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-   -   My first denial - Sell it to his girlfriend? (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=648564)

Boogaloo 11-25-2012 6:09 PM

My first denial - Sell it to his girlfriend?
 
I just got my first denial. I got the call from the DOJ on Saturday as I was coming home from a day of shooting with the son in law.

I immediately called the customer who is a friend, and told him to stop what he was doing and call the number I gave him. He did, and it turns out it is legitimate. He had an arrest nearly 10 years ago that resulted in a misdemeanor charge, and that is that.

Now, the customer wants to have his girlfriend buy the gun (Glock 17), and I am really uncertain how to proceed. I actually work with this guy, and he is a good dude. He was at a big gathering, got pushed around by some drunk guy, defended himself, and ended up getting arrested (10 years ago this February).

The person he spoke with at the DOJ advised him that his restriction will be lifted on February 14th of 2013 (a couple months from now) but he wants to have his girlfriend by the gun now, and he will buy another gun in February when he is free and clear. I called the DOJ back and repeated what the customer told me, and they said they did not feel this was an issue since the girlfriend is just another person, and that they have no control, concern or advice on that issue.

How would you proceed? Should I go ahead and DROS the girlfriend and sell it to her? or advise the customer to just wait until February until the restriction drops off? He is pretty clear with me that he wants the girlfriend to just buy it. I told him I need to wait for clarification before I proceed.

Would love some quick advice fellas. Thanks!

bohoki 11-25-2012 6:18 PM

cancel sale and refund, if she wants to buy a gun have her come in and pick one out

Boogaloo 11-25-2012 6:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bohoki (Post 9789709)
cancel sale and refund, if she wants to buy a gun have her come in and pick one out

All fine and good, but what if she "coincidentally" picks out the same Glock 17 ?
Are you suggesting that as long as I cancel the sale and refund the deposit (with paper trail) that I effectively eliminate any possible "straw purchase" implications?

Also, there is a bit of a hang up here because I am a special order salesman when it comes to Glocks. I purchased this from a distributor AFTER the client payed me to make the purchase. If I refund him everything but the DROS fee, I am basically stuck with the Glock unless I hold it until February (when his restriction clears).

bohoki 11-25-2012 6:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogaloo (Post 9789807)
All fine and good, but what if she "coincidentally" picks out the same Glock 17 ?
Are you suggesting that as long as I cancel the sale and refund the deposit (with paper trail) that I effectively eliminate any possible "straw purchase" implications?

Also, there is a bit of a hang up here because I am a special order salesman when it comes to Glocks. I purchased this from a distributor AFTER the client payed me to make the purchase. If I refund him everything but the DROS fee, I am basically stuck with the Glock unless I hold it until February (when his restriction clears).

how many glock 17s do you have in stock it would be good if it was a different one

like the bafte says "know your customer"

if it smells fishy don't risk you lively hood tell them to go to a specific competitor politely and explain you are not comfortable doing buisness with them

Boogaloo 11-25-2012 7:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bohoki (Post 9789870)
how many glock 17s do you have in stock it would be good if it was a different one

like the bafte says "know your customer"

if it smells fishy don't risk you lively hood tell them to go to a specific competitor politely and explain you are not comfortable doing buisness with them

Thanks for the reply bohoki,

As I mentioned, this is a guy I work with, he is actually someone I consider to be a pretty good friend. I have worked with him for the past 2 years now, and I know this is not going to be a straw purchase. The gun was originally intended to be for the girlfriends personal protection while her man is at work, sometimes until 4 or 5 in the morning. His idea was he would buy this gun, get her comfortable shooting it, and it would be their home defense firearm.

They live together, and are engaged to be married. If she comes in and buys any other gun, it is going to be where he can have access to it no matter what gun they choose. Their plan was to get this gun, get her trained and comfortable with it, and then buy a rifle next, or perhaps a shotgun.

I have been nurturing this guy for several months leading up to this, and was very clear with him when I asked him if he had a clean history. He did not think that his nearly 10 year old fight was going to be an issue. He was 18 then, he is 28 now.

