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-   -   Lead vs Copper Jacket (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=644665)

Lexington-1 11-15-2012 5:23 PM

Lead vs Copper Jacket
 
Gent

I'm new to rimfire.

I went to purchase my first box of ammo. I asked the store owner his recommendation. He said I should avoid lead ammo and buy copper jacket instead. He said that lead tends to leave residue in your barrel. Eventually the build up will start to effect accuracy. Even with cleaning, he said you can never completely get rid of the lead in the rifling groves and that I would save myself a lot of headaches down the road by sticking to copper jackets?

I'd like to hear your opinion as to weather this is good advice or not.

Thanks

Izzy43 11-15-2012 6:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexington-1 (Post 9730422)
Gent

I'm new to rimfire.

I went to purchase my first box of ammo. I asked the store owner his recommendation. He said I should avoid lead ammo and buy copper jacket instead. He said that lead tends to leave residue in your barrel. Eventually the build up will start to effect accuracy. Even with cleaning, he said you can never completely get rid of the lead in the rifling groves and that I would save myself a lot of headaches down the road by sticking to copper jackets?

I'd like to hear your opinion as to weather this is good advice or not.

Thanks

Assuming you are talking about .22lr there is no such thing as a copper jacketed .22lr round. All are lubricated in some fashion one of which is a copper wash (chemical process) that serves as a cheap lubricant. Under the lube is lead. All and I mean all match grade .22lr ammo has a lead bullet lubed by some type of wax, or tallow or some proprietary mixture of different substances. None are copper washed. I have shot over 40,000 rounds of lead bullets thru various rifles and pistolas with only one leading problem. That was when I shot some 22lr rounds in the cylinder meant for .22Magnums in my revolver. Dumb mistake on my part but it really leaded up the cylinder and barrel.

In short I think the store owner who you spoke to is weak on his information about .22lr ammo. Nearly all bulk ammo is copper washed and the reason for that is its a cheap way to apply a lubricant to the bullet. However I have read where some semi-auto rifles and pistols prefer the copper washed bullets as they do not gum up the actions as quickly as the lubed lead bullets.

bloodhawke83 11-15-2012 8:03 PM

So its all a lie? :confused:



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Izzy43 11-15-2012 8:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodhawke83 (Post 9731647)
So its all a lie? :confused:



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Are you asking me? If you are, copper plated is not "copper jacketed". Plating is a chemical process, copper jacketed is a thin piece of copper molded around the lead bullet..22WMR, .17HMR and the majority of center fire ammunition is copper jacketed. Copper jacketing is primarily done due to the velocity of the bullet to prevent heat generated in the barrel due to the speed to prevent the lead from melting and quickly leading the barrel. Hope that clears it up.

Chaos47 11-15-2012 8:36 PM

This comes up all the time.

"Lead" ones are not just straight up lead they are covered with wax.
99% of all match grade 22LR ammo is going to be wax coated not plated rounds.
Such as eley, you know the stuff they shoot in the Olympics thru their super accurate super expensive rifles. If wax is good enough for them its good enough for you.

IMO wax coated bullets leave less residue then plated.
But it is a highly touted myth that they are worse.

Izzy is right, there is no jacketed 22LR ammo, they are either plated or "washed" which pretty much means painted on...

All that said I run 525 Blazer Value Packs thru my 22LRs pretty much exclusively. (Other then match ammo)

ejhc11 11-15-2012 8:56 PM

The CMMG rimfire uppers are recommended by Shadow65 to run plated ammo to minimize the wax buildup in the action.

Otherwise most ammo will work fine, you only need to find out what works best in your firearm since each one shoots a little different.

I have guns that like the dreaded Remington Gold Bullets, shoots accurately and reliably while others prefer the Blazers and others Winchesters or Federals and of course all like CCI ammo, SV HV etc...

SB1964 11-15-2012 11:57 PM

Lex, Good advice given. Keep your Gun Clean & simply try different Brands & types of Ammo. Hollow Point vs Solid etc. Everyone with .22 experience will tell you what their Gun shoots best, with MATCH Shooters (generally) being very Particular, or more so anyway...

