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-   -   No joy with Wolf SR223 primers (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=664265)

johnny1290 12-26-2012 8:21 PM

No joy with Wolf SR223 primers
 
I bought a ton of these to use with my Saiga .223. I tested my first batch at the range today, and got 5 duds out of 100 or so.

I'm less than thrilled with my first experience using Wolf primers. I don't recall seeing any that didn't have anvils, they were loaded flush with the bottom of the case. I'm using H335. These are the new formulation that are a thicker cup and a little hotter than the magnum. I read someplace there was a problem igniting H335 with the regular SRP or something like that.

I gave each more than one strike to see if that did anything for me, but no dice. I was using 24 grains of powder, using a lee single disc and the largest hole. I've got a dual disk setup too.

I'm not sure what could've gone wrong, really. I cleaned the primer pockets, there was a clear hole into the case.

Maybe I needed a little bit bigger charge to ensure contact with the primer? I stored the rounds nose down, maybe that was the problem?

I guess there * could * be oil contamination, as I didn't tumble the cases after de-capping, but jeez, I didn't think there was *that* much oil in the neck, but maybe enough to kill a primer!

Anyway those are my things to look into. Unfortunately I already primed 900 more cases LOL so I'm stuck with whatever results I get with those. It's just practice ammo so it's not the end of the world but I'd like the stuff to go bang.

Anyway those are my thoughts of things to check or do, before blaming the Wolf primers themselves. I've never reloaded rifle before, so what do I know. I guess the length and whatnot were OK as I had no feeding or extraction problems.

Thanks for your suggestions!

johnny1290 12-26-2012 9:21 PM

Man the more I think about it, the more I think I laid on the oil inside the neck becuase I was getting them jammed, and I don't have a tumbler so I figured it would be OK.

Wrong!!!

Guess who's buying a tumbler?!? Glad I primed those 1000 cases LOL

I'm going to do an expereiment and load up a set of ones I didn't have to size and compare with sized cases to see if I get misfires. I'm pretty certain I know the answer but time will tell!

Fyathyrio 12-26-2012 9:29 PM

You say the primers were flush, they should be slightly recessed. Wolf have harder then average cups, and these are a little harder still. More "Oooomph" on the priming stroke may be all you need. For the primed but unloaded brass, try running through again and see if they will seat a bit further.

johnny1290 12-26-2012 10:34 PM

Thanks, I should have said they're slightly recessed. I primed them by hand.

Doesn't hurt to check though so I just went and tried again, they're as seated as they're going to get I reckon.

My experience is that if it's a primer seating issue it fires on the second strike, and none of these did after 2 or 3 times of trying.

I sized all the cases I have, I forgot, all of them were lubed.

Meh, that's alright I guess. I needed a tumbler anyway, cases were getting shabby on the 9mm. Maybe I could wash them or something but I'm not convinced that'll do what I want, or that I want to go through the hassle of drying them LOL

bohoki 12-26-2012 10:44 PM

did your duds fire the second time you hit them?

i used some wolf sr and had a couple pierce

gunboat 12-27-2012 2:46 AM

did you tear them down to see if they had powder?
takes a lot of oil to contaminated powder and I don't think oil in neck will migrate to primer. Not even sure oil would kill the primer.
If your primers are not seated fully the firing pin can waste energy moving the primer forward --
Any chance your case is too short? - same result as above -

Southpaw45 12-27-2012 7:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny1290 (Post 10025014)
Thanks, I should have said they're slightly recessed. I primed them by hand.

Doesn't hurt to check though so I just went and tried again, they're as seated as they're going to get I reckon.

My experience is that if it's a primer seating issue it fires on the second strike, and none of these did after 2 or 3 times of trying.

I sized all the cases I have, I forgot, all of them were lubed.

