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-   -   Helping my mom ULCC (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=644769)

Dantedamean 11-15-2012 8:39 PM

Helping my mom ULCC
 
ok so my mom is going to start ULCC, she recently got a DV restraining order and is in fear of retaliation.

So, I am looking into all the laws and pulling my hair out lol I am also putting together a printout for her with quotes from different PC in case of a misinformed LEO.

Here is what I have so far:

PC 626.9
a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
....
(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law.


PC 16850
As used in Sections 17740, 23925, 25105, 25205, and 25610,
in Article 3 (commencing with Section 25505) of Chapter 2 of Division
5 of Title 4, and in Chapter 6 (commencing with Section 26350) of
Division 5 of Title 4, "locked container" means a secure container
that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination
lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked container" does not
include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle.

PC 16860
As used in Sections 16850, 25105, and 25205, "locking device"
means a device that is designed to prevent a firearm from
functioning and, when applied to the firearm, renders the firearm
inoperable.


26405. Section 26400 does not apply to, or affect, the carrying
of an unloaded firearm that is not a handgun in any of the following
circumstances:

(c) When the firearm is either in a locked container or encased
and it is being transported directly between any place
places where a person is not prohibited from
possessing that firearm and the course of travel shall include only
those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably
necessary under the circumstances.


am I forgetting anything?

thanks.

Invisible_Dave 11-15-2012 8:41 PM

All due respect but, I see this ending poorly...

SilverTauron 11-15-2012 9:27 PM

Unfortunately, LUCC ( locked unloaded concealed carry) is an ineffective means of self defense. I hold a CCW permit and carry daily, and must thus state that even with a loaded pistol on my hip in certain cases I'd be unable to defend myself. LUCC presents a problem because any situation which allows you mother enough time to unlock, load, chamber, and shoot is enough time to withdraw and dial 911.
This point is important considering that after any live fire defensive incident the citizen WILL have to justify their actions in court.

stix213 11-15-2012 9:32 PM

LUCC may be useful in a mass shooting situation (where you may need a firearm for self defense, but are not necessarily the primary target), but unlikely to be useful for immediate self defense when you are the specific target. I've timed myself with my own setup and it takes me 8 seconds from reaching for it to loaded/cocked. Too slow if facing a crazy person with a knife or gun after you.

I'd tell her to get a taser or other personal defense device that allows for unpermitted "loaded" concealed carry.

Sir Stunna Lot 11-16-2012 2:08 AM

i agree with all the above about talking your mom out of LUCC, key reasons:

Training: how much firearm experience does she have? can she safely unload it while blind folded, hanging upside down? how much range time does she have? you have to remember that your intention is to keep her safe. if you dont have confidence in her skill and ability, its best to keep the gun away from her before she gets hurt by her own gun

Practicalilty: those of us who carries everyday, we struggle enought to shave seconds of our draw-to-shoot speed. in the event that she faces someone and wants to use her gun, it will take WAY to long for anyone to go through the process of unlocking and loading the gun. like mentioned before, its more of a last option tool in case of a mass shooting where you have "some" time to actually go through the entire loading process.

vladbutsky 11-16-2012 8:13 AM

Come on guys! Of cause there are situations when even LCC will not be enough to protect yourself. But this is not a reason to completely give up and to leave gun at home. Sure, LCC is a MUCH better option IF it is available. What if it is not?!...
Yes, if you are attacked and struggling to fight of the aggressor, ULCC will not be much useful. But this is not the only type of attack. Sometimes victim does see the attack coming from a distance. Sometimes victim may be able to lock herself into a bathroom or a closet or a car before attacker gets to her. It will not give you protection, but will give you enough time to get ready.
We all agree here: LCC is better and ULCC is not perfect. But if legal LCC is not an option, would you still prefer ULCC to being unarmed?

To answer the OP question, read here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...71&postcount=1

Dantedamean 11-16-2012 9:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vladbutsky (Post 9734277)
Come on guys! Of cause there are situations when even LCC will not be enough to protect yourself. But this is not a reason to completely give up and to leave gun at home. Sure, LCC is a MUCH better option IF it is available. What if it is not?!...
Yes, if you are attacked and struggling to fight of the aggressor, ULCC will not be much useful. But this is not the only type of attack. Sometimes victim does see the attack coming from a distance. Sometimes victim may be able to lock herself into a bathroom or a closet or a car before attacker gets to her. It will not give you protection, but will give you enough time to get ready.
We all agree here: LCC is better and ULCC is not perfect. But if legal LCC is not an option, would you still prefer ULCC to being unarmed?

