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MasterrEugene 11-26-2012 4:31 PM

Question/s about water storage
 
Hello Calguns Family,

My family has a 55 gallon food grade barrel in the backyard with water in it. The barrel gets a good amount of shade because it is under a trilee with greenery growing all over the top, giving the barrel a good amount of shade (I meant that the trilee has the greenery, not the barrel). That being said, i've read sources online that direct you to bleach the water for storage.

My question is, is bleaching stored water a necessary step for water storage, or can one simply store unbleached water and just boil it before drinking as an alternative?

I understand that algae and other greenery can grow in the water, but shouldn't boiling before drinking fix that problem?

Please don't give irrelevant input. I tire of asking questions and people giving their irrelevant input, deviating from the topic, and my question never gets answered. I mean no offense, and sorry if this offends you, but please stick to the topic. Is stored water that has never been treated by bleach potable after boiling?

thank you

speedrrracer 11-26-2012 4:53 PM

No, boiling will not solve the problem.

Remember: boiling kills live stuff, but it doesn't alter the laws of chemistry. Toxins released by certain algae are still toxins. Those toxins are still in the water (assuming you had the really bad kind of algal growth) and can ruin your day.

Ounce of prevention really applies in these cases. Use a bit of bleach beforehand.

Some reading:
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/pubs...bacter-eng.php

gemoose23 11-26-2012 5:00 PM

I think I remember that if your water is from a city source/treament plant you do not need to bleach.

If from untreated place, I get my water from a well on the land, bleaching wouldn't hurt.

Either way you end up boiling stored water to ensure safety.

here's a non-Canadian water link :patriot:http://www.prepareandsurvive.info/do...andStorage.pdf

frigginchi 11-26-2012 5:00 PM

Speedrrracer is right.

It only takes an 1/8 of a cup of bleach to treat 55 gallons. When you boil the water the bleach will out gas. bleach is only .99 cents a gallon. cheap insurance against bubble gut.

MasterrEugene 11-26-2012 5:20 PM

Thanks guys my question has been answered. One more thing if you dont mind. I read that the bleach needs to be unscented. Is this the same thing as "regular scent"?

Thanks

Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk 2

TheChief 11-26-2012 6:13 PM

It depends...each vendor has their own interpretation. Regular scent could mean it has the original regular scent they started adding to their bleach line 20 years ago or it could mean its gonna smell like regular bleach.

You should be able to just call them and ask if you can use their "regular scented" bleach to treat water and they will know.

speedrrracer 11-26-2012 6:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterrEugene (Post 9796008)
Thanks guys my question has been answered. One more thing if you dont mind. I read that the bleach needs to be unscented. Is this the same thing as "regular scent"?

I agree with Chief -- chemically speaking, what does "regular scent" mean?

There's no way to know, obviously. I would guess the answer is "no, you don't want regular scent, whatever that means"...the absence of something (unscented) would seem to be very different than the presence of something ("regular scent") but I have no way to substantiate that for bleach.

DavidR310 11-26-2012 7:06 PM

For Clorox....regular scented means no scents added and the scent you smell is naturally occurring from the chemicals. I do not know about other brands.

MasterrEugene 11-26-2012 7:11 PM

thanks for everyones input

DavidR310 11-26-2012 7:24 PM

You could always email Clorox to hear it from the horse's mouth:
http://www.clorox.com/contact/

wjc 11-26-2012 8:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidR310 (Post 9796740)
For Clorox....regular scented means no scents added and the scent you smell is naturally occurring from the chemicals. I do not know about other brands.

Just an addition...use the "Regular" Clorox bleach. Don't use Splashless or the scented bleaches. They contain other chemicals.

You basically want 6% Sodium Hypochlorate in pure form.

