the last 3 years. It hasn't been removed from their public information posts yet.

I personally don't agree with some of the laws regarding what the police can and can't do, but this is how it is here. You mentioned the fact that people can't have their property taken by the police, well it's done all the time. It's called evidence. Evidene can be used to prove or DISPROVE guilt of a crime.
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