Meh, that's alright I guess. I needed a tumbler anyway, cases were getting shabby on the 9mm. Maybe I could wash them or something but I'm not convinced that'll do what I want, or that I want to go through the hassle of drying them LOL

Its not advised to try to seat primers deeper with loaded ammo. CAUTION!. I use Wolf primers all the time but never the .223 primers and have good luck with them. What does the firing pin indentation on a dud round look like? Does it look like its getting hit hard enough?

TomMcC 12-27-2012 8:34 AM

I returned over $500 worth to Wolf for this problem. They are in Anaheim. Give them a call.

johnny1290 12-27-2012 10:40 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Thanks, guys.

Here's a pic of the duds. I haven't torn them down yet. Good looking out, I didn't try to re-seat primers on loaded ammo, just primed cases.

There's powder in the rounds, they pass the shake test.

I load on a progressive but prime by hand, so I have a couple ziplocks filled with primed brass.

I saw a test, I'm convinced oil will kill a primer from the open face anyway.

I don't know that's what did this or anything, but I gotta eliminate all the variables before I blame the primers.

jonzer77 12-27-2012 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomMcC (Post 10027225)
I returned over $500 worth to Wolf for this problem. They are in Anaheim. Give them a call.

I would give Wolf a call and give them the lot numbers and let them know the problems you are having. I have used about 8k of their primers and I only had one bad one so you may have just got a bad batch.

Josh3239 12-27-2012 10:59 AM

I had the same experience, I think about a year ago. It was a couple duds in about 100 loaded .223s with H335. Most of them wouldn't go off, a few needed a 2nd or 3rd hit.

Trickpony 12-27-2012 10:59 AM

I've used about 30k of the Wolf 223 primers (silver ones) with great success. The bronze colored ones are junk in my opinion and I won't use them.

Wrangler John 12-27-2012 11:34 AM

From your picture there could be two things going on, separately or both together.

The primers are completely crushed by the firing pin strike. This will cause an occasional failure to fire, as the priming mix will be destroyed rather than ignite (yeah, I know it sounds counter intuitive). assuming that you are removing the primer crimp from military spec cases the two things are:

First thing is the primers appear to be seated too high, the best depth is for the primer to be seated .004" below the case head. As other posters have mentioned the Wolf primer is a tight fit, which makes them hard to seat. I use a lot of Wolf Large Rifle Primers and they can be really difficult to seat to full depth. Most brass does not have a square bottom primer pocket that will allow consistent full seating depth (including Lapua). So what i do is uniform all primer pockets prior to the first loading of new brass. If reloading fired factory loaded cases, I would do the uniforming before reloading. The Sinclair Uniformer Tool is designed to cut the primer pocket to allow that .004" depth below the case head. I use a power tool adapter and cordless drill to uniform the pockets. It only has to be done once.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/search/i...tool&ksubmit=y

The second cause could be too much firing pin protrusion. This can be checked with the hole depth gauge on a dial caliper alone, or with a firing pin protrusion gauge and dial caliper, or an armorer's protrusion gauge in the case of an AR-15, etc. A gunsmith is advised here. Firing pin protrusion is usually set somewhere between .035" above the bolt face to .060". I use .040" in all my bolt action rifles, but some semiautomatics may be set to the high side to ensure firing with every lot of ammo.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod26477.aspx

I would suggest that you try seating below the case head, this depth can be measured with the hole depth gauge on a dial caliber, or by laying a straight edge across the case and examining the primer, it should be obvious if it is set properly.

I tried dipping the case heads into this product:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/614...vc=subv1892537 which does ease seating somewhat. After you shoot up those Wolf primers, try Remington 7-1/2BR or another USA made primer. Although those Wolf LR primers are very accurate in my rifles.

Nothing is ever easy. Every time I think I got everything, I find I still need a new tool or gadget to make something else work.

johnny1290 12-27-2012 12:48 PM

Thank you so much Wrangler John!

