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-   -   In-person dealer-to-dealer transfer (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=646103)

Toby's Tactical 11-19-2012 12:49 PM

In-person dealer-to-dealer transfer
 
Does anyone know the law on dealer-to-dealer transfers in-person? For example, a local shop has a difficult to find firearm that I'd like to buy from them in order to re-sell to my customer. I think that because all licensed activities must be done from my licensed location that if I walked into that shop to buy the firearm, I'd be violating the law. Seems silly for the dealer to have to ship to my place that is 5 minutes away.

mej16489 11-19-2012 1:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toby's Tactical (Post 9752826)
Does anyone know the law on dealer-to-dealer transfers in-person? For example, a local shop has a difficult to find firearm that I'd like to buy from them in order to re-sell to my customer. I think that because all licensed activities must be done from my licensed location that if I walked into that shop to buy the firearm, I'd be violating the law. Seems silly for the dealer to have to ship to my place that is 5 minutes away.

I'm not an FFL.

I think that's only for delivering items you've sold. I think you can acquire inventory anywhere...even out of state.

Toby's Tactical 11-19-2012 3:19 PM

That's quite the contrary to what I've heard but I'm looking for anyone with experience in the matter or knowledge of law that permit or disallow this.

halifax 11-20-2012 6:07 AM

CFLC letter and a signed copy of your FFL and you're good to go.

tenpercentfirearms 11-20-2012 7:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toby's Tactical (Post 9752826)
Does anyone know the law on dealer-to-dealer transfers in-person? For example, a local shop has a difficult to find firearm that I'd like to buy from them in order to re-sell to my customer. I think that because all licensed activities must be done from my licensed location that if I walked into that shop to buy the firearm, I'd be violating the law. Seems silly for the dealer to have to ship to my place that is 5 minutes away.

There is no law. Whether they ship it to you or you take delivery in person, the firearm gets signed into the A&D book the exact same way. I transfer firearms in person all the time with other FFLs.

Toby's Tactical 11-20-2012 7:56 AM

What about the law that says business must be conducted at the licensed location? I guess that would prevent FFL's from going to the common carriers to mail guns, or from transporting guns between shop and warehouse. So there must be some allowance for this kind of thing. Looking for any Penal Code just in case.

tenpercentfirearms 11-20-2012 8:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toby's Tactical (Post 9758038)
What about the law that says business must be conducted at the licensed location? I guess that would prevent FFL's from going to the common carriers to mail guns, or from transporting guns between shop and warehouse. So there must be some allowance for this kind of thing. Looking for any Penal Code just in case.

What about that law? Post it up for us to read.

Toby's Tactical 11-20-2012 10:19 AM

Penal Code
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms (Post 9758271)
What about that law? Post it up for us to read.

The code is as follows:
Quote:

Penal Code 12071.
(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements:
(1)(A) Except as provided in paragraphs (B) and (C), the business shall e conducted only in the buildings designated in the license.
(B) A person licensed pursuant to subdivision (a) may take possession of firearms and commence preparation of registers for the sale, delivery, or transfer of firearms at gun shows or events, as defined in Section 478.100 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor, if the gun show or event is not conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. A person conducting business pursuant to this subparagraph shall be entitled to conduct business as authorized herein at any gun show or event in the state without regard to the jurisdiction within this state that issued the license pursuant to subdivision (a), provided the person complies with (i) all applicable laws, including, but not limited to, the waiting period specified in subparagraph (A) of paragraph (3), and (ii) all applicable local laws, regulations, and fees, if any. A person conducting business pursuant to this subparagraph shall publicly display his or her license issued pursuant to subdivision (a), or a facsimile thereof, at any gun show or event, as specified in this subparagraph. (C) A person licensed pursuant to subdivision (a) may engage in the sale and transfer of firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, at events specified in subdivision (g) of Section 12078, subject to the prohibitions and restrictions contained in that subdivision. A person licensed pursuant to subdivision (a) also may accept delivery of firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, outside the building designated in the license, provided the firearm is being donated for the purpose of sale or transfer at an auction or similar event specified in subdivision
The only other location allowed is at gun shows. So what if I have to go to the post office to mail a firearm? Or call a distributor to order a firearm when I'm not at my licensed location?
Quote:

27 CFR 478.100 - Conduct of business away from licensed premises.(a)(1) A licensee may conduct business temporarily at a gun show or event as defined in paragraph (b) if the gun show or event is located in the same State specified on the license: Provided, That such business shall not be conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. The premises of the gun show or event at which the licensee conducts business shall be considered part of the licensed premises. Accordingly, no separate fee or license is required for the gun show or event locations. However, licensees shall comply with the provisions of ? 478.91 relating to posting of licenses (or a copy thereof) while conducting business at the gun show or event.
(2) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location.
(b) A gun show or an event is a function sponsored by any national, State, or local organization, devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms, or an organization or association that sponsors functions devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community.
(c) Licensees conducting business at locations other than the premises specified on their license under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall maintain firearms records in the form and manner prescribed by subpart H of this part. In addition, records of firearms transactions conducted at such locations shall include the location of the sale or other disposition, be entered in the acquisition and disposition records of the licensee, and retained on the premises specified on the license.

kemasa 11-20-2012 12:05 PM

What is meant by business is different than you think. I called the person I know at the BATF to confirm this. Conducting business is doing the transfers of a firearm to a non-licensee, not licensee to licensee transfers.

Toby's Tactical 11-20-2012 3:03 PM

OK. Most dealers I deal with locally said no problem. But one said they wouldn't transfer to me in-person so it got me on the hunt for the code. They can still refuse to do so if they want to make that business decision but I wanted to make sure that was their choice, not the law. How does this apply out of state? For example, can I pick up some firearms in Reno if I do so in person. I'm driving there for the Thanksgiving weekend and some firearms are easy to obtain there.

tenpercentfirearms 11-20-2012 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toby's Tactical (Post 9758867)
(2) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location.

I wonder if there is something else BATFE that shows this is not just for C&R, but for all licensee business.

I have picked up guns in Wyoming and drove them to the shop. They go in the bound book just the same as if they came from UPS or from my car.

eltee 11-21-2012 8:06 PM

Still, I have a question about the CFLC. If I go to an out of state dealer and we do an FFL to (California) FFL face-to-face transfer, is Cal. DOJ/BOF going to consider it as not in compliance with their CFLC rule? I know no "shipping" is involved but I wanted to be sure.

Toby's Tactical 11-21-2012 10:37 PM

Problem solved
 
So I answered my question by buying a firearm at a shop in Reno. They just wanted to see my FFL and Resale Certificate (Tax), and I walked out with a pistol. One of the employees called his buddy at the ATF who said it was no problem to do a dealer transfer over-the-counter. @Eltee, we did a CFLC just as required with any transfer to a CA dealer.

Both dealers in Reno that I talked to said I could buy anything I wanted and that California Legality and what I did with my purchase was my problem.

kemasa 11-23-2012 9:10 AM

It does not matter if there is no shipping involved, you still need a CFLC letter from that dealer. If/when you get inspected by the CA DOJ, you had better be able to show the numbers or that it did not come from a FFL.


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