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-   -   Off Roster & Dealer Inventory (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=667836)

dkirk 12-31-2012 3:24 PM

Off Roster & Dealer Inventory
 
My questions are-

Would I as an FFL in California be able to have off roster pistols/revolvers sold to me from a wholesaler/distributor/auction?

If those pistols/revolvers stay in my dealer inventory and I never DROS them into my personal stash can I keep and use them?

If one day I let my business go... can I keep my non-DROSED dealer inventory or do I have to get rid of it or DROS it into my name?

franklinarmory 01-01-2013 9:21 AM

You would just dros it in to your name.

kemasa 01-01-2013 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkirk (Post 10070325)
My questions are-

Would I as an FFL in California be able to have off roster pistols/revolvers sold to me from a wholesaler/distributor/auction?

Yes, you can buy inventory for sale to LEO or for sale out of state. Some places won't sell anything not on the list, but that is just their rules, not the law.

Quote:

If those pistols/revolvers stay in my dealer inventory and I never DROS them into my personal stash can I keep and use them?
Well, it depends on what you mean. You can use them for various purposes, but when you are inspected, the firearms would need to be available to show that you still have them.

Quote:

If one day I let my business go... can I keep my non-DROSED dealer inventory or do I have to get rid of it or DROS it into my name?
I don't believe so. There is no CA exemption for the DROS when you close your business so the firearms would have to be on the list and you would have to DROS them to you.

dkirk 01-02-2013 8:09 AM

Thanks for the response. If I am able to get off roster guns, leave them in inventory and closed my business, how would Cal DOJ even know about them? I would liken it to someone that moved to California and had an off roster gun. What are your thought on that?

kemasa 01-02-2013 8:49 AM

You have to do something with the inventory. If you keep the firearms you would be violating the law. When you turn in your records to the BATF, they would notice if the firearms were not transferred and if you claimed to have transferred them and no DROS was submitted, you could have some serious problems. The BATF and the CA DOJ do communicate. When I was last inspected from the BATF the IOI had a list of all the DROS submitted.

While you might get away with it, it is not legal and if you get caught, consider what the end result will be.

dkirk 01-03-2013 6:51 AM

Okay, good advise. One last question. If I have some off roster pistols for LEOs that fell through, non-returnable, and I close my business what would I do with them? DROS only asks for buyer info, not firearm info, so I could DROS them to myself correct? Is there written law/instructions that covers this scenario?

Thanks

tenpercentfirearms 01-03-2013 7:13 AM

There is no work around. You can keep non-rostered handguns in your shop inventory as long as you are in business. As soon as you are out of business, then you cannot legally just keep the firearms. Handguns would have to be DROSed to you. You are not exempt from the roster of approved handguns for sale for DROS.

If you just kept them, all handgun sales since 1991 must be registered in the State of California. As soon as you shoot someone or get pulled over and they find PC to run your serial number and find it is not in your name, you are potentially busted.

You would be much wiser to use the single shot exempt method to lawfully take personal possession or if you have an out of state grandchild, child, parent, grandparent have them intrafamilial transfer to you.

There is no getting around it. That is the way it is.

Now there are plenty of ways as a dealer you can illegally do this. However, the key world is illegally. You might as well go out of state and buy one face to face, there would be less start up costs and less likely you would be caught in an audit. You would still be a criminal and you would still have to worry about a cop running your serial number and discovering it is not properly registered.

There are no shortcuts. It is what it is. So just don't do anything except SSE, intrafamilial from out of state after going through and FFL, or become an FFL and keep them as long as you have an FFL.

2nab 01-03-2013 7:26 AM

Dkirk. what area are you in? let me propose a third option that ive seen work in other places. make friendly with some local LEOs. if you take trade ins or find good deals on non-roster handguns then pass some deals on to the LEOs and one of them will return the favor. let them know what you are looking for and you might be surprised. Buying off roster as PPT from LEO would seem like a better goal than trying to somehow beat the system, risk or forfeit your FFL. What area are you in and what are you looking for.

kemasa 01-03-2013 8:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2nab (Post 10096048)
Dkirk. what area are you in? let me propose a third option that ive seen work in other places. make friendly with some local LEOs. if you take trade ins or find good deals on non-roster handguns then pass some deals on to the LEOs and one of them will return the favor. let them know what you are looking for and you might be surprised. Buying off roster as PPT from LEO would seem like a better goal than trying to somehow beat the system, risk or forfeit your FFL. What area are you in and what are you looking for.