As a matter of fact, I'm using a RCBS hand primer I haven't used before. I tried re-seating the primers with that and it's as deep as its gonna go. AFAIK you can't adjust the seating depth. After reading your reply, I threw them in the Pro 1000 and used the seating ram to put them in just a scootch more. I wasn't *thrilled* with the seating depth from the hand primer. It seemed adequate, but I like to feel it completely bottomed out in the pocket, and that's what they felt like after doing that on the press.

The above photo were rounds I did second or third strikes on, FWIW.

I've got 50 rounds I hand primed, and 100 rounds press seated.

I hate to do it, but I may just have to go to the range and shoot them all off for testing! :D

Its a dirty job, but someone has to do it!

Thanks for the tips on the dry lube and the pocket uniformer, etc. I just bought a Lyman primer pocket cleaner yesterday to give my hands a break from that itty-bitty lee one with no handle LOL I saw they have a uniformer there too, sigh, I guess I can pick that up too. I'll see if they have that case neck lube. Looks like a good idea. I kept getting my decaping pin popping out if I didn't lube the necks, and I hate resetting that thing.

Every time I think I don't need to buy any more stuff, there's more.

I'm going broke saving money! ;-)

M27 12-27-2012 1:42 PM

assuming that all other parts of the process are correct and the problem is with the primers

is that the primer may not sat all the way down in the pocket. if you think about it, the anvil of the primer needs to be touching the bottom of the pocket. Do you think yours are.

how have they been stored, have they been kept dry?

Bill Steele 12-27-2012 1:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M27 (Post 10029723)
assuming that all other parts of the process are correct and the problem is with the primers

is that the primer may not sat all the way down in the pocket. if you think about it, the anvil of the primer needs to be touching the bottom of the pocket. Do you think yours are.

how have they been stored, have they been kept dry?

I agree, it sounds like you are not getting them fully seated with the hand primer.

Where they sit relative to the surface of the case head isn't important (as long as they are not sitting proud). What is important is they are fully seated into the pocket, this is what pushes the anvil up against the inside of the cup.

johnny1290 12-27-2012 3:46 PM

Here's a thought. Is it possible to tear up the bottom of the cup so that it doesn't make proper contact while cleaning the pocket or swaging?

Moderation is not my strong point so I'm sure I've gouged here and there with my tools. I never thought about it possibly affecting ignition.

Sorry, I ended up at Target instead of the range today. Hopefully tomorrow I'll be able to get out there and test my newly seated primers, and tear down the misfires to see if the primer ignited.

Evidently Wolf SR primers and

H335 are not the greatest match in the world, but the ones I got were supposed to be hotter and fix ignition issues with H335. I'll see if I can get a keg of different powder and try that out as well.

Some guys were saying these primers are a bit shorter, and seating depth is crucial. Some say different powders work perfectly with them.

I simply don't know but appreciate the help!

johnny1290 12-27-2012 4:07 PM

oh fwiw I also got hang fires. really freaky.

stilly 12-27-2012 5:46 PM

ONCE and only ONCE I had to pull back the hammer about 4 times to fire ONE round. The word in the forums was that I did not have it seated properly and on the 5th or 6th pull it was finally sat properly from all the striking before and it then fired. This was on a Desert Eagle 44 mag. SO, I wonder if it was just a primer depth issue... I was using Tula primers. I HAVE a few thousand of the Wolf .223 primers but I have not used them yet.

Fyathyrio 12-27-2012 6:23 PM

What kind of bullets are you loading? If they are boat tail, you shouldn't have to lube the case necks anyway.

Gio 12-27-2012 6:33 PM

What kind of case lube are you using and are you wiping them off before putting powder in them? When I was loaing .223 I would use 2 different toolheads, one for depriming, re-sizing and the other for loading. I would re-size and deprime the cases and then tumble after I was done and before loading up the cases. I had about 30 or so cases that did not work but it was with CCI and or Wolf SRP's. Come to find out there were clumps of powder that has a bad smell to it once I tore them down. I came to the realization that I had sprayed a bit much case lube and it made it inside the case and then the powder clumped up over the primer and when it was struck it did not go bang due to the clump.