To answer the OP question, read here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...71&postcount=1

Thank you, finally.
I'm always amazed on this forum at how many so called progun guys are completely against someone carrying a weapon. The point of this thread got completely lost.

ruchik 11-16-2012 11:44 AM

I agree. While it's not the most efficient method of carry, LUCC does give you certain options. More options concerning situations where your life may be at risk is always better. And the gun could always be part of a get home bag/kit, too. Doesn't necessarily HAVE to be just for the purposes of immediate self-defense. Again, more options.

I think the point others are driving at is your mother shouldn't rely on LUCC as her primary means of self-defense. It's too slow for that purpose. Make sure she realizes that its a measure of absolute last resort ONLY if she has time, and even then ONLY if she has nowhere left to hide or run.

jrwhitt 11-16-2012 11:55 AM

Does the issue if a restraining order provide grounds for requesting an LTC ? May help depending on the County

paul0660 11-16-2012 11:58 AM

Quote:

Too slow if facing a crazy person with a knife or gun after you.
The odds ARE enormous. Because of that, for every 50 rounds I shoot, I practice the fetal position for 5 minutes. The other members are used to it now, some join me.

zhyla 11-16-2012 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dantedamean (Post 9734565)
Thank you, finally.
I'm always amazed on this forum at how many so called progun guys are completely against someone carrying a weapon. The point of this thread got completely lost.

By all means read thru that post (and there's another one... somewhere). The short answer is now that OC is illegal LUCC is of questionable legality in the general case. It's certainly legal in your vehicle and between your house and your vehicle.

You may want to consider adding pepper spray to the arsenal since it can be carried everywhere.

Dantedamean 11-16-2012 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrwhitt (Post 9735499)
Does the issue if a restraining order provide grounds for requesting an LTC ? May help depending on the County

She tried. The dudes a retired LEO, so it's been a ***** just to get anyone to help us. This is the 3rd restraining order in 2 years. No matter how many times he violates them and no matter what threats he makes, most of the mentality we get is: come back when he tries to kill you. It's really getting annoying. I live in glendora, she was denied a CCW once already. I told her to try again but she is discouraged.

Now that he is escalating I just want my mom to have all the options available to her. I've trained her in krav maga, I've started training her in knife fighting and I've taught her how to shoot.

jrwhitt 11-16-2012 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dantedamean (Post 9735603)
She tried. The dudes a retired LEO, so it's been a ***** just to get anyone to help us. This is the 3rd restraining order in 2 years. No matter how many times he violates them and no matter what threats he makes, most of the mentality we get is: come back when he tries to kill you. It's really getting annoying. I live in glendora, she was denied a CCW once already. I told her to try again but she is discouraged.
.

I'd suggest placing that information in front of the Judge who granted the order and see if he can help. Sounds like the investment in a DV/Family practice Lawyers time would also be worth investigating. 3 Orders in 2 years means something isnt being followed through on.

Dantedamean 11-16-2012 1:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrwhitt (Post 9735658)
I'd suggest placing that information in front of the Judge who granted the order and see if he can help. Sounds like the investment in a DV/Family practice Lawyers time would also be worth investigating. 3 Orders in 2 years means something isnt being followed through on.

The judge is part of the problem.
She's in the category of come back when he tries to kill you. I'm amazed she granted the new TRO.

Edit: oh and she has about 60k of unpaid attorney fees because the divorce was drug out for 2 years. There is no money to higher a lawyer.

Glock22Fan 11-16-2012 2:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vladbutsky (Post 9734277)
Come on guys! Of cause there are situations when even LCC will not be enough to protect yourself. But this is not a reason to completely give up and to leave gun at home. Sure, LCC is a MUCH better option IF it is available. What if it is not?!...
Yes, if you are attacked and struggling to fight of the aggressor, ULCC will not be much useful. But this is not the only type of attack. Sometimes victim does see the attack coming from a distance. Sometimes victim may be able to lock herself into a bathroom or a closet or a car before attacker gets to her. It will not give you protection, but will give you enough time to get ready.
We all agree here: LCC is better and ULCC is not perfect. But if legal LCC is not an option, would you still prefer ULCC to being unarmed?

To answer the OP question, read here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...71&postcount=1

I totally agree.

The first rule of a gunfight is have a gun. OK, maybe the law restricts how fast you can get it into action, and that might negate some utility, but leaving it at home negates all utility.

"Oh, if you can't cater for every circumstance, don't bother to cater for anything?" is what some of you are saying.

Californio 11-16-2012 2:25 PM

I would rather have a loaded accessible "Taser and Pepper Spray" than a LUCC.