I will call the BATFE tomorrow and get their take on it, but was hoping I could get some clarity here as well....

Thoughts ?

RileyBean 11-25-2012 8:07 PM

I think it is a clear straw purchase. Tell him to wait until he can buy it himself.

bruss01 11-25-2012 8:35 PM

I agree - This is only 3 months. That is not too long to wait. If you are such close friends, you can loan the girlfriend one of your personal guns (providing she has a valid HSC). It is HER job to make sure he does not have access to it until he is clear.

DOJ may be baiting you. After you called them I would bet anything you have a "surprise" audit in the next few months. Be prepared, have everything in order and above reproach.

tenpercentfirearms 11-25-2012 9:10 PM

Sounds like a straw purchase to me. However, you can ask her over and over again while she is filling out the paperwork who the gun is really for. If she says for the boyfriend, cancel it and then educate them how the process works. If she keeps swearing it is for her, then that is about all you can do.

I will tell you this. When I have been audited, the ATF wants to know who my denied guns go to. So Jan from the Fresno office comes in and wants copies of all of the 4473s where denied guns went to.

So this Glock 17 gets denied, they want to find out who got it eventually. It would be interesting for them to find out it is in the same house it was denied from and that you knew about it.

I would pass.

echoarms 11-26-2012 8:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms (Post 9790974)
Sounds like a straw purchase to me. However, you can ask her over and over again while she is filling out the paperwork who the gun is really for. If she says for the boyfriend, cancel it and then educate them how the process works. If she keeps swearing it is for her, then that is about all you can do.

I will tell you this. When I have been audited, the ATF wants to know who my denied guns go to. So Jan from the Fresno office comes in and wants copies of all of the 4473s where denied guns went to.

So this Glock 17 gets denied, they want to find out who got it eventually. It would be interesting for them to find out it is in the same house it was denied from and that you knew about it.

I would pass.

I got a denial for expired DL on a customer, he sorted out his info with DMV and passed the next background check. Something like that is totally in the green correct?

paul0660 11-26-2012 8:46 AM

Three posts by the OP, new pertinent info in each one.

Laythor 11-26-2012 8:53 AM

it sounds like you have reservations about making this sale, listen to your gut.

Tubbie 11-26-2012 9:08 AM

"I called the DOJ back and repeated what the customer told me, and they said they did not feel this was an issue since the girlfriend is just another person, and that they have no control, concern or advice on that issue." So, what's the problem?

All you need to do is take care of the paperwork as required by DOJ. You're performing a legalized business transaction in accordance to the laws of the state.

kemasa 11-26-2012 10:39 AM

Just don't do it. It will cause you problems. Let them wait until Feb. 2013 or use another FFL. It is not worth the money for the possible problems.

tenpercentfirearms 11-26-2012 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by echoarms (Post 9792824)
I got a denial for expired DL on a customer, he sorted out his info with DMV and passed the next background check. Something like that is totally in the green correct?

Yes. If a customer gets denied, but answers all of the 4473 and DROS questions correctly, you did nothing wrong. If the customer comes back in and says they should pass now and you run them again, you have done nothing wrong.

tenpercentfirearms 11-26-2012 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbie (Post 9792974)
"I called the DOJ back and repeated what the customer told me, and they said they did not feel this was an issue since the girlfriend is just another person, and that they have no control, concern or advice on that issue." So, what's the problem?

All you need to do is take care of the paperwork as required by DOJ. You're performing a legalized business transaction in accordance to the laws of the state.

What about the BATFE? They definitely have straw purchase rules which this sounds like one and is illegal.

Are you even an FFL?

dachan 11-26-2012 1:09 PM

I wouldn't do it. This guy is a prohibited person, not just some DMV screwup. It will have all the appearances of a strawman purchase, even if you think it is not. As stated above, one of the first things checked during an ATF audit is the disposition of all denials. The same address will definitely be caught and you will have to answer for the transfer. You've got too much to lose, and nothing to gain. So he's a friend, I wouldn't do it if it was my own father and mother. If the original intent was always to give it to the GF, why didn't she DROS it to start with? The denial is his fault, not yours. So you special ordered a $450 gun which turns out to be nothing but a G17, big deal. What's wrong with telling him to come back in 3months. You can also give him his money back, less the 10% and DROS fees, then sell the G17 here on CG at cost. You'll make your money back with 10% profit easily within the week. Again, don't do it, nothing to gain, and everything to lose.

