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-   -   Me vs 1911 & Tight Barrel Nut/Vicious Recoil Spring & Plug (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=689103)

Phil3 01-26-2013 6:18 PM

Me vs 1911 & Tight Barrel Nut/Vicious Recoil Spring & Plug
 
I am wits end!!! I have hardly used my Dan Wesson Pointman 7 1911 in 45ACP (35 rounds), but decided to take it apart to clean since it had been sitting a while and the directions say to clean it before shooting anyway (oops).

I managed to get it apart, but wrestling with the very tight barrel bushing, very strong recoil spring, and recoil spring plug, was an absolute nightmare. If I thought that was bad, trying to reassemble these parts is even worse. I have tried for an hour and get this done (and haven't). I have watched Your Tube videos of how people do this with little effort, but the recoil spring in those videos appears weaker than mine. The barrel bushings in the videos are often turned by hand. Wrench only and a potent spring on my gun.

I managed to get it the barrel bushing out and the gun apart with the help of the Thumb Buddy.

http://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_thumbbuddy.php

Complicating assembly (other than the tight barrel bushing and vicious spring) is that the recoil spring plug hangs up on something about 1/8" shy of seating fully. Trying to wiggle it around while containing the potent spring, holding the gun, and using a wrench, is well, impossible. I gave up on the Thumb Buddy as it was another thing to hold, instead using some leather gloves to protect my fingers or thumb against the recoil spring plug. The pain of that ended my efforts prematurely.

The entire arrangement is diabolical. I dread having to clean this thing again, but unless I get it back together, there won't be a next time. Ideas on how to best approach this?

Phil

pyromensch 01-26-2013 6:23 PM

do you have the safety on, when you are doing this, it keeps the slide from moving.

and a pic or two of the muzzle end might help

redcliff 01-26-2013 6:47 PM

This is the method I've used for many years. Alchemy Custom happened to do a very good video of the same method to help people out with the tight Les Baers. It works extremely well on tight fitted 1911's and preserves the barrel to bushing fit. I think you'll see it's a much better way to do it on your tight DW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJhPari7dpc


skosh69 01-26-2013 7:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyromensch (Post 10331539)
do you have the safety on, when you are doing this, it keeps the slide from moving.

That has absolutely nothing to do with depressing the spring plug and turning the barrel bushing.

A lot of Dan Wesson's have "tight" bushings and until they've been turned a few times, they can be a real be-otch to remove.

Freq18Hz 01-26-2013 10:08 PM

Do what the video Redcliff suggested says to do.

You don't take apart a high end 1911 with a bushing wrench, it just loosens them up. Why manufacturers include them is a mystery to me...

I strip all my 1911's with the method posted above.

-Freq

Phil3 01-26-2013 11:00 PM

Thanks, I will try the video method. This looks a lot less troublesome!

I am not so happy that turning the barrel bushing is leaving a a light circular scratch or wear mark on the frame under where the half-moon part of the bushing is when it turned clockwise (looking at muzzle). Easy to see on the stainless bead blasted finish. I find no burrs on the bushing, but might be something on lug recess inside slide that I can not see, forcing a tight fit against against the face of the frame. Or maybe this kind of wear is normal when servicing the gun. ???

Phil

9mmepiphany 01-26-2013 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redcliff (Post 10331760)
This is the method I've used for many years. Alchemy Custom happened to do a very good video of the same method to help people out with the tight Les Baers. It works extremely well on tight fitted 1911's and preserves the barrel to bushing fit. I think you'll see it's a much better way to do it on your tight DW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJhPari7dpc

That is the way I've always done it, once I moved up from Colts...I didn't realize folks still put the plug in from the front anymore

myk 01-27-2013 1:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany (Post 10334021)
That is the way I've always done it, once I moved up from Colts...I didn't realize folks still put the plug in from the front anymore

I didn't even know about the bushing wrench...:confused:

negolien 01-27-2013 6:48 AM

meh
 
Yeah I do my Kimber differantly than that.

1st thing I do is make sure the magazines dropped and the chambers empty :p

2nd is push down on the spring plug and turn the bushing using the Magazine tab or the widgit. Then I pull the spring and spring plug out.

3rd is to move the slide to the disasembly notch and pull that part out.

4th pull the slide off with the barrel and recoil guide rod still inside, pull the guide rod out and then the barrel.