Skidmark 11-26-2012 8:11 PM

You can add some bleach, to water stored like that. But be certain that your bleach is still good - it can go bad. I prefer using iodine to treat water for pathogens, it holds up much better over time than bleach. My own primary water storage unit is down in the basement, it's called a "water heater." I also have some backup storage units, they're called "toilet tanks." Beyond that, maybe 20 gallons in old bleach bottles and five-gallon jugs.

wjc 11-26-2012 8:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skidmark (Post 9797271)
You can add some bleach, to water stored like that. But be certain that your bleach is still good - it can go bad. I prefer using iodine to treat water for pathogens, it holds up much better over time than bleach. My own primary water storage unit is down in the basement, it's called a "water heater." I also have some backup storage units, they're called "toilet tanks." Beyond that, maybe 20 gallons in old bleach bottles and five-gallon jugs.

Just an fyi, Iodine can be bad for people with an iodine allergy.

http://www.iodine-resource.com/iodine-allergy.html

firemanjoe 11-26-2012 9:00 PM

I have a bunch of boxes of the 6-1gal bottles from Costco, should I do anything to treat those 1 gal bottles?

DeanW66 11-27-2012 9:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterrEugene (Post 9795649)
Is stored water that has never been treated by bleach potable after boiling?

As mentioned by others, no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedrrracer (Post 9795808)
Toxins released by certain algae are still toxins. Those toxins are still in the water (assuming you had the really bad kind of algal growth) and can ruin your day.

A proper filter + boiling would be good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gemoose23 (Post 9795854)
I think I remember that if your water is from a city source/treament plant you do not need to bleach.

False.

Municipally treated water, for the most part in the USA, is chloraminated. To try and put it simply, this is a blend of chlorine (A.K.A. bleach) and ammonia. The reason is that chlorine alone will degrade in the distribution system losing its "killing power." Adding ammonia extends the killing lifetime (but also introduces other potential issues, side tracks from this discussion).

Back to bleaching your storage containers: the bleach will degrade over time, thus exposing your supply to the original growth worries you started with. How long of time is sort of open to debate but is weeks/months not years.

Bonafides: I'm a state certified drinking water treatment plant operator.

Laythor 11-27-2012 9:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firemanjoe (Post 9797657)
I have a bunch of boxes of the 6-1gal bottles from Costco, should I do anything to treat those 1 gal bottles?

nope.

xrMike 11-27-2012 12:15 PM

Consider those full-sized chlorine tablets used to chlorinate pools instead. They last indefinitely, and you can use them to make your own liquid chlorine (the method for converting pellets to liquid chlorine is posted all over the net).

Liquid chlorine like chlorox is just chlorine gas dissolved in water. It goes bad over time (weak, actually) as the gas escapes.

A few pounds of those pellets would last you a lifetime.

CAHighSierra 11-27-2012 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firemanjoe (Post 9797657)
I have a bunch of boxes of the 6-1gal bottles from Costco, should I do anything to treat those 1 gal bottles?

Change them to different containers for long term storage. Certain plastic bottles will leech crap into the water from the plastic overtime.

Skidmark 11-27-2012 4:36 PM

People should be rotating their stored water, just as they rotate other stores like gasoline, diesel, food, etc.

Replenish old with fresh, and consume what was just taken out of storage.

stitch_paradox 11-27-2012 6:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skidmark (Post 9802440)
People should be rotating their stored water, just as they rotate other stores like gasoline, diesel, food, etc.

Replenish old with fresh, and consume what was just taken out of storage.


^^^^ This


I rotate mine every 4 to 6 months. Is that too long?

calif 15-22 11-28-2012 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skidmark (Post 9802440)
People should be rotating their stored water, just as they rotate other stores like gasoline, diesel, food, etc.

Replenish old with fresh, and consume what was just taken out of storage.

^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have (2) 55 galloon HDPE Blue food grade containers in the garage. Fill them up, add a little clorox bleach and empty every 6 months. I don't rotate water as it is cheap to pump it out on the driveway and refill. If SHTF during the 1 hour it takes to fill both then I'm out of luck. But so far this has worked well for me. Don't forget to get a hand pump for the containers as syphoning is a pain.

Good luck

paul0660 11-28-2012 12:14 PM

Quote:

I tire of asking questions and people giving their irrelevant input, deviating from the topic, and my question never gets answered. I mean no offense, and sorry if this offends you, but please stick to the topic.
Geez. You get a headache from reading?

