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-   -   Homebuilt AK (and other firearms) - Serial Numbers and other issues (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=86627)

hoffmang 02-12-2008 8:44 PM

Homebuilt AK (and other firearms) - Serial Numbers and other issues
 
The question of "do I have to put a serial number" on my home built AK or other firearm has been coming up a lot recently.

Here is the law as I understand it with support below:

1. It is not required that you put the build location or a serial number on a firearm that you build at home.

2. You can not build a firearm at home with the intent to immediately sell it.

3. Prudence may dictate that you do want to place a serial number on the firearm as LEOs may not understand and think that you have obliterated a serial number which is illegal under both Federal and California law. I recommend your initials and a number - something like Redwood City, CA - GH-0001.

4. If years later you decide you want to sell your homebuilt rifle to someone else, you can, but it will require that it have a serial number and place of manufacture per Federal law.

5. Please be careful about the California definition of "zip gun" in PC 12020. Building a firearm that is the same design as a firearm that has been or is being sold commercially is safe but there are large and dangerous grey areas for designs that are not already in commerce. Building an AK, FAL, or AR is not a problem under the zip gun definition however.

6. DOJ BoF has opined that private individuals can manufacture non rostered handguns. However, I'm not 100% confident of their legal reasoning so do be careful in that arena.

7. Always be mindful that constructive possession does apply to machine gun parts. Never have a receiver that can accept FA FCGs and generally don't have FA FCG parts around period. Searching the forum will give you more information that at least one Calgunner has gotten into Federal hot water over FA fire control parts.

For clarification on the serial number issue please refer to this ATF letter:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BAT...2004-11-09.pdf

Hopefully this clears much of this area up.

-Gene

pbrand 02-12-2008 8:46 PM

Great write up, thanks for the information!

hoffmang 02-12-2008 9:17 PM

To clarify my point 7 above a bit, everyone should read through this thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=84417

-Gene

RossRinSD 02-12-2008 9:17 PM

that answers some questions for me...

The AK parts kits don't come with a FA fire group do they??

I was working on that 922r checklist
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance

I was going to use my current FCG to save a few bucks since I need a US made magazine and furniture. I just assumed they were SA...

hoffmang 02-12-2008 9:19 PM

Ross,

We posted at the same time so you may want to review my post above yours.

-Gene

ptoguy2002 02-12-2008 9:26 PM

Thanks Gene.
Wow, you are right, a "zip gun" has a very broad definition
It pretty much covers just about everything.

redneckshootist 02-12-2008 9:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RossRinSD (Post 998378)
that answers some questions for me...

The AK parts kits don't come with a FA fire group do they??

I was working on that 922r checklist
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance

I was going to use my current FCG to save a few bucks since I need a US made magazine and furniture. I just assumed they were SA...

ross I purchaced three kits all from gunbroker, didnt buy them from any big vendors. all three kits came with the full auto parts. as soon as I saw them I cut them up with a torch. I think it depends on who you buy it from some do some dont.

adamsreeftank 02-12-2008 9:31 PM

If you recommend a serial number and a location, what about a manufacutrer name. IE GH-Arms. Would that be neccessary or helpful?

hoffmang 02-12-2008 9:41 PM

Looking more closely at 27 CFR 478.92 you need to place your name, caliber, serial number and manufacturing location on any firearm you wish to be able to sell. A model designation appears optional.

-Gene

oaklander 02-12-2008 9:47 PM

Thanks for the post, Gene!

:D

Good info - especially for the flat-benders out there!

m24armorer 02-12-2008 9:48 PM

478.92 is for 07 FFL's.

I do recommend for home builds:
Caliber: Whatever it is.
Make: HB and your last name.
Model: Your choice.
And some serial number. Do not use your DL or SSN.

hoffmang 02-12-2008 10:07 PM

The ATF letter I posted above refers to 478.92 for the marking requirements necessary for later transfer of a homebuilt firearm.

-Gene

m24armorer 02-12-2008 10:17 PM

478.92 How must licensed manufacturers
and licensed importers identify
firearms, armor piercing ammunition,
and large capacity ammunition
feeding devices?


Funny, this has not been updated from 2004.

m24armorer 02-12-2008 10:20 PM

Gene,not butting heads with you....

m24armorer 02-12-2008 10:28 PM

Gee, butter my buns and call me a biscuit! My un messed with ATF regs book confirms what you speak. And then it gets smoke and mirrors.

my bad......

hoffmang 02-12-2008 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m24armorer (Post 998516)
Funny, this has not been updated from 2004.

FYI - the letter I posted above was only my quick and cursory research on ATF guidance. Let me dig a little more and see if there is anything newer.