5th I then turn the bushing clounter clockwise half a turn and take the bushing off.

6th Slide the barrel out the front of the slide.


To assemble:

I put on the bushing, then I put the barrel in the slide then the guide rod.
Put the top of the slide on the weapon lining up the hole to put in the slide stop. Then I put the plug on the spring and push down with the widgit or a magazinew tab till it catches the bushing enough to hold it. I then push the spring and spring plug down far enough to turn the bushing.

redcliff 01-27-2013 8:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by negolien (Post 10335150)
Yeah I do my Kimber differantly than that.

1st thing I do is make sure the magazines dropped and the chambers empty :p

2nd is push down on the spring plug and turn the bushing using the Magazine tab or the widgit. Then I pull the spring and spring plug out.

3rd is to move the slide to the disasembly notch and pull that part out.

4th pull the slide off with the barrel and recoil guide rod still inside, pull the guide rod out and then the barrel.

5th I then turn the bushing clounter clockwise half a turn and take the bushing off.

6th Slide the barrel out the front of the slide.


To assemble:

I put on the bushing, then I put the barrel in the slide then the guide rod.
Put the top of the slide on the weapon lining up the hole to put in the slide stop. Then I put the plug on the spring and push down with the widgit or a magazinew tab till it catches the bushing enough to hold it. I then push the spring and spring plug down far enough to turn the bushing.

You're using the g.i. type take down method. It doesn't work well with really tight fit barrel bushings nor is it desireable due to wiping the bushing against the barrel at its fitted point. The inside of the barrel bushing is parallel to the barrel. The outside of the bushing is parallel to the slide. The angle are not the same.

Once a person gets used to the method in the video theres no reason to go back to the g.i. way.

negolien 01-27-2013 9:41 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ysoI5Kw5Cg Is how I do it. Though it seems some 1911's have bull barrels and require the use of a take down tool

From the kimber manual

DISASSEMBLY (FIELD STRIPPING)
This product should be cleaned after every use and
when exposed to dirt, sand, etc. When not in use,
clean at least twice per year.
1. With the pistol unloaded, the magazine
removed and the hammer down, depress the
recoil spring plug, with the supplied wrench,
and turn the barrel bushing clockwise,
towards the right side of the pistol until the
recoil spring plug and recoil spring are free. Be
careful, the recoil spring and plug are under
tension and can fly out with substantial force.
2. Ease out recoil spring and plug. If recoil
spring does not come out easily, remove plug
and leave the spring for step 6. The open end
of the recoil spring goes into the plug.
3. Cock the hammer and push the slide rearward
until the semi-circular tab on the back of the
slide stop aligns with the semi-circular
disassembly notch in the bottom of the slide.
4. Push inward on the end of the slide stop shaft
on the right side of the pistol and remove the
slide stop from the left side.
5. Slide the slide assembly forward off the frame.
6. Remove the recoil spring through the opening
at the front of the slide.
7. Turn the barrel bushing counterclockwise until
the lug aligns with the opening andremove the
bushing from the front of the slide.
8. Remove the full length recoil spring guide
from the bottom of the slide by rotating it
away from the barrel and withdrawing it
towards the rear of the slide. The barrel link
can get in the way of removal. To stop this,
hold the slide inverted and rotate the link to
its full forward position. The guide rod can
now be lifted over the link.
Tip the barrel link forward to clear the recoil
spring tunnel. Then pull the barrel forward
clear of the slide.
The pistol is now disassembled for cleaning
purposes (field stripped).

Phil3 01-27-2013 9:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redcliff (Post 10336021)
You're using the g.i. type take down method. It doesn't work well with really tight fit barrel bushings nor is it desireable due to wiping the bushing against the barrel at its fitted point. The inside of the barrel bushing is parallel to the barrel. The outside of the bushing is parallel to the slide. The angle are not the same.

Once a person gets used to the method in the video theres no reason to go back to the g.i. way.

I was excited to use the method in the video, but it will not work on the Dan Wesson PointMan 7 (PM7). In the video, the recoil spring plug is withdrawn from inside the slide. On the PM7, the plug rests on a shoulder in the slide...it must be withdrawn from the front. No biggie I thought, I will still use the video but install the plug from the front and hold it in place with the barrel bushing. And then I will install the spring/guide rod assembly from the inside of the slide as shown in the video, this assembly sliding into the recoil plug already installed. Not possible.

