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-   -   Saiga 12 10rnd drum illegal? (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=688490)

slunk0844 01-25-2013 10:52 PM

Saiga 12 10rnd drum illegal?
 
Was told by a police officer that my saiga 12 10round drum was illegal, because it was a revolving type mag on a shotgun.

Something like that.

Anyone have anything on this?

SemperFi1775 01-25-2013 11:00 PM

Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder is an AW under CA law.

Quiet 01-25-2013 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFi1775 (Post 10323809)
Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder is an AW under CA law.

And a drum magazine is not a revolving cylinder.

slunk0844 01-25-2013 11:02 PM

So with drum attached is completely an assault weapon.

Its a shame so many places sell 10 rnd drums with no warning to their customers.

unusedusername 01-25-2013 11:05 PM

A drum magazine is not a revolving cylinder.

My opinion is that 10-round drums are good to go, as long as the shotgun is otherwise legal.

Getting a promag drum that actually works is another story...

EBR Works 01-25-2013 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slunk0844 (Post 10323836)
So with drum attached is completely an assault weapon.

Its a shame so many places sell 10 rnd drums with no warning to their customers.

Apparently you are not listening. Quiet's statement that a drum mag is not a revolving cylinder is accurate. They are legal.

slunk0844 01-25-2013 11:09 PM

Yes i see now I posted at the same time Quiet posted.

gun toting monkeyboy 01-26-2013 12:25 AM

The revolving cylinder thing was a referrence to the old Streetsweeper. That is the only shotgun that had one. They needed a way to ban it.

-Mb

SemperFi1775 01-26-2013 8:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slunk0844 (Post 10323882)
Yes i see now I posted at the same time Quiet posted.

my guess is you didn't have this "drum" mag attached to your saiga when the cop spoke to you?

now that you have been told by calguns experts that it's legal, are you planning to prove the cop is wrong? ;-)

there were old rumors ATF was going to re-classify saiga12 as destructive devices, same as old streetsweepers, since there are more than 10 rounds drum mags available.

on the local front, if yee gets his ways, saiga12 will be defined as aw...

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...drum-magazine/

redcliff 01-26-2013 9:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFi1775 (Post 10323809)
Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder is an AW under CA law.

Drum magazines are NOT revolving cylinders. Cylinders contain firing chambers. So yes, the experts on Calguns are right. Thanks for playing though.

slunk0844 01-26-2013 9:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by slunk0844
Yes i see now I posted at the same time Quiet posted.

"my guess is you didn't have this "drum" mag attached to your saiga when the cop spoke to you?

now that you have been told by calguns experts that it's legal, are you planning to prove the cop is wrong? ;-)

there were old rumors ATF was going to re-classify saiga12 as destructive devices, same as old streetsweepers, since there are more than 10 rounds drum mags available.

on the local front, if yee gets his ways, saiga12 will be defined as aw..."

No i did have the drum on my saiga 12 but the police officer was cool and told me to just take it off and put it away in my car. I wasnt going to argue with him and of course I was being completely respectful.

tuolumnejim 01-26-2013 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slunk0844 (Post 10326585)
Quote:
Originally Posted by slunk0844


No i did have the drum on my saiga 12 but the police officer was cool and told me to just take it off and put it away in my car. I wasnt going to argue with him and of course I was being completely respectful.

So where was this at?

EnglandStGarage 01-26-2013 12:02 PM

Not educated on this stuff at all but wouldnt the rossi circuit judge be considered a .410 shotgun with a revolving cylinder?

SemperFi1775 01-26-2013 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redcliff (Post 10326365)
Drum magazines are NOT revolving cylinders. Cylinders contain firing chambers. So yes, the experts on Calguns are right. Thanks for playing though.

i'd love to see the calguns experts practice what the preach... you know, words are cheap....

paratroop 01-26-2013 2:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFi1775 (Post 10328193)
i'd love to see the calguns experts practice what the preach... you know, words are cheap....

words may be cheap there chief, but yours are still wrong. A drum magazine is not a revolving cylinder. take a look at the old sidewinder drum mags, also legal bud.

aklover_91 01-26-2013 2:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFi1775 (Post 10328193)
i'd love to see the calguns experts practice what the preach... you know, words are cheap....

A vendor (one of the good ones) chimes in, and you're asking why no one is putting their money where their mouth is?

CSACANNONEER 01-26-2013 2:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFi1775 (Post 10328193)
i'd love to see the calguns experts practice what the preach... you know, words are cheap....

LMFAO!!!!!!

EBR Works has been on the cutting edge of the OLL movement since it began. While he wasn't a FFL or even in the firearms industry, he has been practicing CA legal firearms ownership and use for a long time. He's been told that some of his firearms are not legal or welcome at certain ranges.