Boogaloo 11-26-2012 1:13 PM

I called the BATFE today and was told that I should pass on this one. I agreed and shared that information with the customer. It is just not worth it for the $50.00 I would make on the sale. I advised the customer that he would have to wait until his restriction clears in February.

His next question was : "Well, can she come in and buy a different gun?" I said I was not comfortable selling her one, now that I know what I know, particularly since they live together. I am implicated if something goes wrong, or it has the appearance of a straw purchase when I get audited.

I made all of the appropriate calls to DOJ and BATFE for clarification. Sharing here may help another new FFL in the future. I am not too proud to ask questions that may be second nature to you, the more "seasoned" FFL's.

My customer completely understands, and I am going to hold this particular gun for him until February when his restriction falls off. I am not going to sell his girlfriend another gun either.

brentwoodarmory 11-27-2012 10:01 PM

Fine line of straw purchase
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RileyBean (Post 9790551)
I think it is a clear straw purchase. Tell him to wait until he can buy it himself.

Friend or no friend, in my opinion it's a straw purchase. I'm a FFL and to be honest with you, if I was in your shoes, tell your buddy to just wait till he clears DoJ so everything is on the up and up. Just looking out. Good luck.

brentwoodarmory 11-27-2012 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogaloo (Post 9794410)
I called the BATFE today and was told that I should pass on this one. I agreed and shared that information with the customer. It is just not worth it for the $50.00 I would make on the sale. I advised the customer that he would have to wait until his restriction clears in February.

His next question was : "Well, can she come in and buy a different gun?" I said I was not comfortable selling her one, now that I know what I know, particularly since they live together. I am implicated if something goes wrong, or it has the appearance of a straw purchase when I get audited.

I made all of the appropriate calls to DOJ and BATFE for clarification. Sharing here may help another new FFL in the future. I am not too proud to ask questions that may be second nature to you, the more "seasoned" FFL's.

My customer completely understands, and I am going to hold this particular gun for him until February when his restriction falls off. I am not going to sell his girlfriend another gun either.

Smart move! I'm sure it will all work out for him. Good luck!

Malco 11-28-2012 2:26 AM

You did the right thing, Boogaloo. If it looks, feels, and smells like a straw purchase, it isn't worth the trouble (or the $50).

Tubbie 11-29-2012 5:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms (Post 9793946)
What about the BATFE? They definitely have straw purchase rules which this sounds like one and is illegal.

Are you even an FFL?

No, but I play one on TV.

CSACANNONEER 11-29-2012 6:03 PM

$50 profit vs. possible jail time, possible legal fees and losing your FFL. It's not a hard choice to make and, you obviously made the right one.

NSR500 11-30-2012 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER (Post 9817466)
$50 profit vs. possible jail time, possible legal fees and losing your FFL. It's not a hard choice to make and, you obviously made the right one.

+1,000,000

Eddy's Shooting Sports 11-30-2012 9:28 AM

Don't do it. No matter how good a friend. You know too much for it to ever be anything but a straw purchase.

BATFE has seminars about identifying and avoiding straw purchases, so folks like you can keep their FFL's and stay out of jail.

Boogaloo 12-01-2012 10:35 AM

Thanks for all of the well thought out and courteous replies gents. I genuinely appreciate the feedback.

I have not been at this long enough to know all of the in's and outs, so like I mentioned, I am not too proud to reach out and ask.

We are all on the same team here, and should all have a common goal, which in my opinion is to get as many new people interested in shooting sports, and their own self defense as we can. Some of us may compete with each other for sales, but that is ok. The main direction (for me at least), is to turn "anti's" into "pro's". Then and only then, will we start to turn the tide in this horribly regulated state.


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