The recoil spring/guide rod are long enough that the angle formed by trying to insert as shown in the video causes the assembly to hit the front part of the slide and the barrel link area. The problem is rod itself. It is MUCH longer than the rod shown in the video. It is 3.775" long, tip to tip, or the length of about 19 - 20 recoil spring coils. In the video, their short guide rod covers about 7 coils. I can't even fit it in the slide using the method in the video, without the spring. The guide rod goes in fine, IF the recoil spring plug is not there.

No wonder the instructions from Dan Wesson are to use the wrench to remove parts from the outside. This is so much of a fight, it is damn near a deal killer for me. It should not be anywhere near this hard to take apart a gun and clean.

Phil

Press Check 01-27-2013 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil3 (Post 10333741)
Thanks, I will try the video method. This looks a lot less troublesome!

I am not so happy that turning the barrel bushing is leaving a a light circular scratch or wear mark on the frame under where the half-moon part of the bushing is when it turned clockwise (looking at muzzle). Easy to see on the stainless bead blasted finish. I find no burrs on the bushing, but might be something on lug recess inside slide that I can not see, forcing a tight fit against against the face of the frame. Or maybe this kind of wear is normal when servicing the gun. ???

Phil

If the bushing is that difficult to turn, the radial tip of bushing lug might need to be relieved a bit. You can have a Gunsmith do it, or if you have a hard arkansas or ultra-fine file available, you could do it, one stroke at a time. If you believe the bushing is held to tightly to the slide, you can also relieve the lug area that faces the inner face of the bushing with a file, one stroke at a time.

Or, you could simply remove the barrel, reinstall the bushing, and create artificial wear by taking the bushing wrench and simply turning the bushing from left to right until the tension is slightly relieved.

negolien 01-27-2013 10:12 AM

That method didn't work on my Custom II either. I tried it but had to put the slide stop back in and do it the normal way.

I found this on a web search but this is for the bull barrel. It's about halfway down the page.
As a side note I found the barrel wrench to be a PoS lol. I find it much easier to use the tab on a Magazine.
http://www.gun-forums.com/printthread.php?t=2088

new1911 01-27-2013 10:16 AM

installed EGW bushing/plug on my 1911 and ran into the same problem. It was tight! removing the slide and working the bushing for a few mins solved the problem. i just twisted it left/right until it loosen up to the point i no longer needed the bushing tool to twist it.

redcliff 01-27-2013 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil3 (Post 10336620)
I was excited to use the method in the video, but it will not work on the Dan Wesson PointMan 7 (PM7). In the video, the recoil spring plug is withdrawn from inside the slide. On the PM7, the plug rests on a shoulder in the slide...it must be withdrawn from the front. No biggie I thought, I will still use the video but install the plug from the front and hold it in place with the barrel bushing. And then I will install the spring/guide rod assembly from the inside of the slide as shown in the video, this assembly sliding into the recoil plug already installed. Not possible.

The recoil spring/guide rod are long enough that the angle formed by trying to insert as shown in the video causes the assembly to hit the front part of the slide and the barrel link area. The problem is rod itself. It is MUCH longer than the rod shown in the video. It is 3.775" long, tip to tip, or the length of about 19 - 20 recoil spring coils. In the video, their short guide rod covers about 7 coils. I can't even fit it in the slide using the method in the video, without the spring. The guide rod goes in fine, IF the recoil spring plug is not there.

No wonder the instructions from Dan Wesson are to use the wrench to remove parts from the outside. This is so much of a fight, it is damn near a deal killer for me. It should not be anywhere near this hard to take apart a gun and clean.

Phil

Hmm I don't have a PM7 to compare. I've seen posts where people have replaced their PM7's FLGR with the standard g.i. type setup which shouldnt work if your slide has some type of special shoulder (I would love to see a photo of that). Often on a FLGR you have a spring plug that is called a "reverse plug" and it is only removeable from the rear due to a shoulder on the reverse plug.

The good news is that you can get rid of that FLGR without consequence. (DW does not use a FLGR on their Valor model or CBOB's) You could either obtain replacement parts from DW or from a supplier like Ed Brown or Wilson.

I only use FLGR's on bull barrel 1911's that don't allow the use of a standard bushing.