We store water in gallon jugs with three drops of bleach. If we had to use it shtf, we would boil it before, IF POSSIBLE. 55 gallons won't stay sweet for long.

Cnynrat 11-28-2012 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterrEugene (Post 9796776)
thanks for everyones input

I think the proper procedure when storing in 55 gal drums is to "sterilize" the drum first with a higher concentrate of bleach. I think they recommend about 1C of bleach per 55 gal drum. Let that sit for an hour or so, dump that out and rinse. Then fill with water treated at the lower level.

NorCalSurvival 11-29-2012 8:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cnynrat (Post 9807982)
I think the proper procedure when storing in 55 gal drums is to "sterilize" the drum first with a higher concentrate of bleach. I think they recommend about 1C of bleach per 55 gal drum. Let that sit for an hour or so, dump that out and rinse. Then fill with water treated at the lower level.

Probably the only answer i agree with so far... Boiling is adequate for purifying water. If you take initial steps to properly sanitize the container, It should store well treated or untreated. JMO

Katch 11-29-2012 8:42 AM

Use Calcium Hypochlorite to Disinfect Water

A 1-pound pag of calcium hypochlorite in granular form will treat up to 10,000 gallons of drinking water

Calcium hypochlorite is one of the best chemical disinfectants for water, better than household bleach by far. It destroys a variety of disease causing organisms including bacteria, yeast, fungus, spores, and viruses.

Calcium Hypochlorite is widely available for use as swimming pool chlorine tablets or white powder that is much more stable than chlorine. This is often known as “pool shock”.

How to Disinfect Water Using Calcium Hypochlorite

Using granular calcium hypochlorite to disinfect water is a two step process.

To make a stock of chlorine solution (do not drink this!) dissolve 1 heaping teaspoon (about one-quarter of an ounce) of high-test (78%) granular calcium hypochlorite for each two gallons (eight liters) of water. To disinfect water add one part of the chlorine solution to 100 parts water to be treated. Let the mixture sit for at least one-half hour before drinking. Be sure to obtain the dry granular calcium hypochlorite since once it is made into a liquid solution it will begin to degrade and eventually become useless as a disinfecting agent. This also means you should make your treated drinking water in small batches, for example enough for a few weeks at a time at most.

Another plus for using calcium hypochlorite to disinfect water for emergency use is that a little goes a very long way. A 1-pound pag of calcium hypochlorite in granular form typically costs only a few US dollars and can be obtained in any swimming pool supply section of your hardware store or online. This amount will treat up to 10,000 gallons of drinking water, which is enough for a family of four for some six or seven years at a gallon per day per person!

Calcium hypochlorite will store for a long period of time and remain effective as a chemical drinking water treatment. So get rid of the household bleach and buy a can of Calcium hypochlorite for your disaster emergency water disinfection needs. It lasts far longer and treats far more water than the traditional chlorine bleach water disinfection treatment.

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...d.php?t=115642

Skidmark 11-29-2012 8:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katch (Post 9813672)
This article was originally posted on Survival Topics.

What article? Were you quoting from another source? Please provide a link when doing so.

xrMike 11-29-2012 9:31 AM

Katch, nice post summarizing the superiority of granular hypochlorite over liquid bleach. I was hoping somebody would post up the method, since I was being lazy (above).

Fresh liquid bleach is fine if kept tightly capped and used within a year or so.

But for long term you really want the pool shock or the tablets (tablets are cheaper).

Cnynrat 11-29-2012 10:14 AM

Another alternative is to use Purogene, which is chlorine dioxide.

Quinc 11-29-2012 3:32 PM

What if you stored distilled water? Yes it is missing the minerals but couldn't you add those back in or take a multivitamin?

Cnynrat 11-29-2012 3:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinc (Post 9816429)
What if you stored distilled water? Yes it is missing the minerals but couldn't you add those back in or take a multivitamin?