Either way, the section quoted is certainly safe guidance for home built markings should someone want to be able to sell a home built firearm months or years after building it.

-Gene

rue 02-12-2008 11:10 PM

For serial number suggests I liked what another member posted recently,
"FU-CADOJ"
That's awesome

hoffmang 02-12-2008 11:21 PM

Please also remember that there are a few build issues beyond the ones I've outlined above but I didn't mention them as I'm pretty sure that people going down this path understand them. I'm particularly thinking of the US parts/922(r) issues, 12276.1 features issues, and AW/semiautomatic overall length issues.

-Gene

FEDUPWBS 02-13-2008 3:42 AM

STICKY THIS NOW!!

Cali-V 02-13-2008 6:04 AM

Gene
Thanks for the research...

+ on the sticky post thing

JeffM 02-13-2008 6:16 AM

Thanks for the write up here Gene, definitely should be a sticky.

Prc329 02-15-2008 6:36 AM

Should the part be engraved before or after finishing? Say taking an 80% lower. Should I have it engraved before i finish it or after it is 100%?

socalguns 02-16-2008 1:15 AM

makes no difference, although you should engrave it before finishing :D (paint job)

hoffmang 02-16-2008 9:58 AM

The only place you will want to make sure that the unbent flat is marked before building is if/when you're building a pistol.

-Gene

thedrickel 02-16-2008 10:32 AM

Also, you will want to mark your flat as a pistol before acquiring any <16" barrels.

Don't believe any vendors that say "The FA parts are not included in these kits, they were removed by the importer" or "They come with some funky trigger group, we don't know what it is, but it's not the FA parts" :rolleyes:

If you believe that, I have some Chinese food w/o MSG to sell you, and maybe a bridge or two.

Prc329 02-16-2008 7:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoffmang (Post 1005402)
The only place you will want to make sure that the unbent flat is marked before building is if/when you're building a pistol.

-Gene

O.K. so since my 80% will be a pistol I should engrave it first.

oaklander 02-16-2008 7:58 PM

See also:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=83394

Utha Schleigle 02-18-2008 9:07 PM

Just for my info - what are the drawbacks my CA Driver License # and a following #. Any police officer could run my CA DRL# with out warrant or permission like a SS#. Say stamp CA DRL # N******* -01 for the firearm - then date of mfg 02-2007 and the original Commie # - 1982 AS 23*** and of coarse US MADE.

If the officer finds it in the car of some hood - the officer could run my # instantly and give the gun theif a rashon of DOO DOO. IF I am going to the range my # is in the gun witch the LEO could run at his car to revify.

I was also thinking of burning the # into the metal say .50mm to 1mm deep with the heat treating process in a spot that if the metal was ground away it would ruin the part and gun.

MrBurritoMan 09-23-2008 11:47 PM

so, just to ask a silly question. does this also work for other firearms that one would/could build at home.

say a 80% 1911a1?

i wrote the DoJ and am still waiting for something back however i am always looking for more information.

fpasuncion 12-01-2008 9:05 PM

and when building an AK pistol on a blank...922 compliance does not need to be followed

hoffmang 12-01-2008 9:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fpasuncion (Post 1745494)
and when building an AK pistol on a blank...922 compliance does not need to be followed

That may be true, but could you walk us through your Federal legal reasoning on that?

-Gene

oaklander 12-01-2008 9:43 PM

If he's referring to 922(r) - here's the statute:

Quote:

(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to—
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.
Not sure if he's referring to other parts of 922.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoffmang (Post 1745648)
That may be true, but could you walk us through your Federal legal reasoning on that?

-Gene


JeffM 12-01-2008 9:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoffmang (Post 1745648)
That may be true, but could you walk us through your Federal legal reasoning on that?

-Gene

LOL

That (r) [or lack there of] can make a big difference!

fpasuncion 12-02-2008 11:16 AM

thanks, oaklander...that's what i was referring to. 922 refers only to rifle and shotgun and does not specifically mentions pistols

AaronHorrocks 12-10-2008 10:08 AM

Would an AK pistol even have 10 countable parts?

ke6guj 12-10-2008 11:03 AM

Yes it would. An AK pistol only has one less counted part, the shoulder stock.

AaronHorrocks 12-10-2008 12:01 PM

That'd be one front-end heavy pistol!

Post 88 06-30-2009 11:46 AM

Hi Gene,

Can I copy the serial # of the part kit to put it on my home build AK receiver not for sale?

hoffmang 06-30-2009 1:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Post 88 (Post 2707730)
Can I copy the serial # of the part kit to put it on my home build AK receiver not for sale?

As long as you identify yourself as the manufacturer and the actual manufactured location, yes.

-Gene

Post 88 06-30-2009 1:14 PM

Gene,

Thanks for quick response!


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