If you have a bullet puller I would suggest taking those apart and looking at the powder.

johnny1290 12-27-2012 7:45 PM

I'll be darned Gio very interesting!

I used every case lube I could find, from Lee to Lyman? to Mobil 1. I went heavy on it with a q tip or dipping the neck because I got tired of the decapping rod sticking.

I never even thought about it killing the primer, figured the worst it might clump a little powder.

I have a bullet eraser at the shop, If I get out there tomorrow I'll pull them apart and see what they have to say. Fingers crossed that seating the primers deeper helped a bit.

If not, well, I'll just have to keep loading up ammo and shooting it off till I get it right! :D thanks guys! I'll report back

gemini1 12-27-2012 8:11 PM

Hmm interesting. I use Wolf (brass colored) I think its KVB223M from Powder Valley and H335. So far all my test loads went bang on the first trigger pull.

tiller 12-27-2012 10:49 PM

Im pretty sure its the primers... I use the standard copper wolf small rifle primers with the exact same load your using... Out of 2k rounds ive had about 30 do that.... And moisture is not an issue....

Try switching to tula... Ive used over 10k+ of those and never a problem with them!

short circuit 12-28-2012 11:49 AM

I have used the TULA (same as Wolf) SR bronze colored primers by the thousands for my 223 Rem with out any issues. You do have to seat then a little harder then CCI primers to get them to fire correctly. I think they may be a little oversized, so need a firm seat in the cup. They are great for brass that the primer pocket is getting a little loose on other primers.

johnny1290 12-28-2012 2:25 PM

2 Attachment(s)
OK just a quick update...I tore apart the duds. Definitely there was powder stuck to everything, even clumpy in some places. Most of them when I pulled the bullet and emptied the powder I couldn't identify the primer due to the powder stuck to it. Definite oil migration to the pocket.

Here's some pics. I have more primers than bullets so I guess I'll yank them, clean em, and load with fresh primers. Sucks but what can you do.

I tried cleaning out the primer and can't tell if it went off or not. My guess is no.

I still have yet to try the rounds with bottomed out primers seating. I'll keep you posted.

I posted the update because I don't want to blame Wolf for my own dumb mistakes :)

I could only capture two , but the primers were actually worse than it looks in the photo LOL

ERC12 12-28-2012 2:47 PM

what if you swage the pocket so that the primer sits good. Would that work

johnny1290 12-28-2012 3:59 PM

did it look like my primer pockets needed further swaging? I honestly don't know. any suspicious ones I swage and prime. if I can seat a primer I thought that's all I needed. maybe I'm wrong?

ERC12 12-28-2012 4:04 PM

Im going to Swag my casing before I prime it and make sure they are dry

ERC12 12-29-2012 9:00 AM

Hey Johnny1290 I swaged the pockets and the primers seated easy and I use a hand load primer. Im going to load 50 rounds today then head to the range tomorrow if the weather permits.

Bill Steele 12-29-2012 9:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny1290 (Post 10040061)
OK just a quick update...I tore apart the duds. Definitely there was powder stuck to everything, even clumpy in some places. Most of them when I pulled the bullet and emptied the powder I couldn't identify the primer due to the powder stuck to it. Definite oil migration to the pocket.

Here's some pics. I have more primers than bullets so I guess I'll yank them, clean em, and load with fresh primers. Sucks but what can you do.

I tried cleaning out the primer and can't tell if it went off or not. My guess is no.

I still have yet to try the rounds with bottomed out primers seating. I'll keep you posted.

I posted the update because I don't want to blame Wolf for my own dumb mistakes :)

I could only capture two , but the primers were actually worse than it looks in the photo LOL

If you have enough oil in there to clump the powder, that is definitely a problem. Whether it caused your fail to fires is anybody's guess, but for sure oil will cause ignition problems for primers.