Glock22Fan 11-16-2012 2:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Californio (Post 9736284)
I would rather have a loaded accessible "Taser and Pepper Spray" than a LUCC.

Or both.

I think it is up to the individual to choose their own comfort level with all this. Tasers are not much use against more than one attacker, and pepper spray can be hit and miss.

Curley Red 11-16-2012 2:57 PM

I want to know where she is going to get training to pull out that locked gun, unlock it, load it, then get off a shot. If you do not have proper training for this exact type of situation, you will make things worse if she has to rely on that firearm that is unloaded and locked.

Dantedamean 11-16-2012 3:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curley Red (Post 9736441)
I want to know where she is going to get training to pull out that locked gun, unlock it, load it, then get off a shot. If you do not have proper training for this exact type of situation, you will make things worse if she has to rely on that firearm that is unloaded and locked.

Ok, this is getting tiring.

First, not what this thread is about at all. I don't know how to be any clearer. This is not posted in the general gun asking about the idea of doing this. It is posted in the legal section trying to talk about the legality and PC of LUCC.

Second, I've already addressed what your saying... Read before you post. Not constructive at all and not on topic,

d4v0s 11-16-2012 3:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dantedamean (Post 9736013)
The judge is part of the problem.
She's in the category of come back when he tries to kill you. I'm amazed she granted the new TRO.

Edit: oh and she has about 60k of unpaid attorney fees because the divorce was drug out for 2 years. There is no money to higher a lawyer.

I went through a similar situation with an active duty Police officer and Swat team member. Every single person on the force I talked to basically told me to "document everything and hope your family isnt killed when he finally snaps".

Instead I went to the FBI... Nothing happened, he still continues to rape and beat this woman regularly and is on an insane power trip. Dont really care anymore as the woman turned out to be a disgusting pile of crap deserving of the life she chose to run back too.

Interestingly enough he still works for Ventura PD. I will never trust that department again, the Ventura Sheriffs Department are the only people I talk to now. Sadly because of political pressure they couldnt get involved either.

This man had active duty officers following his ex-wife, threatening her, pulling her over and harrasing her. He stalked her regularly and even had traces run on peoples license plates whenever she was over at their home. A grotesque violation of the powers trusted to him.

You want my advice, if you read some more laws there is a clause that states you can carry when you are in fear of your life. DO NOT **** AROUND WITH YOUR MOMS LIFE, GET HER TRAINING AND A GUN AND **** THE STATE

HighLander51 11-16-2012 3:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dantedamean (Post 9731920)
ok so my mom is going to start ULCC, she recently got a DV restraining order and is in fear of retaliation.


am I forgetting anything?

thanks.

Yes, the obvious, have her apply for a CCW. A domestic is gold almost anywhere for just cause.

Glock22Fan 11-16-2012 4:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighLander51 (Post 9736768)
Yes, the obvious, have her apply for a CCW. A domestic is gold almost anywhere for just cause.

I think he already said she was turned down.

HighLander51 11-16-2012 4:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glock22Fan (Post 9736884)
I think he already said she was turned down.

I didn't see that in his post?

SilverTauron 11-16-2012 7:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dantedamean (Post 9736626)
Ok, this is getting tiring.

First, not what this thread is about at all. I don't know how to be any clearer. This is not posted in the general gun asking about the idea of doing this. It is posted in the legal section trying to talk about the legality and PC of LUCC.

Second, I've already addressed what your saying... Read before you post. Not constructive at all and not on topic,

Just because something is legal does not make that course of action WISE.

I've been witness to domestic violence issues. Your mom won't have any time to grab a set of keys, unlock a lockbox, load a mag, chamber a round, and shoot before the attacker lands a blow. Most attacks take place inside of 21 feet , and at that distance even a 65 year old man can cover the gap in 1.5 seconds. A 250lb guy tried to assault me from a distance of 21 feet last year, and I had to literally run backwards during the draw to keep distance. That's with a loaded pistol , safety off & a hot chamber!


In the remote event of a spree shooter, your mom is best advised to get the heck out of dodge as Plan #1. Im not trying to deflate your intentions, but the laws in your state are quite clear on the point that unlicensed people are not permitted to be armed with a ready to employ weapon!.


Note, theres a serious drawback to LUCC-and it is that the weapon cannot be physically controlled by the owner at all times. A gun on the hip that's concealed is mighty hard to seize. Purses and bags are stolen all the time, however.

And then we come to the social costs. Your mom's friends might wonder why she's carrying this locked box everywhere. Normal people don't carry black boxes with locks on them everywhere , and laypeople will not be impressed when she says it contains a weapon! Even a lie doesn't help, because a locked box is a natural object of curiosity.

