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-   -   My LGS, CA Laws, and a confused me. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=786780)

DBoulant 07-01-2013 1:35 PM

My LGS, CA Laws, and a confused me.
 
My Wife is an LEO, finally on the road to recovery after a mild case of the cancer and was going to treat herself to a new arsenal.

Two off roster pistols (XDS and LCP in Raspberry) and one on roster (SIG 226)

She asked me if it would be possible to buy them together at one time since she's LEO, wait the 10 days as to not have to deal with her CO, and grab them up. I thought she'd be good to go today, what with the exemptions that LEOs are fortunate to have.

She was told by our guy that she can only do 1 every 30 days unless she had a letter from her CO which would result in 1 every 5 days. (new to me, I thought letters just exempted her from the 10 day wait.)

She also was going to buy me a rifle for our anniversary and they came back with she cannot purchase a long gun and a pistol the same day. (also new to me, though never tested it)

I've done a cursory search through the laws and didn't see anything, one way or the other, about these. I like my LGS, I won't argue with them about it as we can't find ammo so there's no rush, was just trying to save on Dros fees and paperwork if possible, but I'm curious to know if this is in fact the way it is and I am just horribly misinformed. (Quite likely)

I'm confused as to how often my C.O.E. will let me buy now as well.

HappyCamper781 07-01-2013 1:45 PM

Sounds like LGS policy, not actual laws.

ASD1 07-01-2013 1:49 PM

A COE with out a FFL dose not get you any thing

LE can buy off roster guns and the 1 in 30 rule dose not apply but that is all being LE get you with out a letter from your/their CO

any one can buy a pistol and a long gun on the same day

ke6guj 07-01-2013 1:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBoulant (Post 11715447)
My Wife is an LEO, finally on the road to recovery after a mild case of the cancer and was going to treat herself to a new arsenal.

Two off roster pistols (XDS and LCP in Raspberry) and one on roster (SIG 226)

She asked me if it would be possible to buy them together at one time since she's LEO, wait the 10 days as to not have to deal with her CO, and grab them up. I thought she'd be good to go today, what with the exemptions that LEOs are fortunate to have.

She was told by our guy that she can only do 1 every 30 days unless she had a letter from her CO which would result in 1 every 5 days. (new to me, I thought letters just exempted her from the 10 day wait.)

the law is pretty clear here. and I dont' even know where they came up with the 1-in-5 rule?


27535. (a) No person shall make an application to purchase more
than one handgun within any 30-day period.
(b) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following:
(5) Any person who is properly identified as a full-time paid
peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section
830) of Title 3 of Part 2, and who is authorized to, and does carry a
firearm during the course and scope of employment as a peace
officer.
there is no requirement in that exemption for the LEO to have a letter for that exemption.



Quote:

She also was going to buy me a rifle for our anniversary and they came back with she cannot purchase a long gun and a pistol the same day. (also new to me, though never tested it)
no law against that either, but it can't be done on one DROS, so the LGS might be confused there.

Quote:

I've done a cursory search through the laws and didn't see anything, one way or the other, about these. I like my LGS, I won't argue with them about it as we can't find ammo so there's no rush, was just trying to save on Dros fees and paperwork if possible, but I'm curious to know if this is in fact the way it is and I am just horribly misinformed. (Quite likely)

I'm confused as to how often my C.O.E. will let me buy now as well.
you'd save around $5 per gun in DROS fees, not a lot, but it is there. $25 for the first handgun, and $19 for each additional handgun.

take pretty much the same amount of paperwork. one DROS for each handgun and rifle (although you might be able to just do one 4473 for everything, but that depends on the FFL. some one one 4473 for each DROS, makes filing the paperwork easier in case of audits). and if you bought multiple handguns in a 5-day period from that FFL, then they would need to send in a notice to ATF about it (that might be where they came up with the 1-in-5 BS so they wouldn't need to file a multiple handgun purchase report).

Quiet 07-01-2013 2:52 PM

IMO...
1 in 5 days = store policy because they do not want to deal with the BATFE multiple handgun reporting requirement, which is required when a person acquires 2 or more handguns within a five day time period.

DBoulant 07-01-2013 8:57 PM

Thanks for the input. much appreciated.

I thought it was odd due to them pitching "five long guns at a time" to me the other day and jokingly pointing me towards the more expensive items they had (and I might get anyway)

ke6guj 07-01-2013 9:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBoulant (Post 11719252)
Thanks for the input. much appreciated.

I thought it was odd due to them pitching "five long guns at a time" to me the other day and jokingly pointing me towards the more expensive items they had (and I might get anyway)

interesting as most likely those long guns would have included at least 2 that would have triggered a "multiple rifle purchase within 5 days" notification like for that of handguns mentioned above, so that excuse goes out the window that they didnt want to do the extra paperwork.

tenpercentfirearms 07-03-2013 5:26 AM

Find a new dealer. No way in hell would I ever make your wife jump through ridiculous hoops when the State of California has granted her special privileges that makes both of our lives easier. She is 1 in 30 day exempt under the Peace Officer heading and only needs her department ID, she is roster exempt with her ID, and we would most certainly run her handguns and long guns all at the same time (though regrettably on three different DROS).

