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-   -   Senators Suggests the NSA May Have Illegally Created A National Gun Registry (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=790821)

TeddyBallgame 07-10-2013 12:58 AM

Senators Suggests the NSA May Have Illegally Created A National Gun Registry
 
not sure if this was discussed here, did a bit of a search, found nothing

Quote:

Senators are questioning whether the National Security Agency collected bulk data on more than just Americans’ phone records, such as firearm and book purchases.

A bipartisan group of 26 senators, led by Sen. Ron Wyden (D., Ore.) asked Director of National Intelligence James Clapper to detail the scope and limits of the National Security Agency’s surveillance activities in a letter released Friday.
http://www.rightwingnews.com/nsa/bip...-gun-registry/

kygen 07-10-2013 1:00 AM

I'm pretty sure they know a lot more than we think they know

SonofWWIIDI 07-10-2013 1:06 AM

Color me surprised that a government agency covertly violates our rights and will probably not be sanctioned for it...no wait, no such agency monitor, I didn't mean anything I just said, I really meant I think that no such agency should be able to do whatever it wants. It's for the children after all.

safewaysecurity 07-10-2013 1:40 AM

Pass universal background checks they said, it won't lead to a national gun registry they said.

TeddyBallgame 07-10-2013 2:12 AM

Quote:

However, the government has defended the program, saying it helped thwart several terrorist attacks and is minimally invasive.
I really like that "minimally invasive" part, that makes it all better

How can this not border on abuse of the PATRIOT ACT?

Safety1st 07-10-2013 2:18 AM

They're storing ALL phone, txt, and email. Accessing credit card company info should be a snap. Purchasing habits reveal quite a bit.

cdtx2001 07-10-2013 5:39 AM

Anyone who doesn't think this sort of information isn't already known to the gub'ment and has been stored for a while is a fool to think (or wish) otherwise.

mavericksun 07-10-2013 5:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by safewaysecurity (Post 11782071)
Pass universal background checks they said, it won't lead to a national gun registry they said.

They only said the Attorney General could not "consolidating or centralizing records of gun sales and gun ownership." It doesn't mean the NSA, DHS, ICE, or any other agency could not create the registry. The language also means if they de-centralize the database, it's not violating the letter of the law. States like California already have a registry. If all states have the registry and the AG has access to all of them, it's still not violating the law.

lasbrg 07-10-2013 6:33 AM

The link to the original Senators' letter is here. (The .pdf doesn't allow text copying for some reason.)

The only positive to come out of this may be a dawning realization with civil liberties types that 2A defenders are not paranoid and that they had the correct idea all along. Drop this "common sense" BS and treat rights as rights. Not just 1A, but the entire Bill of Rights. If national intelligence is not all-knowing, that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

glock7 07-10-2013 6:48 AM

well, color me surprised! they've always known. heck, all they have to do is go to facebook or track my internet visits, calguns, PSA, BCM, Natchez, RMR, Powder Valley, 3rdgen, rogtac, arf, m4carbine....shucks man, i've done made it too easy for 'em.

trevorlc 07-10-2013 7:21 AM

It would not be all the surprising, though it will probably be denied and lied about until it some how leaks or otherwise comes out and which point Obama will tell us how its completely legal and there is all sorts of checks/balances he can't explain to protect our rights or he will just play dumb and give the "I had no idea! You can't expect me to be responsible for EVERYTHING!"

Loco45 07-10-2013 7:39 AM

The NSA is our own Gestapo Police and if they read this, yes I mean it! Spying on American citizens is unconstitutional and violates the 4th amendment! By doing so, they are committing a very big crime and they should be tried for their crimes just like all the rest of the criminals

JohnnyMtn 07-10-2013 7:50 AM

Realize that just by viewing pages here and then especially posting ups your profile to some degree on govt gun watch lists because IPs are mapped to "gun" sites in order to create profiles.

Now, maybe I'm getting too into that paranoid world but in today's day and age of Big Data, I would bet heavily that this type of data is collected and assembled. Govt officials would say "don't worry - its only meta data." But just the fact that citizens are viewed with suspicion is what is intolerable, in my opinion.

CCWFacts 07-10-2013 7:53 AM

Dude...

Why are they worried about the NSA?

Every major on-line retailer today is using Visa Level 3 data these days.

What is Level 3 data?