All of that verbiage is to say, LUCC is like kissing your sister-you deal with serious drawbacks in exchange for a nigh-worthless benefit.

Liberty1 11-16-2012 7:47 PM

http://www.bagmaster.com/cart/56/Fan...Belt+Packs.htm bagmaster on a belt with simple two combo lock with unloaded auto loading pistol, loaded mag in off hand pocket or pouch, practice, practice, practice while running away from the 'threat'. Have other options like spray and or taser available. Read "how to own a gun and stay out of jail".

Contact the CGF regarding her denial, she sounds like an EXCELLENT plaintiff for a future case once case law is established. Consider moving to a Kern County residence for a LTC (doesn't mean she can't still spend time where she's at).

Liberty1 11-16-2012 7:54 PM

She needs to move and change jobs if the threat is real. Who won't do anything; the police or the DA? If the police are talking her out of criminal reports call a supervisor and make complaints. Call the DAs office and make complaints. Push for prosecution etc...

ROs are just pieces of paper as we all know. She needs to change her life so he can't find her sadly.

ElDub1950 11-16-2012 7:59 PM

several states have an emergency ccw permit .. not us of course

Meplat1 11-16-2012 8:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighLander51 (Post 9736982)
I didn't see that in his post?

Read post #12.

Meplat1 11-16-2012 9:01 PM

HOW MANY MISDEMEANORS/WEEK DOES A PERSON COMMIT
 
If the pistol is registered to her, and if your mom is not a known gang member, loaded CCW is a misdemeanor on a first offence. I’m just sayin………………………… I’m not giving legal advice here and IANAL, but If I truly feared for mom’s safty…………………….? ;)

lilro 11-17-2012 12:56 AM

Judged by 12 or carried by 6....Considering the DV and 3 restraining orders, I'd take those odds. Plus, as mentioned, first offense is a misdemeanor. This is what I would do, can't really give advice to break the law.

vladbutsky 11-17-2012 6:53 AM

Try this one: http://www.511tactical.com/All-Produ...tol-Pouch.html
with: http://www.amazon.com/Master-Lock-46...ks+for+luggage
There is a small zipped pocket that allows to hide the lock so your ULCC does not draw any attention.
It is relatively easy to draw from.
And if you see that something serious is about to start you can always decide reduce your drawing time by discretely removing the lock or even loading the gun. It all depends on the situation.

Dantedamean 11-17-2012 8:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vladbutsky (Post 9739923)
Try this one: http://www.511tactical.com/All-Produ...tol-Pouch.html
with: http://www.amazon.com/Master-Lock-46...ks+for+luggage
There is a small zipped pocket that allows to hide the lock so your ULCC does not draw any attention.
It is relatively easy to draw from.
And if you see that something serious is about to start you can always decide reduce your drawing time by discretely removing the lock or even loading the gun. It all depends on the situation.

Ya that's the lock we got. It's actually a very good lock for what she needs. Right now she's using a laptop case. I'll have her look at those bags though.
Thanks.

donny douchebag 11-17-2012 8:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4v0s (Post 9736701)
....You want my advice, if you read some more laws there is a clause that states you can carry when you are in fear of your life. DO NOT **** AROUND WITH YOUR MOMS LIFE, GET HER TRAINING AND A GUN AND **** THE STATE

^ At least someone gets it. If she's worried about the legalities she's not afraid of him enough to start packin'.

supersonic 11-17-2012 9:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4v0s (Post 9736701)
I went through a similar situation with an active duty Police officer and Swat team member. Every single person on the force I talked to basically told me to "document everything and hope your family isnt killed when he finally snaps".

Instead I went to the FBI... Nothing happened, he still continues to rape and beat this woman regularly and is on an insane power trip. Dont really care anymore as the woman turned out to be a disgusting pile of crap deserving of the life she chose to run back too.

Interestingly enough he still works for Ventura PD. I will never trust that department again, the Ventura Sheriffs Department are the only people I talk to now. Sadly because of political pressure they couldnt get involved either.

This man had active duty officers following his ex-wife, threatening her, pulling her over and harrasing her. He stalked her regularly and even had traces run on peoples license plates whenever she was over at their home. A grotesque violation of the powers trusted to him.