I like the Federal Bulk 38-40 Grain Hollow Points, or American Eagle (same thing)

GO HAVE SOME FUN!!!

Safety1st 11-16-2012 1:10 AM

Just get a .22 WMR. Copper jacket and more energy at 100yds than the hottest .22lr at the muzzle! Win win.

Lexington-1 11-16-2012 4:13 AM

Thanks for the clarification gents!

When he mention copper I automatically assumed he mean copper jacket instead of copper plated. I understand the difference now.

Izzy43 said: However I have read where some semi-auto rifles and pistols prefer the copper washed bullets as they do not gum up the actions as quickly as the lubed lead bullets.

Izzy, I think this may be the reason why he said I should use copper since I have a semi-auto.

Izzy43said: That was when I shot some 22lr rounds in the cylinder meant for .22Magnums in my revolver. Dumb mistake on my part but it really leaded up the cylinder and barrel.

Izzy, the guy at the shop said the very same thing to me. That some guy brought his revolver in and that it got all gummed up from using lead. Doubt it was you though. Maybe because of that experience with his customer he probably figured it was best to stay away from wax lead and just use the copper plated .22

Mail Clerk 11-16-2012 7:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexington-1 (Post 9730422)
Gent

I'm new to rimfire.

I went to purchase my first box of ammo. I asked the store owner his recommendation. He said I should avoid lead ammo and buy copper jacket instead. He said that lead tends to leave residue in your barrel. Eventually the build up will start to effect accuracy. Even with cleaning, he said you can never completely get rid of the lead in the rifling groves and that I would save myself a lot of headaches down the road by sticking to copper jackets?

I'd like to hear your opinion as to weather this is good advice or not.

Thanks

Lexington,

Wether it's lead or copper coated bullets they all foul your bore so sooner or later it's actually the muzzle of your barrel that determines bullet accuracy. In reality the bore doesn't need cleaning typically because of this. I actually only clean my bore twice per year and only pay attention to making sure the chamber and muzzle is clear of excess lead build up everytime I return home.
The bore in reality plays a small part in barrel accuracy and so based on other forums I usuall just runs a couple wet patches through and the brush in and out a couple times and dry it.

Mail Clerk

mkane 11-16-2012 1:08 PM

Not sure about the bore not being a contributor to accuracy. We have a Rock Creek 5 groove, Shilen 4 grove, Benchmark 2 groo& Shilen Octagon. They all shoot different.

fredridge 11-16-2012 2:45 PM

Something I found out recently is that our local indoor range requires the plated.

They no longer allow plain lead

Lifeon2whls 11-16-2012 3:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredridge (Post 9736376)
Something I found out recently is that our local indoor range requires the plated.

They no longer allow plain lead

I don't know why...if you shoot a plated round and are able to capture it in water/balistics gel/etc...you'd see that most of the plating is gone by the time it makes it to the target. When the round splashes on the backstop, at that point there is no difference between plated or non plated...you pretty much have the same amount of lead ended up in the range. That said, I've been able to take my finger nail and scrape off the plating on some rounds.

I never use them and never have a problem.

fredridge 11-16-2012 3:26 PM

Don't k ow either. Jus their rule.

Maybe city rule or something.

I just recently learned of a range in Commerce that closed partially because of elevated leaf levels in neighboring houses

MyOdessa 11-16-2012 9:14 PM

For high velocity .22 I prefer copper washed ones, for standard velocity I prefer lead .22.

I noticed that if I use high velocity lead .22, they leave too much lead in the barrel, while standard velocity ammo does not. I suspect that copper wash allows higher melting point, thus barrel does not lead as much with high velocity .22. Without any experimentation, just my guess, velocity is the key factor in lead vs. copper wash .22 bullets. All high quality .22 LR ammo used in Olympic competition are standard velocity.

Merc1138 11-16-2012 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredridge (Post 9736619)
Don't k ow either. Jus their rule.

Maybe city rule or something.