Edit: did some more research. Some people claim that the issue with disassembly on the Pm7 is caused by the slide being slightly retracted while you try to depress the guide rod plug and turn the bushing. Using the safety to limit slide travel may still allow enough retraction to cause the guide rod to protrude too far forward. Having the slide removed by popping the slide stop out first should prevent that from happening or just ensure the slide is fully forward while trying to disassemble. Some people shorten their stock PM7 guide rod slightly and find it much easier to disassemble.

9mmepiphany 01-27-2013 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redcliff (Post 10336021)
The inside of the barrel bushing is parallel to the barrel. The outside of the bushing is parallel to the slide. The angle are not the same.

This bears repeating, as I've found that many folks just aren't aware of this.

This is why you don't really cut the barrel flush with the face of the bushing...the barrel is pointed at a downward angle

Phil3 01-27-2013 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redcliff (Post 10337086)
Hmm I don't have a PM7 to compare. I've seen posts where people have replaced their PM7's FLGR with the standard g.i. type setup which shouldnt work if your slide has some type of special shoulder (I would love to see a photo of that). Often on a FLGR you have a spring plug that is called a "reverse plug" and it is only removeable from the rear due to a shoulder on the reverse plug.

The good news is that you can get rid of that FLGR without consequence. (DW does not use a FLGR on their Valor model or CBOB's) You could either obtain replacement parts from DW or from a supplier like Ed Brown or Wilson.

I only use FLGR's on bull barrel 1911's that don't allow the use of a standard bushing.

Edit: did some more research. Some people claim that the issue with disassembly on the Pm7 is caused by the slide being slightly retracted while you try to depress the guide rod plug and turn the bushing. Using the safety to limit slide travel may still allow enough retraction to cause the guide rod to protrude too far forward. Having the slide removed by popping the slide stop out first should prevent that from happening or just ensure the slide is fully forward while trying to disassemble. Some people shorten their stock PM7 guide rod slightly and find it much easier to disassemble.

Thank you. I will do as you suggest. My biggest problem is that when depressing the spring and plug, that assembly will not go all the way down. It stops about 1/8" short of where it needs to be. I can not see what is the problem. Some wiggling sometimes will allow the spring/plug to go in further, but often, it just won't. The spring slides in easily enough as the does plug. But, under tension, it gets hung up every time, with me only able to dislodge it maybe 10% of the time. Kind of hard to examine closely with a spring-bomb held under my fingers.

UPDATE: The reason the plug was stopping 1/8" short was because I had the spring on backwards (loose fitting end over guide rod). I put the tight fitting end over the guide rod and and the plug depresses freely. Stupid on my part not making note of the fit when I took it apart. Still hard to hold down and apply a wrench, but did manage to do it. I will be happy when there is some wear and I can turn the barrel bushing by hand.

Phil

negolien 01-27-2013 5:09 PM

I' am a little confused by the above. You stated that you had not disassemled the weapon before. Which means DW put the spring in backwards. I find that hard to believe but I guess anything is possible..The manuals for DW and LG do say to wait and put a couple of hundred rounds down range before stripping it to allow some wear.

Like I said earlier. I tried the non-gi way for my Custom II and although I could get the slide off without to much trouble. I wasn't able to get the internals of the upper to come out once the slide was off the frame.

9mmepiphany 01-27-2013 7:07 PM

Quote:

I wasn't able to get the internals of the upper to come out once the slide was off the frame.
You just have to jam a screw driver under the spring guide and lever it up of...it should shoot across the room and impale itself into your drywall :reddevil:

SJgunguy24 01-27-2013 7:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redcliff (Post 10331760)
This is the method I've used for many years. Alchemy Custom happened to do a very good video of the same method to help people out with the tight Les Baers. It works extremely well on tight fitted 1911's and preserves the barrel to bushing fit. I think you'll see it's a much better way to do it on your tight DW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJhPari7dpc


"DON'T PUT IT IN LIKE THIS". Yeah no sh#t, especially when you have Redcliff hovering 2 feet from you saying, "No idiot scratches Mike, no idiot scratches Mike".
That video is how I take most of them apart.

redcliff 01-28-2013 7:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 (Post 10341881)
"DON'T PUT IT IN LIKE THIS". Yeah no sh#t, especially when you have Redcliff hovering 2 feet from you saying, "No idiot scratches Mike, no idiot scratches Mike".
That video is how I take most of them apart.