From the Visa web page:
Level I and II data elements plus
Item description
Item quantity
Item unit of measure
Item total
Item commodity code
Item product code
Item unit cost
Item VAT tax amount/rate
Very easy to make a list of all the item product codes that are firearms-related. Very easy to figure out from descriptions.

Visa already has a huge database of all gun-related buyers.

mavericksun 07-10-2013 7:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyMtn (Post 11782757)
Realize that just by viewing pages here and then especially posting ups your profile to some degree on govt gun watch lists because IPs are mapped to "gun" sites in order to create profiles.

Now, maybe I'm getting too into that paranoid world but in today's day and age of Big Data, I would bet heavily that this type of data is collected and assembled. Govt officials would say "don't worry - its only meta data." But just the fact that citizens are viewed with suspicion is what is intolerable, in my opinion.

It's even easier than that these days. Just access one of the tracking cookies from the ad sites and you got plenty of information about who accessed what sites and what they looked at.

DTOM CA! 07-10-2013 7:59 AM

"Of the people, by the people" The Constitution is being disregarded every day now and very little is being done about it. They have an inquiry investigation, they lie about it or take the 5th, some lower level guy that was going to retire sort of takes the fall and it all gets swept under the rug. Why wouldn't our Government collect every piece of data on Americans including gun purchases ? I just explained above no one gets in trouble so why not. It would just be some "rogue" low level staffer doing it by mistake (yeah right). As long as the zombies (aka low info voters, 49% and democrats) get there welfare, housing, EBT's and Obamaphones nothing will change. You can't fight against Santa Claus even if he is trampling our Bill of Rights.

SilverTauron 07-10-2013 8:00 AM

NSA?

Puhleeze. If the government wants to know who owns guns, they won't track the weapons. They'll subpoena the credit card and bank records of everyone who's bought something on CTD, MidwayUSA, Beretta USA's website, and other online dealers. Physical registries of guns are so 1990s.

uxo2 07-10-2013 8:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kygen (Post 11781930)
I'm pretty sure they know a lot more than we think they know

everything.
If it was generated electronic.
I bet they have it

Sutcliffe 07-10-2013 8:17 AM

I would be shocked if they haven't
 
Given their, already far reaching, abuse of power, why wouldn't they want to know who has firearms?

CCWFacts 07-10-2013 8:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverTauron (Post 11782811)
They'll subpoena the credit card and bank records of everyone who's bought something on CTD, MidwayUSA, Beretta USA's website, and other online dealers.

They don't even need a subpoena. They already have warantless access to all that info.

The one thing that's on our side is that about half of Americans own guns. A registry of gun owners isn't too meaningful. It's also extremely easy to predict who is a gun owner. How many registered-Republican whites aren't gun owners?

dustoff31 07-10-2013 8:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCWFacts (Post 11782916)
They don't even need a subpoena. They already have warantless access to all that info.

The one thing that's on our side is that about half of Americans own guns. A registry of gun owners isn't too meaningful. It's also extremely easy to predict who is a gun owner. How many registered-Republican whites aren't gun owners?

Indeed. In fact, for their purposes it would be quite reasonable for them to assume that everyone either owns or has access to a gun.

mrrabbit 07-10-2013 9:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Safety1st (Post 11782141)
They're storing ALL phone, txt, and email. Accessing credit card company info should be a snap. Purchasing habits reveal quite a bit.

They're not storing ALL...

They're storing:

1. Logs (Voice, Fax, Data)
2. MetaData - To/From/Subject/Etc. (Email, HTTP/HTTPS Req)
3. Content that has been auto-flagged. (Everyone)
4. Content that has been flagged by request. (Specific Persons)

#3. Creates a ton of false flags - filtering of those by additional servers and actual human staff reduces it considerably to that which actually needs to be stored.

Otherwise, no matter how much disk space they have - they'd run out in a matter of days...even a 1000 football fields of NetApps, EMC and IBM disk arrays wouldn't last a week if EVERYTHING were being stored. It's a losing proposition.

What you really are when being monitored is a PROCESS.

As a process you exist in buffers in memory.

So long as you haven't flagged anything - or have a flag request against you - you continue to reside in buffers in memory and as the buffers are filled with streamed data - the buffers are dumped into "/dev/null". Thus for the most part leaving "disk space" alone.

Should a call get stored - it's about 1 Meg for 3 minutes. Almost nothing compared to the disk space they have.

Logs are very low foot print...once again...almost nothing compared to the disk space they have.

MetaData are very low foot print...once again...almost nothing compared to the disk space they have.