I just recently learned of a range in Commerce that closed partially because of elevated leaf levels in neighboring houses

OMG, they closed the range just because it's fall and leaves started falling off trees and blowing around?





:p

shadow65 11-17-2012 6:24 AM

For plinking I like Winchester or Fed copper was bulk pack.
Mini Mags burn cleaner and generally have better accuracy, depending on your barrel.

I shoot a lot of Wolf MT for accuracy.

Bare lead bullets will build up gunk on the ramp quicker than copper wash in my findings. When you are shooting hundreds of rounds, it does make a difference.

Remington subs are so bad that I can gum up and AR .22 action in one mag.
Dirty rounds also contribute to the problem.

Something else to keep in mind with the CMMG's is 36 gr. HP generally runs better than 40 gr. solids.

Dave N

donw 11-17-2012 7:43 AM

key factor is cleaning the action and chamber of residual lubricant.

i use a nylon bore brush, Hoppes #9 and a drill motor to clean the chamber.

the nylon brush does not wear the chamber and the Hoppes cleans the lube from it, thoroughly; this insures reliable feeding, extraction of the spent cartridge case, and lessens chances of FTF from residue building up to cushion the firing pin strike.

CharlesV 11-20-2012 2:48 PM

Don, not so fast! Your post reminded me of a related problem.

Inconsistent cartridge diameters seriously effect my shooting and cause failures to load and eject.

I shoot common .22s like Marlin and Ruger which seem to shoot anything. Last week i took out my Beretta .22 and Blazer bulk ammo and the gun failed on each and every round, yet ive used that ammo with success other times.

I didnt want to go back for ammo so i stayed out and hand-fed the Beretta and each round fired fine. BUT....i noticed that each round fed into the breech had a very different case diameter. Some rounds fit loosely, some ok, many had such a tight fit they either had to be forced in or rejected outright. A too-tight-fit assures failures, even for the cleanest gun in the world.

With CCI, the cyling is fine, meaning to me that there is much higher consistency and precision in cartridge-making, nevermind the grains or powder. With CCI i never had to consider this problem because i never hand-fed each cartridge wherein i would see the differences in diameter.

Most people do not hand-feed a semi-auto, they rely on the internal systems so that they never have to see what i saw. The FTFs, FTEs continue and people dont know exactly why. In other words, most guns would shoot more brands/models of ammo if all the MFRs had very precise casings--which I can see they dont. Cartridges look the same but they arent.

Izzy43 11-21-2012 8:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesV (Post 9760026)
Don, not so fast! Your post reminded me of a related problem.

Inconsistent cartridge diameters seriously effect my shooting and cause failures to load and eject.

I shoot common .22s like Marlin and Ruger which seem to shoot anything. Last week i took out my Beretta .22 and Blazer bulk ammo and the gun failed on each and every round, yet ive used that ammo with success other times.

I didnt want to go back for ammo so i stayed out and hand-fed the Beretta and each round fired fine. BUT....i noticed that each round fed into the breech had a very different case diameter. Some rounds fit loosely, some ok, many had such a tight fit they either had to be forced in or rejected outright. A too-tight-fit assures failures, even for the cleanest gun in the world.

With CCI, the cyling is fine, meaning to me that there is much higher consistency and precision in cartridge-making, nevermind the grains or powder. With CCI i never had to consider this problem because i never hand-fed each cartridge wherein i would see the differences in diameter.

Most people do not hand-feed a semi-auto, they rely on the internal systems so that they never have to see what i saw. The FTFs, FTEs continue and people dont know exactly why. In other words, most guns would shoot more brands/models of ammo if all the MFRs had very precise casings--which I can see they dont. Cartridges look the same but they arent.

That's one reason that bulk ammo is $.03-.06 round, little of any quality control. Step up to match level ammo and fewer problems. Bottom line we get what we pay for.

bohoki 11-21-2012 10:18 AM

my cmmg conversion seems to work best with cci blazer

out of the bulk packed 500+- round loose packs

for reliablility i rate them

cci blazer
winchester
federal
remington


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