That other shop is giving you such run around, you definitely need to find a shop that values your time and business more than to make your life more difficult than the State of California requires.

tonyxcom 07-03-2013 9:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quiet (Post 11716070)
IMO...
1 in 5 days = store policy because they do not want to deal with the BATFE multiple handgun reporting requirement, which is required when a person acquires 2 or more handguns within a five day time period.

That's only a requirement on PICK-UP as I understand it. Meaning you can buy or PPT two hand guns on the same day, you just need to pick them up at least 5 days apart so they don't have to "walk that paper work over" (don't know if the hand delivery part is true).

kemasa 07-03-2013 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyxcom (Post 11731582)
That's only a requirement on PICK-UP as I understand it. Meaning you can buy or PPT two hand guns on the same day, you just need to pick them up at least 5 days apart so they don't have to "walk that paper work over" (don't know if the hand delivery part is true).

Yes, that is correct, but it is not actually 5 days, it is 5 business days that the FFL is open.

The multiple purchase is not really a big deal. I suspect that they get tons of them and unless you are doing it often, it will just be ignored. You could do the PPT at a second FFL, then it would not be reported.

DBoulant 07-09-2013 2:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms (Post 11730183)
Find a new dealer. No way in hell would I ever make your wife jump through ridiculous hoops when the State of California has granted her special privileges that makes both of our lives easier. She is 1 in 30 day exempt under the Peace Officer heading and only needs her department ID, she is roster exempt with her ID, and we would most certainly run her handguns and long guns all at the same time (though regrettably on three different DROS).

That other shop is giving you such run around, you definitely need to find a shop that values your time and business more than to make your life more difficult than the State of California requires.


Went to a couple more shops, they both gave the 1 in 30 line, even though one knew of the FFL03 + COE exemption which I thought was odd.

Tempted to run down and just have the other one DROS the SIG we found and see what happens.

tenpercentfirearms 07-09-2013 8:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBoulant (Post 11773769)
Went to a couple more shops, they both gave the 1 in 30 line, even though one knew of the FFL03 + COE exemption which I thought was odd.

Tempted to run down and just have the other one DROS the SIG we found and see what happens.

The CA DOJ DROS computer is not subject to human error. If you try to DROS two handguns in 30 days, it will catch it and it will deny the DROS.

kemasa 07-09-2013 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms (Post 11774775)
The CA DOJ DROS computer is not subject to human error. If you try to DROS two handguns in 30 days, it will catch it and it will deny the DROS.

Actually, it is subject to human error. I had a case where the person did two transfers of handguns, at two different places, and even though the other FFL marked the transaction as being exempt from the 1 in 30, the CA DOJ called me saying that he had violated the 1 in 30. Fortunately I knew where he had done the other transfer and knew the FFL, so I called to confirm that it was processed correctly. The funny thing is that I never heard back and the DROS was not cancelled.

But as to doing two handguns within 30 days which are not exempt to the 1 in 30, that, as said, will get caught and the DROS will be cancelled.

DBoulant 07-10-2013 2:35 AM

I might be confused again...

To clarify, what needs to happen for the following to be legal and approved by CA DOJ and ATF. Special codes and all that (if possible at all)


Senario 1: LEO Buys and DROS two handguns on Monday

Senario 2: LEO DROS a handgun on monday, and they DROS another on Thursday?

tenpercentfirearms 07-10-2013 5:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kemasa (Post 11775743)
Actually, it is subject to human error. I had a case where the person did two transfers of handguns, at two different places, and even though the other FFL marked the transaction as being exempt from the 1 in 30, the CA DOJ called me saying that he had violated the 1 in 30. Fortunately I knew where he had done the other transfer and knew the FFL, so I called to confirm that it was processed correctly. The funny thing is that I never heard back and the DROS was not cancelled.

Your example does not apply here. One of you did the DROS wrong and the computer caught it as I said. Cool story bro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kemasa (Post 11775743)
But as to doing two handguns within 30 days which are not exempt to the 1 in 30, that, as said, will get caught and the DROS will be cancelled.

:facepalm:

kemasa 07-10-2013 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms (Post 11782493)
Your example does not apply here. One of you did the DROS wrong and the computer caught it as I said. Cool story bro.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Since the transfer I did was not exempt from the 1 in 30, there was nothing that I could have done wrong. Also, I checked with the other FFL and he correctly marked that it was exempt from the 1 in 30 and he confirmed that with the paperwork. The CA DOJ did not look at that field, due to human error, and incorrectly said it was a violation. When this was pointed out to them, they went silent, as they knew they were wrong, and the DROS that I submitted was not cancelled, which is what they had originally said had to be done.