Actual files, documents, photos, videos and formatted drawings are another whole ballgame. That's where auto-flagging and requested-flagging have to be fine tuned constantly to make certain they get what they want without wiping out disk space.

This crap has been going on since the 70s - with the files / documents side of it getting the regular updates and increased capacity and processing updates.

And it has gone from "national security" (which was questionable to begin with) to outright patent and business secrets theft, blackmail, and internal spying to interfere with litigation.

And of course, the whole system is protected by certain courts and congressional committees from prying eyes wanting to know what is there and what exactly it is being used for on a case by case basis.

I'll guarantee you this:

They already have a gun registry that is about 80% percent accurate. They already have a registry of people who have bought ammo in the past. They already know where all the expired H1-B's are. They already know where all the illegal aliens are both H1-B and border crosser wise. And they already know where all the gang-bangers are that are actual cartel members.

But here's the scary part:

They absolutely already know the following:

1. Where our LEO and MIL veterans are.
2. Where the law abiding citizens are.
3. Their SSI #'s, Birth Certs, Accounts, Titles, Finger Prints and Firearms.
4. Their associations. (Logs and MetaData Establish This)

Which means, they already have the capability to create chaos for US when politically necessary. Everyone has a profile

And I guarantee you the IRS has unrestricted access...

=8-)

There's a big gapping hole in the system - from the analysis side of things - and plays a role in why it is I think Snowden is a phony distraction to hide what Obama and Holder are really using the system for - they're in panic mode in my opinion - they're not trying to find someone - they're trying to find something.

=8-)

SilverTauron 07-10-2013 9:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrrabbit (Post 11783330)
They already have a gun registry that is about 80% percent accurate. They already have a registry of people who have bought ammo in the past.....


=8-)

I disagree.

Its one thing to have raw data. Its another matter entirely to be able to practically use it. I've little doubt that Uncle Sam has a fairly good idea who owns guns in this country. The problem the Feds face is practical application of that data for civil disarmament.

Sure, the Feds know who owns firearms. But what guns? Where are they located? Have the firearms traded hands recently? The Feds need to know who owns what, where , when , and HOW MUCH-and to a precise T. In order for the opposition to use the Law to prosecute us for owning guns, they need a consolidated and accurate data source which can be used in open criminal and civil court as evidence.

That is why the anti's cannot advance their agenda without an open, publicly accepted national gun registry akin to the UK's and England's. There's a vast difference between a shadowy computer intercept saying "PERSON X BOUGHT 2x 9mm Ammunition" and "Person X owns Handgun Make Y, at Address Z."

mrrabbit 07-10-2013 10:29 AM

Profiles are kept in X.500 / LDAP / SQL type databases...

What little content data is kept is linked from within...

Not that hard....it ain't rocket science to those who have worked in IT in global data centers.

=8-)

stix213 07-10-2013 10:35 AM

The phone meta data on everyone they are storing likely also includes your exact location even while not talking on the phone. Your phone stays in constant communication with the towers, and based on factors such as signal strength to the various towers they have your location.

So they know if you've ever gone to a gun store, gun show, etc.

Also, since Clapper flat out lied in front of congress pre-Snowden about this, why would anyone think he would admit to an illegal gun registry until someone like Snowden drops the proof? He'll just lie again until caught, then claim some BS to weasel out of it. That is what this administration does from the top down.

skilletboy 07-10-2013 12:35 PM

Honestly I bet the NSA knows and stores data on EVERYTHING THEY COULD POSSIBLY THINK OF.

AyatollahGondola 07-10-2013 1:21 PM

Won't "shall issue" laws in every state also connect the government to a registry of firearms also? I mean, as I understand it, you must declare the firearm you intend to carry

SilverTauron 07-10-2013 1:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola (Post 11784937)
Won't "shall issue" laws in every state also connect the government to a registry of firearms also? I mean, as I understand it, you must declare the firearm you intend to carry

Not in my state, nor in many others. California and New York are the outliers which mandate each specific handgun be listed by name on a carry permit.

morfeeis 07-10-2013 4:07 PM

them knowing is one thing them getting them is a comply different thing. At this point i envision a little NSA guy on my shoulder watching everything i do say and see.

Dutch3 07-10-2013 4:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morfeeis (Post 11786292)
them knowing is one thing them getting them is a comply different thing. At this point i envision a little NSA guy on my shoulder watching everything i do say and see.

You mean like Google NSA Glass?


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