Maybe give some of that pump lanolin based lube a try. RCBS and Dillon both make them, or you can make your own 1 part liquid lanolin to 8-10 parts 99% isopropyl alcohol.

In any case, don't use petrolium based oils as lubes.

Fyathyrio 12-29-2012 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiller (Post 10034683)
Im pretty sure its the primers... I use the standard copper wolf small rifle primers with the exact same load your using... Out of 2k rounds ive had about 30 do that.... And moisture is not an issue....

Try switching to tula... Ive used over 10k+ of those and never a problem with them!

Wolf and Tula are two different suppliers selling the same primers manufactured in the same Russian factory.

Sideline Shooter 12-29-2012 3:49 PM

Ay ya yay, here we go again. Ok no offense to the OP but hopefully newbies will learn from this experience. You can't cut corners reloading. Period. Tumbling is a crucial part to reloading. Your safety as well as the shooter next to you is always top priority. A contaminated round can get you a squib load and a bullet stuck in the barrel. The next shot is disaster. You woudn't start baking a pie without all the ingredients right? I don't want a slice of that!!

The OP has learned the lesson and the tumbler is on the shopping list. Good for him, disaster averted and he can move on to adding tumbling to the reloading procedure. Plus it makes the brass all nice and shiny:D

sideline shooter

TomMcC 12-29-2012 5:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny1290 (Post 10040061)
OK just a quick update...I tore apart the duds. Definitely there was powder stuck to everything, even clumpy in some places. Most of them when I pulled the bullet and emptied the powder I couldn't identify the primer due to the powder stuck to it. Definite oil migration to the pocket.

Here's some pics. I have more primers than bullets so I guess I'll yank them, clean em, and load with fresh primers. Sucks but what can you do.

I tried cleaning out the primer and can't tell if it went off or not. My guess is no.

I still have yet to try the rounds with bottomed out primers seating. I'll keep you posted.

I posted the update because I don't want to blame Wolf for my own dumb mistakes :)

I could only capture two , but the primers were actually worse than it looks in the photo LOL

Johnny

What you have in the clumping is an incomplete burn. The inconsistent lots of Wolf primers sort of go off causing this. If you look at the clumped powder under a magnifying glass you'll see that the gray deterrent coating is partially burned off. It's the primers.

ERC12 12-30-2012 1:58 PM

Johnny 1290 I just got back from the Range. I fired all 50 rounds that I loaded yesterday. I had 0 of 50 misfire. They actually gave me a great group. My recipe for those 50 rounds was. H335 24 gn Wolf primers .223SRP Hornady bullets 55gr. FMJ-BT C.O.A.L. 2.220

johnny1290 12-30-2012 2:13 PM

Oh man great to hear! I'm using the same recipe with soft nose bullets. I've never shot my rifle before but was impressed with my groups at 50 yards iron sights.

Glad to hear it worked out well for you!

Smart to only shoot 50. With ammo prices what they are who can afford to go nuts?!?

ronas 01-01-2013 4:45 PM

Wolf made or makes three sr primers. The copper colored ones, silver colored ones, only difference is cup is harder on silver colored one. Both have same amount of primer material. The other one is which is silver colored but has more primer material in it. I think it's consider a magnum primer.

I have had the identically results when I comparted the Wolf SR copper colored cup with the CCI 450 which is considered a magnum primer.

There are not standards when comparing primers.

johnny1290 03-12-2013 8:59 PM

Hi, guys, just wanted to update this thread.

After shooting a few hundred rounds, it looks like the problem is resolved. I think I contaminated the primers. I removed all the old ones, tumbled, and reloaded and had no problems at all to report.

Mine were the thicker cup hotter primer, the latest version, and I shot with H335, FWIW.

Just wanted to update.


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