Now, since you've called out any "calguns expert" here, while I do not consider myself an "expert", I'll offer to meet you at a public or private range and practice anything I've ever preached here. Hell, I'll even use a Saiga 12 with a mag lock and 20 round drum (there is no limit on the number of rounds a fixed mag can hold in a shotgun) if you can legally provide me with them. Unfortunately, I don't own a S12 or any mags for it. Otherwise, I wouldn't need you to furnish them to me. So, find something I've preached, post it here. shoot me a PM to make sure I see it and, wait for me to let you know what days I can meet up with you. I shoot a ranges between Coalinga and Angeles on occassion. I'm willing to drive a couple hundred miles to meet up with you if you're willing to do the same. Or, are you just another troll??? Come on, put your money and time where your big mouth is. I dare you!!!!

Quiet 01-26-2013 2:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglandStGarage (Post 10327904)
Not educated on this stuff at all but wouldnt the rossi circuit judge be considered a .410 shotgun with a revolving cylinder?

The Rossi Circuit Judge meets CA's definition of a rifle [PC 17090] and does not meet CA's definition of a shotgun [PC 17190].

It is CA legal for a rifle to have a revolving cylinder, because no CA laws restricts/prohibits a rifle with a revolving cylinder.

However, if the Rossi Circuit Judge has a smoothbore barrel, then it would not be CA legal because it would then meet CA's definition of a shotgun [PC 17190] and CA's assault weapons laws prohibits shotguns with revolving cylinders [PC 30515(a)(8)].



Penal Code 17090
As used in Sections 16530, 16640, 16650, 16660, 16870, and 17170, Sections 17720 to 17730, inclusive, Section 17740, subdivision (f) of Section 27555, Article 2 (commencing with Section 30300) of Chapter 1 of Division 10 of Title 4, and Article 1 (commencing with Section 33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4, "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Penal Code 17190
As used in Sections 16530, 16640, 16870, and 17180, Sections 17720 to 17730, inclusive, Section 17740, subdivision (f) of Section 27555, Section 30215, and Article 1 (commencing with Section 33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4, "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.

Penal Code 30515
(a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, "assault weapon" also means any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer's hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

SFgiants105 01-26-2013 3:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER (Post 10329137)
...
(there is no limit on the number of rounds a fixed mag can hold in a shotgun)
...

Wait, this is news to me.

Are you saying I can legally have one of these on my shotty!?

https://www.xrailbyrci.com/mm5/merch...Code=xrail_fnh

CSACANNONEER 01-26-2013 4:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFgiants105 (Post 10329392)
Wait, this is news to me.

Are you saying I can legally have one of these on my shotty!?

https://www.xrailbyrci.com/mm5/merch...Code=xrail_fnh

I don't know anything about your video game or air soft stuff. But, if you can legally aquire a magazine and fix it to a shotgun, you can use it without it being an AW. Have you ever read CA's AW laws? If not, do it. You'll find that there is no mention of a capacity limit when it comes to fixed magazines on shotguns.

tuolumnejim 01-26-2013 4:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFgiants105 (Post 10329392)
Wait, this is news to me.

Are you saying I can legally have one of these on my shotty!?

https://www.xrailbyrci.com/mm5/merch...Code=xrail_fnh

Saying "shotty" does not elevate you in many eyes. :facepalm:

aklover_91 01-26-2013 4:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER (Post 10329849)
I don't know anything about your video game or air soft stuff. But, if you can legally aquire a magazine and fix it to a shotgun, you can use it without it being an AW. Have you ever read CA's AW laws? If not, do it. You'll find that there is no mention of a capacity limit when it comes to fixed magazines on shotguns.

There is a capacity limit on ammunition feeding devices that aren't exempted, though.

I don't deny that it could be legal to put that on a shotgun, I think it might be illegal to import. It's functionally similar to how the KSG works, did we ever get a final word on that?

IANAL, of course.

Nyanman 01-26-2013 5:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklover_91 (Post 10330281)
There is a capacity limit on ammunition feeding devices that aren't exempted, though.

I don't deny that it could be legal to put that on a shotgun, I think it might be illegal to import. It's functionally similar to how the KSG works, did we ever get a final word on that?

IANAL, of course.

That thing makes me think of the 1216 shotgun and its unique magazine, and my understanding is that the 1216 is required to have a tool locked magazine in California.

Quiet 01-26-2013 7:43 PM

CA's assault weapons laws does not restrict the amount of rounds that can be in a fixed magazine of a shotgun.

CA's large capacity magazine laws restricts the manufacturing/importing/selling/giving of shotgun magazines that hold more than 10 rounds.
Exemption to this are fixed tubular magazines on lever-action shotguns.

So...
If you can legally acquire a large capacity Saiga-12 magazine, you can legally use it in a maglock'd Saiga-12.

redcliff 01-26-2013 8:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFi1775 (Post 10328193)
i'd love to see the calguns experts practice what the preach... you know, words are cheap....