I think distilled water still needs to be treated to avoid bacterial contamination.

wjc 11-29-2012 6:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinc (Post 9816429)
What if you stored distilled water? Yes it is missing the minerals but couldn't you add those back in or take a multivitamin?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cnynrat (Post 9816460)
I think distilled water still needs to be treated to avoid bacterial contamination.

...and algae

MasterrEugene 11-30-2012 12:32 PM

what about putting the stored algae water through a filter such as a berkey sports bottle? will it then be potable?

jeffrice6 12-08-2012 11:04 PM

Just added 150 gallons to the supply ~ 3 Tablespoons of bleach per 55g.

the86d 12-09-2012 4:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanW66 (Post 9799861)
Municipally treated water, for the most part in the USA, is chlorinated. To try and put it simply, this is a blend of chlorine (A.K.A. bleach) and ammonia. The reason is that chlorine alone will degrade in the distribution system losing its "killing power." Adding ammonia extends the killing lifetime (but also introduces other potential issues, side tracks from this discussion).

Back to bleaching your storage containers: the bleach will degrade over time, thus exposing your supply to the original growth worries you started with. How long of time is sort of open to debate but is weeks/months not years.

Bonafides: I'm a state certified drinking water treatment plant operator.

Hmmm. If I put a few drops of bleach in a FDA approved container such as empty 2 liter soda bottles after rinsing out thoroughly, fill with chlorinated Municipally treated water, then seal the lid, I would assume that the bleach added should kill any microorganisms in the container, and be safe for storage for a long time, as if I don't break the seal even the degrading bleach along with the air/water tight sealed top should keep everything inside dead, as the bottle can not be added to (new living organisms) because it is sealed.

Correct me if I am wrong, and tell me why if I am.

JoeJinKY 12-09-2012 5:58 AM

I am pondering this same question, about water storage.

The "solution" I am currently considering is the purchase of a 10,000 gallon underground water storage tank buried on my property, and plumbed into my water inlet to the house. The idea would be that once the tank was filled, every toilet flush, every shower, every load of laundry would replace a small portion of the stored water as fresh water from the city water source would enter the tank and the stored water would exit the tank to the intended use. I figure that would prevent the water from becoming stale. Am I wrong?

If the water supply was cut off or became non-potable, I'd have a pump to get the rest of the water out, and it would ALL go through large multistage filter that would remove anything of concern before it came into the house.

http://www.tank-depot.com/productdet...x?part=N-41338

http://www.tank-depot.com/productima...WaterTanks.jpg

Dutch3 12-09-2012 6:15 AM

I have 150 gal. stored in blue plastic drums. I used to keep them outside (in the shade) but algae still formed over the course of my 1-year rotation schedule.

This year, I moved them into a shed and we will see how it looks in the spring.

I have been using liquid bleach. I once made the mistake of using splashless. (It states "Regular" on the label, with "Splashless" in a smaller size underneath). Splashless has some sort of soapy additive to thicken it.

I poured some in the drum and began filling it. I went to empty another drum and when I came back, the drum with the splashless bleach had puked out about 100sf of suds, LOL.

When I rotate the water in the spring, I plan to use the granular form instead of liquid bleach.

JoeJinKY 12-09-2012 6:49 AM

DeanW66, since you are the apparent expert here, what is your suggestion regarding my previous post? I can afford to put a 10-20,000 gallon water tank on my property. I am wondering about above ground vs. below ground issues. The tanks are advertised to be FOR storage of potable water, and they are either white translucent, green or black.

I thought a white tank would be best, because it would be easiest to see algae growth along the walls using a waterproof PTZ camera built into the top of the tank, especially if the tank was enclosed in a structure that offered an external light source such as florescent bulbs that could be turned on for a quick inspection of the tank's interior surfaces.

I figure that a below ground tank would be better, but an above ground tank is also an option in that there is a place on my property where the bottom of the tank would be low enough to not obscure the view. However, this is KENTUCKY, where people do a lot of shooting! I wouldn't want a stray bullet to find its way through the side of my tank. This is why I am looking at underground options.