You said that there could not be any human error, I showed that it actually happened, although in the reverse. It is also possible that the DOJ could make a mistake and not catch it due to how they seem to operate and how the system works.

tenpercentfirearms 07-10-2013 5:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kemasa (Post 11784109)
You said that there could not be any human error, I showed that it actually happened, although in the reverse. It is also possible that the DOJ could make a mistake and not catch it due to how they seem to operate and how the system works.

No, I said the computer doesn't make human error. Are you now claiming the computer made a human error? Further did you see the paperwork the guy submitted or is that what he told you over the phone? Don't answer, I don't care and you can make up what ever you want. It isn't relevant.

Has anyone ever had a 2 in 30 days go through and not get caught?

kemasa 07-10-2013 5:43 PM

Wes, you are the one making things up, not me.

Actually, I think I did actually see the paperwork as I did go over there, but that is not relevant and you are just making that up to try to defend your position. The fact is that he said he marked it and based on the CA DOJ not cancelling either DROS, that tends to confirm it.

Computers are programmed by humans, or do you think that everything is perfect? There is a problem with the DROS system in regards to C&R collectors and the 1 in 30 exemption.

tenpercentfirearms 07-10-2013 8:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kemasa (Post 11787593)
Wes, you are the one making things up, not me.

False. You said I said something I did not say. You lie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kemasa (Post 11787593)
Actually, I think I did actually see the paperwork as I did go over there, but that is not relevant and you are just making that up to try to defend your position. The fact is that he said he marked it and based on the CA DOJ not cancelling either DROS, that tends to confirm it.

Sure you went over there and looked. Totally believable.

The fact they called and asked and the dealer said he should have marked it 1 in 30 exempt and he forgot is the reason they allowed it to go through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kemasa (Post 11787593)
Computers are programmed by humans, or do you think that everything is perfect? There is a problem with the DROS system in regards to C&R collectors and the 1 in 30 exemption.

If you tell a computer to flag something, it flags it. It won't just decide one day to flag it and another day not to. Human error is possible, but computer error is quite rare if not impossible.

Again, do you know of any 2 in 30 days being approved? I know of many 2 in 30 days not being approved.

Once again, you just like to type a lot and type about nothing.

Like the other thread, I am moving on. Have fun arguing yourself in circles. Again, you will respond and you will harp on about the normal rantings. Enjoy yourself.

kemasa 07-10-2013 9:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms (Post 11788641)
False. You said I said something I did not say. You lie.

Yep, you like to make things up.

Quote:

Sure you went over there and looked. Totally believable.
Well, you are an idiot because I happen to stop by there fairly often. It is not that I went over there and looked, it is because I happened to stop by and so I believe I looked.

Quote:

The fact they called and asked and the dealer said he should have marked it 1 in 30 exempt and he forgot is the reason they allowed it to go through.
Let's see, I talked to him and the CA DOJ, I know what he told me and what was done, but you say all of that is wrong? So who did you talk to? So what do you see? What do you personally know? Where do you get that he forgot? Where do you get that they would let it go through because he said he forgot? Why do you think that they would let it go through if he claimed that he forgot? You know nothing and are just making it all up in order to make yourself feel better.

First off you have absolutely no idea of what happened, so you make up a story to be what you want it to be. The fact is that the DOJ did not call the dealer, I called and gave them the person's number and they called her. The next thing is that I seriously doubt that the DOJ would believe or care that the person forgot to mark it and then accept it later.

The real fact is that they did mark it and the DOJ did not look at that field. That is why they went silence.

The real fact is that you are making things up and don't know what you are talking about, but just have to win the argument, even if it takes lies to try to do so.

Quote:

If you tell a computer to flag something, it flags it. It won't just decide one day to flag it and another day not to. Human error is possible, but computer error is quite rare if not impossible.
Oh, I see, computers are magical and not programmed by humans, so computers always work correctly and do nothing wrong. I have seen far too many people think that if it comes out of a computer then it must be right, but they have no concept of garbage in, garbage out. The DROS system is a mess.

Quote:

Again, do you know of any 2 in 30 days being approved? I know of many 2 in 30 days not being approved.
That was not the issue I raised with you, it was in regards to the DROS system and human error, but it seems clear you just can't read and understand things.

Quote:

Once again, you just like to type a lot and type about nothing.
What an idiot, you lie, make things up and then make more false claims about me.

Quote:

Like the other thread, I am moving on. Have fun arguing yourself in circles. Again, you will respond and you will harp on about the normal rantings. Enjoy yourself.
Yep, you had best go away because you have been shown to be a liar. In this case you are worse than in the other threads because you made up things out of whole cloth in order to try to "win".

Librarian 07-11-2013 12:02 AM

And now with both participants getting their half-innings, we're done here.


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