LOL Mike, I was glad I didn't have to whack you over your head with some of your tools :) You did a great job installing that custom long-range metallic silhouette competition barrel on my Wiley Clapp

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/l...rearms/wc2.jpg

negolien 01-28-2013 8:19 AM

Meh
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany (Post 10341654)
You just have to jam a screw driver under the spring guide and lever it up of...it should shoot across the room and impale itself into your drywall :reddevil:

Ok so let me see if I have this straight. The recomended way to break it down is not good for the weapon but jamming a screwdriver under the assembly and prying it out so it shoots across the room is?:facepalm: Think I will just contuinue to do it the GI way. If it's worked for over 100 years it must be ok for my non Pro-Competition Kimber.

redcliff 01-28-2013 8:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany (Post 10341654)
You just have to jam a screw driver under the spring guide and lever it up of...it should shoot across the room and impale itself into your drywall :reddevil:

Quote:

Originally Posted by negolien (Post 10345453)
Ok so let me see if I have this straight. The recomended way to break it down is not good for the weapon but jamming a screwdriver under the assembly and prying it out so it shoots across the room is?:facepalm: Think I will just contuinue to do it the GI way. If it's worked for over 100 years it must be ok for my non Pro-Competition Kimber.

9mmepiphany was being facetious, so no, you don't have it straight. Thats why he used the devil emoticon :) He's a highly respected professional firearms instructor, he doesn't pry on handgun parts with screwdrivers.

Use whatever method you want on your Kimber. But for tight fitted 1911's with standard recoil systems the video shows the best way. I'm well past the age where I try to make horses drink after leading them to water. If they prefer a different stream thats fine.

Phil3 01-28-2013 9:28 AM

[QUOTE=negolien;10340434]I' am a little confused by the above. You stated that you had not disassemled the weapon before. Which means DW put the spring in backwards. I find that hard to believe but I guess anything is possible..The manuals for DW and LG do say to wait and put a couple of hundred rounds down range before stripping it to allow some wear.QUOTE]

I said, "Stupid on my part not making note of the fit when I took it apart...", meaning DW has it on right, but I did not make note of that when taking it apart and put it back together with the spring reversed.

My DW manual specifically says to clean and lubricate under differents sets of circumstances, the first being, "Before firing your DAN WESSON FIREARMS for the first time". That is on page 10 of my manual. I don't find anything about a couple of hundred rounds to allow some wear.

Phil

9mmepiphany 01-28-2013 9:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redcliff (Post 10345566)
9mmepiphany was being facetious, so no, you don't have it straight. Thats why he used the devil emoticon :) He's a highly respected professional firearms instructor, he doesn't pry on handgun parts with screwdrivers.

Thank you, I'm embarrassed by the praise. :o Yes, I was being facetious

I thought the emoticon made it clear...or at least the impaling in the wall comment...maybe I should have used a funnier one...like :devil: or :devil2:

I too have long ago stopped trying to make folks drink when they are resistant...all we can do is offer the path

RippSpeed 01-28-2013 6:12 PM

get yourself a dawson tooless guide rod ...
http://youtu.be/FyKIm3Ol4lU

I run this in my competition guns

CrippledPidgeon 01-29-2013 5:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by negolien (Post 10345453)
Ok so let me see if I have this straight. The recomended way to break it down is not good for the weapon but jamming a screwdriver under the assembly and prying it out so it shoots across the room is?:facepalm: Think I will just contuinue to do it the GI way. If it's worked for over 100 years it must be ok for my non Pro-Competition Kimber.

Your issue is in the full length guide rod. It may not have enough clearance around the plug to allow the rod to rotate enough to clear the bottom barrel lugs. In this case, yes, you'll have to use the GI method of depressing the plug and rotating the bushing to pull the plug out the front.

Phil3 01-29-2013 6:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrippledPidgeon (Post 10362305)
Your issue is in the full length guide rod. It may not have enough clearance around the plug to allow the rod to rotate enough to clear the bottom barrel lugs. In this case, yes, you'll have to use the GI method of depressing the plug and rotating the bushing to pull the plug out the front.

That explains exactly what it happening. I guess I will have to get much more practiced at assembling it. The spring is 18.5 lbs. I think, so not depressing easily with just a thumb! Plus the plug edge really cuts into your thumb, even leaving a severe imprint on my thumb through leather gloves.

Phil


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