What you are suggesting could be considered a straw purchase. There are already some LEOs who are being charged. While I don't consider transfers that all go through a FFL to be a straw purchase, the BATF does not agree with my view. Also, departments don't like such things either.

dkirk 01-03-2013 10:16 AM

Thank you to everybody for advice. I want to keep things legal, following the laws, but using them to my advantage as well. The SSE and LEO options sound good as long as the LEO legally wants to sell off his or her gun because they do not want it anymore. As for the SSE, can a off roster pistol be sent to me as a new type 07 dealer and I drop in parts to block the magazine or change the barrel? Or does this have to be done out of State and then shipped in?

2nab 01-03-2013 10:20 AM

Not at all a straw purchase. If im selling an XDM that ive had for three years and i decide to sell it to my LGS owner because we are friends and he just gave me a good deal on a used Rem 870. please tell me what ive violated. perhaps you misunderstood me but that is not even remotely a straw buy. in fact i actually do have a few off roster pistols id like to sell. id be happy to sell them PPT at a discount to a friend. especially one that has offered me good deals in the past. if im wrong for that please let me know so i dont do it again.

kemasa 01-03-2013 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2nab (Post 10097568)
Not at all a straw purchase. If im selling an XDM that ive had for three years and i decide to sell it to my LGS owner because we are friends and he just gave me a good deal on a used Rem 870.

That is correct, if you sell a firearm which have had, then it is nothing, but if instead you are a LEO and buy a firearm for someone else, in order to bypass the roster, and sell it right after you get it, then it could be considered a straw purchase.

Here is an example, but please realize that I don't agree with the view, but I am not the BATF:

1) You know a friend is looking for a specific firearm and you happen to find it and buy it in hopes of selling it to your friend. This is not a straw purchase.

2) You know a friend is looking for a specific firearm and you happen to find it and call your friend to see if he wants it, then you buy it. This is a straw purchase. It does not matter if you do the transfer through a FFL. You signed the 4473 saying that you were the actual buyer/transferee, which is not the case.


Quote:

please tell me what ive violated. perhaps you misunderstood me but that is not even remotely a straw buy. in fact i actually do have a few off roster pistols id like to sell. id be happy to sell them PPT at a discount to a friend. especially one that has offered me good deals in the past. if im wrong for that please let me know so i dont do it again.
Buying a firearm and later deciding that you want to sell it is not a problem, as long as you don't do it too often as you would then be an unlicensed dealer. Buying a firearm and selling it right away could be a problem. You might not get noticed, but then again you might. They might want to make an example of you or they might ignore it.

2nab 01-03-2013 11:35 AM

The easiest example of the above (unlicensed dealer) would be individuals buying 10 packs of ARLower receivers and reselling them, either assembled or stripped. pretty clear that the person reasonably wasnt planning to "own" them depending on time frimes, repetition, etc. if AW Ban doesnt happen my guess is those could be some of the first people the liberals go after.

dkirk 01-03-2013 11:58 AM

Again I ask - For an SSE, can a off roster pistol be sent to me as a type 07 dealer and I drop in parts to block the magazine and or change the barrel? Or does this have to be done out of State and then shipped in?

kemasa 01-03-2013 12:10 PM

You do not need an 07 FFL if you take an existing complete functional firearm and just replace parts, with NO milling or machining. It can be done by a CA 01 FFL.

So, yes, an off-roster handgun can be sent to you and you can change the parts (barrel & magazine) while in CA.

dkirk 01-03-2013 12:31 PM

Okay, so lets say occasionally that I order/obtain and off roster gun from out-of-State that can be converted into a SSE. It arrives and I commence modification i.e. dropping parts in to make it a SSE. I then DROS it as a SSE to myself and transfer it into my personal collection. Once it has been transferred into my collection I want to modify it to 10 rounds. Problem???

Thanks for taking your time to answer my questions.

kemasa 01-03-2013 12:54 PM

No problem.

tenpercentfirearms 01-04-2013 7:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkirk (Post 10098809)
Okay, so lets say occasionally that I order/obtain and off roster gun from out-of-State that can be converted into a SSE. It arrives and I commence modification i.e. dropping parts in to make it a SSE. I then DROS it as a SSE to myself and transfer it into my personal collection. Once it has been transferred into my collection I want to modify it to 10 rounds. Problem???

Thanks for taking your time to answer my questions.

No problem. That is why I suggested it as one of your only legal means.

Now on this cop PPT thing, no way am I recommended that to anyone after the dudes up north got charged. Yes, cops can sell their property, but you better make sure if they subpoena your bank records that nothing fishy looks like it was going on, even if it wasn't.

SSE or intrafamilial out of state transfer is the safest and legalest way. LOL. Legalest.


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