Additionally, can you point me to a good filtration device or system that can handle LARGE volumes of water? I don't want the wimpy faucet mounted units for $19.95. I would like something that could filter 40 or 50,000 gallons of water before it needed service, and something that would virtually guarantee GOOD water. I saw a five-stage filter unit that uses UV light, osmosis and a carbon filter, as well as two other stages, to filter microbes and contaminants out of water. It is interesting, but I am not sure it can handle the water usage of an entire home, via a storage tank source as I propose.

On a related note ... about capturing rain water ... is this SAFE? Can it be made potable? I can't imagine that catching water off of your roof, where birds poop on your shingles and dead bugs rot away, is water that one should drink or use for cooking! Still, I see a lot of stuff on the Net about catching rain water and storing it in tanks. I assume this water is mainly for irrigation purposes. Is there a way to SAFELY capture rain water for potable use?

I am doing some things to my home to TRY to get into a better position, should the economy turn south and things get ugly. I have already added a 1,000 gallon propane tank and will be adding a second 1,000 gallon tank soon. I just received my Cummins-Onan 20kW standby generator. I have a 16-camera DVR and exterior motion sensors. Sadly, I was forced to sell all of my boats at the last gun show to pay for all of this. Dang! I probably should have bought a gun while I was there.

I will soon begin a construction project. I am tearing down my 100-year-old tobacco barn and replacing it with a new three-story building, 32'x60' with a poured concrete basement, a workshop on the ground floor and guest bedrooms above, with a large attic above that. The building will have a separate secure storeroom for food, medical supplies, spare tires and such, and I am even considering installing a lift so I can move heavy items from floor to floor without lugging them up or down a flight of stairs.

http://www.beachhouselifts.com/Key-Safety-Features.html

http://www.beachhouselifts.com/images/panel.jpg



I will patiently wait for your response and advice.

DeanW66 12-09-2012 7:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the86d (Post 9881583)
Hmmm. If I put a few drops of bleach in a FDA approved container such as empty 2 liter soda bottles after rinsing out thoroughly, fill with chlorinated Municipally treated water, then seal the lid, I would assume that the bleach added should kill any microorganisms in the container, and be safe for storage for a long time, as if I don't break the seal even the degrading bleach along with the air/water tight sealed top should keep everything inside dead, as the bottle can not be added to (new living organisms) because it is sealed.

Correct me if I am wrong, and tell me why if I am.

Adding the bleach changes the ratio of the municipal water (assuming your municipality, as most do, produces chloraminated water) chlorine and ammonia. Possibly affecting its ability to inactive the nasties. Note I said possibly. Might be ok, might not.

Have you ever cracked open a 2L bottle of soda, put the lid back on as tight as you can and left it to sit for a day or two? Does it lose carbonation in those couple of days? If so, that means you don't have an airtight seal. I'm not convinced your idea is 100% safe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeJinKY (Post 9881848)
DeanW66, since you are the apparent expert here, what is your suggestion regarding my previous post? I can afford to put a 10-20,000 gallon water tank on my property. I am wondering about above ground vs. below ground issues. The tanks are advertised to be FOR storage of potable water, and they are either white translucent, green or black.

I would not call myself and expert; simply knowledgeable. The tanks are for potable water. I happen to live on a well system, no municpal water and have a black one fed from my well.

I thought a white tank would be best, because it would be easiest to see algae growth along the walls using a waterproof PTZ camera built into the top of the tank, especially if the tank was enclosed in a structure that offered an external light source such as florescent bulbs that could be turned on for a quick inspection of the tank's interior surfaces.

I believe white will break down in sunlight faster. Most of the storage tanks I see in use near me are black or dark green for this reason.

I figure that a below ground tank would be better, but an above ground tank is also an option in that there is a place on my property where the bottom of the tank would be low enough to not obscure the view. However, this is KENTUCKY, where people do a lot of shooting! I wouldn't want a stray bullet to find its way through the side of my tank. This is why I am looking at underground options.