You want my advice, if you read some more laws there is a clause that states you can carry when you are in fear of your life. DO NOT **** AROUND WITH YOUR MOMS LIFE, GET HER TRAINING AND A GUN AND **** THE STATE

^^^ +100%. I personally know someone in an area that issues LTC and this person was denied despite NOT being a prohibited person (no FELONIES or CONVICTIONS of ANY KIND in their LIFE. EVER!).. That person packs concealed locked & loaded every single day after that slap in the face. Look at it this way: If the concealed handgun is legally registered in your name (and you are even caught with it - when was the last time you were actually searched if you are a law-abiding citizen?;)), it is only a misdemeanor anyway, so you would not even become a felon if you actually had to use the weapon in a clear-cut, justified situation. And you may very well lose your gun. Sounds a WHOLE lot better to me than being murdered, dontcha' think? I totally agree with the above (especially after reading the poster's circumstances): F**K THE STATE. That's all there is to it. Some of us would rather risk a misdemeanor than risk their kids losing their parent(s) forever.;)

Meplat1 11-17-2012 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vladbutsky (Post 9739923)
Try this one: http://www.511tactical.com/All-Produ...tol-Pouch.html
with: http://www.amazon.com/Master-Lock-46...ks+for+luggage
There is a small zipped pocket that allows to hide the lock so your ULCC does not draw any attention.
It is relatively easy to draw from.
And if you see that something serious is about to start you can always decide reduce your drawing time by discretely removing the lock or even loading the gun. It all depends on the situation.

Two questions. Can TSA open those locks? And why would you label a covert carry bag with 5.11? 5.11 screams GUN!

gunsandrockets 11-17-2012 11:40 AM

Nice, but no dice
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Liberty1 (Post 9738138)
She needs to move and change jobs if the threat is real. Who won't do anything; the police or the DA? If the police are talking her out of criminal reports call a supervisor and make complaints. Call the DAs office and make complaints. Push for prosecution etc...

ROs are just pieces of paper as we all know. She needs to change her life so he can't find her sadly.

If moving was a practical option, I doubt this thread would even exist. I think it is safe to presume the OP took that option into account.

If moving is an option, go to Arizona for constitutional-carry.

gunsandrockets 11-17-2012 11:48 AM

Look what this miserable state drives people to
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by supersonic (Post 9740485)
^^^ +100%. I personally know someone in an area that issues LTC and this person was denied despite NOT being a prohibited person (no FELONIES or CONVICTIONS of ANY KIND in their LIFE. EVER!).. That person packs concealed locked & loaded every single day after that slap in the face. Look at it this way: If the concealed handgun is legally registered in your name (and you are even caught with it - when was the last time you were actually searched if you are a law-abiding citizen?;)), it is only a misdemeanor anyway, so you would not even become a felon if you actually had to use the weapon in a clear-cut, justified situation. And you may very well lose your gun. Sounds a WHOLE lot better to me than being murdered, dontcha' think? I totally agree with the above (especially after reading the poster's circumstances): F**K THE STATE. That's all there is to it. Some of us would rather risk a misdemeanor than risk their kids losing their parent(s) forever.;)

The only problem with this advice is what if the goblin finds out about it? As a cop he could easily have her disarmed, all nice and legal, by using his cop buddies.

If it wasn't for that factor, I would have to agree that illegal carry is the most practical solution. But as I pointed out, that is off the table due to the circumstances. No doubt something the OP already took into account.

Yep, ULCC is the only option for carrying a firearm as long as she remains in California.

Meplat1 11-17-2012 3:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunsandrockets (Post 9741296)
The only problem with this advice is what if the goblin finds out about it? As a cop he could easily have her disarmed, all nice and legal, by using his cop buddies.

If it wasn't for that factor, I would have to agree that illegal carry is the most practical solution. But as I pointed out, that is off the table due to the circumstances. No doubt something the OP already took into account.

Yep, ULCC is the only option for carrying a firearm as long as she remains in California.

You have a point, however I don’t see how you can assume this guys buddies will not disarm her if she goes ULCC. It’s not magic it’s just slower and more obvious.

Meplat1 11-17-2012 3:48 PM

There seem to be folks here that have the most fertile imaginations when thinking up reasons why something won’t work but are totally clueless to help figure out how to make it work.

stator 11-17-2012 5:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Stunna Lot (Post 9733588)
Training: how much firearm experience does she have? can she safely unload it while blind folded, hanging upside down? how much range time does she have? you have to remember that your intention is to keep her safe. if you dont have confidence in her skill and ability, its best to keep the gun away from her before she gets hurt by her own gun

So should she leave her firearm at home and be without it in a life threatening situation and die? I always wonder why people tend to post that leaving it at home is better until some undescribed level of training is reach.

What would be the appropriate level of training and who gets to determine that? You, me, Obama, or the Brady Campaign? How would we trust those that set the training requirements are free from ulterior motives?


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