By your logic if I put a drum magazine into a Luger pistol it becomes a revolver:smilielol5:

SoCalXD 01-26-2013 8:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFi1775 (Post 10328193)
i'd love to see the calguns experts practice what the preach... you know, words are cheap....

Newbie says what? :facepalm:

ChrisBrooklyn 01-27-2013 1:47 PM

does it immediately become a crime when you take the hi cap drum, or one of those 15 round straight mags off to then reload it? and does the act of assembling i hi cap kit count as "manufacture"? i would argue its just assembly, no?.. sorry for the newb questions ha

paratroop 01-28-2013 9:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisBrooklyn (Post 10338164)
does it immediately become a crime when you take the hi cap drum, or one of those 15 round straight mags off to then reload it? and does the act of assembling i hi cap kit count as "manufacture"? i would argue its just assembly, no?.. sorry for the newb questions ha

What? I assume you are confused with the term "fixed magazine". Check out the AW flowcharts. There are ways to legally have high cap. mags, but getting a rebuild kit just to assemble it is a felony. rebuild kits are to repair/rebuild lawfully owned hi caps, or to make 10 rounders with the look of a high cap, or to keep, disassembled(while in ca.) for out of state use. Calguns is a valuable resource for all of this info, and you will find most of your questions are already answered somewhere on here. look around.

ChrisBrooklyn 01-29-2013 9:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paratroop (Post 10352665)
What? I assume you are confused with the term "fixed magazine".

NO, i am well aware of what a fixed magazine is, the question was, when you use your tool to UNFIX it, now you are holding in your hand a hi cap shotgun magazine.. now is this illegal to posses? or only illegal to import, manufacture etc?

Harrison_Bergeron 01-29-2013 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisBrooklyn (Post 10356260)
NO, i am well aware of what a fixed magazine is, the question was, when you use your tool to UNFIX it, now you are holding in your hand a hi cap shotgun magazine.. now is this illegal to posses? or only illegal to import, manufacture etc?

You need to read more and post less, nothing about a fixed magazine exempts it from high cap manufacturing or importation law.

kaligaran 01-29-2013 11:11 AM

Here's the shotgun AW flowchart:
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf

ChrisBrooklyn 01-29-2013 2:24 PM

I read just fine. It just seems that all of You are posting conflicting information. My question is simple. Does the law cocer possession? Or import manufacture etc? Like you can posses moonshine fr personal use. But manufacture for sale is against the law. If you don't know. Just say so

jben 01-29-2013 2:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisBrooklyn (Post 10356260)
NO, i am well aware of what a fixed magazine is, the question was, when you use your tool to UNFIX it, now you are holding in your hand a hi cap shotgun magazine.. now is this illegal to posses? or only illegal to import, manufacture etc?

Possession of the magazine is not illegal.

However, if you obtained it by assembling (read manufacturing) a parts kit then you have committed the crime of manufacturing a hi-cap mag.

Harrison_Bergeron 01-29-2013 3:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisBrooklyn (Post 10359564)
I read just fine. It just seems that all of You are posting conflicting information. My question is simple. Does the law cocer possession? Or import manufacture etc? Like you can posses moonshine fr personal use. But manufacture for sale is against the law. If you don't know. Just say so

Then post the law and highlight the parts that confuse you.

You are currently confused because you do not seem to have ever read the laws, yet are trying to hold your own in a conversation about the intricacies of the laws.

Read the laws, like the rest of us, then come back and ask any questions that you may have.

djleisure 01-29-2013 3:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jben (Post 10359797)
Possession of the magazine is not illegal.

However, if you obtained it by assembling (read manufacturing) a parts kit then you have committed the crime of manufacturing a hi-cap mag.

This is correct and to add a little more flavor to the conversation, the statute of limitations on committing this crime is three years. Not condoning anything illegal, or wink winking here - just educating the public. Here's a good link to read: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/La...e_restrictions

Oh and I use 10-round drums in my S-12 regularly and openly in CA - no worries here, because I know the law.

ChrisBrooklyn 01-29-2013 5:55 PM

thanks DJ and Jben.. Harrison, i have read the laws, but as we all know they are convoluted and full of loopholes legal jargon, Im also not a cali native so i ask these questions on here of the people with more real world experience than me, not to mention the LEO's that read and post here often..i made no claims as to what is legal or not, i just asked.. If asking questions is "trying to hold my own" then i guess ya got me there

BigPimping 01-29-2013 6:01 PM

I would get rid of that asap........that is called a Streetsweeper in many places.

jpigeon 01-29-2013 6:59 PM

LEGAL..

Calm Down 01-29-2013 8:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFi1775 (Post 10328193)
i'd love to see the calguns experts practice what the preach... you know, words are cheap....

OK;I'll bite. I'm legit.

http://s1.postimage.org/la2dcsrlb/IMG_1473_1.jpg

3RDGEARGRNDRR 01-29-2013 8:08 PM

yes they are illegal, you should sell it to me asap, pm me


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