Additionally, can you point me to a good filtration device or system that can handle LARGE volumes of water? I don't want the wimpy faucet mounted units for $19.95. I would like something that could filter 40 or 50,000 gallons of water before it needed service, and something that would virtually guarantee GOOD water. I saw a five-stage filter unit that uses UV light, osmosis and a carbon filter, as well as two other stages, to filter microbes and contaminants out of water. It is interesting, but I am not sure it can handle the water usage of an entire home, via a storage tank source as I propose.

I don't have answers/comments for the above sections.

On a related note ... about capturing rain water ... is this SAFE? Can it be made potable? I can't imagine that catching water off of your roof, where birds poop on your shingles and dead bugs rot away, is water that one should drink or use for cooking! Still, I see a lot of stuff on the Net about catching rain water and storing it in tanks. I assume this water is mainly for irrigation purposes. Is there a way to SAFELY capture rain water for potable use?

I don't think it's safe for drinking w/o some filtering and chemical treatment. For example, municipalities are required to regularly (weekly) test the water in various parts of their distribution system. When collecting samples during rain, the field personnel collecting the samples have to be super extra careful to avoid getting rain in the sample bottle, because we are taught that a single rain drop can cause a false positive for contamination.

I am doing some things to my home to TRY to get into a better position, should the economy turn south and things get ugly. I have already added a 1,000 gallon propane tank and will be adding a second 1,000 gallon tank soon. I just received my Cummins-Onan 20kW standby generator. I have a 16-camera DVR and exterior motion sensors. Sadly, I was forced to sell all of my boats at the last gun show to pay for all of this. Dang! I probably should have bought a gun while I was there.

I will soon begin a construction project. I am tearing down my 100-year-old tobacco barn and replacing it with a new three-story building, 32'x60' with a poured concrete basement, a workshop on the ground floor and guest bedrooms above, with a large attic above that. The building will have a separate secure storeroom for food, medical supplies, spare tires and such, and I am even considering installing a lift so I can move heavy items from floor to floor without lugging them up or down a flight of stairs.

http://www.beachhouselifts.com/Key-Safety-Features.html

http://www.beachhouselifts.com/images/panel.jpg

sounds like quite a serious set of projects.

I will patiently wait for your response and advice.


badreligion 12-09-2012 7:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeJinKY (Post 9881717)
I am pondering this same question, about water storage.

The "solution" I am currently considering is the purchase of a 10,000 gallon underground water storage tank buried on my property, and plumbed into my water inlet to the house. The idea would be that once the tank was filled, every toilet flush, every shower, every load of laundry would replace a small portion of the stored water as fresh water from the city water source would enter the tank and the stored water would exit the tank to the intended use. I figure that would prevent the water from becoming stale. Am I wrong?

If the water supply was cut off or became non-potable, I'd have a pump to get the rest of the water out, and it would ALL go through large multistage filter that would remove anything of concern before it came into the house.

http://www.tank-depot.com/productdet...x?part=N-41338

http://www.tank-depot.com/productima...WaterTanks.jpg


Joe the main issue is water pressure. You will require a pressure/accumulater tank to accomplish your goals. Most municipal water is supplied to customers between 60-120 psi with the ideal around 80psi. This kind of pressure will destroy most of your standard plastic barrels as they are non pressurized containers. So to accomplish your ideas your looking at a steel or stainless steel pressure tank and your costs go through the roof just for the tank of that size.

You could use an underground storage tank that could be made to work in the way your wanting but it will take more work. The basic idea is like an air compressor. Your main storage tank is feed from muni water via a valve, either manual or float, this tank is like the free air around your compressor. You then pump water from your storage tank to a pressure tank (300 gallons?), just like an air compressor. The pressure tank is what feeds your house.

Its not impossible to do what your wanting but it does take quite a bit of work and a certain level of maintence to keep it all running properly.

JoeJinKY 12-09-2012 7:38 AM

What about something like this?

http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsde...x?OHID=3802305

http://media.sandhills.com/img.axd?i...0h1KcVPw%3d%3d


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