Calguns.net

Calguns.net (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/index.php)
-   California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=71)
-   -   DGM Discount Gun Mart (Morena) (San Diego) "Loaded magazine is a felony..." (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=642049)

Danz la Nuit 11-09-2012 7:49 AM

DGM Discount Gun Mart (Morena) (San Diego) "Loaded magazine is a felony..."
 
Took some friends to this range the other day and they wanted to inspect our pistols & ammo, while doing so, the employee informed my friend that having his magazines loaded in his bag during transport was a felony...

I politely stated that he was incorrect, he repeated himself saying that law enforcement considers a a loaded magazine a loaded weapon...

I pointed to the calguns logo on my T-shirt and said that "these guys disagree with you", he seemed to know who the GCF was and backed off saying "that's just what we've been told"...

It seems so odd to me that employees of gun shops are so misinformed...

No matter what your job is, seems like you should strive to become an expert in that field... :rolleyes:

I wonder how many hundreds of people that guy has told that bad info to, poor people unloading their magazines before leaving the house only to reload them at the range.... lol fail.

sd_shooter 11-09-2012 8:06 AM

Gun shop guys tend to be full of FUD. Same goes for gun show vendors.

If you go to public ranges, expect to be swept, hope that you don't get shot.

Flintlock Tom 11-09-2012 9:59 AM

I have shot there and purchased guns there and each time I am given incorrect information at no extra charge. I've given up trying to correct them.
The last time I suggested researching CalGuns(dot)net the yahoo declared that if I followed "their" advice I would end up getting arrested.
I recommend that, while making your purchase, you keep your ear-muffs on.

Wherryj 11-09-2012 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flintlock Tom (Post 9690529)
I have shot there and purchased guns there and each time I am given incorrect information at no extra charge. I've given up trying to correct them.
The last time I suggested researching CalGuns(dot)net the yahoo declared that if I followed "their" advice I would end up getting arrested.
I recommend that, while making your purchase, you keep your ear-muffs on.

The good news is that IF you get arrested after precisely following CGF/CGN advice, chances are that you have a very strong case for dismissal and a very strong chance of free legal representation.

wildhawker 11-09-2012 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wherryj (Post 9690986)
The good news is that IF you get arrested after precisely following CGF/CGN advice, chances are that you have a very strong case for dismissal and a very strong chance of free legal representation.

I'd agree restated as:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wherryj (Post 9690986)
The good news is that IF you get arrested after precisely following CGF advice, chances are that you have a very strong case for dismissal and a very strong chance of free legal representation.

-Brandon

shoebox56 11-09-2012 12:51 PM

Avoid DGM, there's many other better choices in S.D. This is the same place that sold a complete lower to a 20 yr old and gave him hassle later:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ight=shoebox56

Rivers 11-09-2012 3:04 PM

I've had no problems with DGM but will make this suggestion about gun shops in general:

When given advice that you believe or know to be incorrect:

1) get the name of the person giving that info;

2) get the contact info for the person who manages or owns the store;

3) find the EXACT info that shows the advice to be incorrect (court citation, etc.) note that this does NOT include forums, "my cousin said...", etc.;

4) send a polite email with the erroneous info, name of the person who told you this with date and time, the corrected information, and why correcting that bad information is important. Note to the manager/owner that when his employees spread bad information, it reflects badly on the store and undermines consumer confidence in future purchases at that store.

If you don't get the employee's name and/or you use weak documentation to prove the information incorrect, your feedback to the store will not be taken seriously. And don't play the blame game. Be constructive and work with them to provide better quality information to their customers. We all benefit that way.

I know that as a business owner, if I received this type of valid feedback, I would follow through on it and do my best to be sure it did not happen again.

mrrsquared79 11-09-2012 9:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivers (Post 9692631)
I know that as a business owner, if I received this type of valid feedback, I would follow through on it and do my best to be sure it did not happen again.

Business owners that have this type of attitude demonstrated by you, I would go out of my way to give my business to. That being said, I or any other customer probably wouldn't even have to go out of my/their way to do business with you. :thumbsup:

hornswaggled 11-09-2012 10:15 PM

That's too bad. I shoot at DGM a lot, their new rifle range is great! And I've purchased several guns from them, good yearly parking lot sale they have.

Most of the peeps I talk to there are pretty knowledgeable. Not Parallax Tactical/Direct Action Solutions knowledgeable, but not too much FUD. I guess they're like So Cal Gun, kind of an old school gun shop and more prone to stagnant thinking and ol' fuddy duddies.

Nate 11-10-2012 5:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hornswaggled (Post 9695145)
That's too bad. I shoot at DGM a lot, their new rifle range is great! And I've purchased several guns from them, good yearly parking lot sale they have.

Most of the peeps I talk to there are pretty knowledgeable. Not Parallax Tactical/Direct Action Solutions knowledgeable, but not too much FUD. I guess they're like So Cal Gun, kind of an old school gun shop and more prone to stagnant thinking and ol' fuddy duddies.

Hopefully they don't continue to be like So Cal Gun, because they're closed now!

donw 11-10-2012 7:35 AM

attitude of a dealer is very important, too...

my son contacted a dealer in el cajon, a while back, wanting an out-of-state transfer. he was told: "No, we won't do that...it's like competeing against ourselves."

now...we will not do business there unless it's the last place that has what is wanted...

Moto 11-10-2012 7:48 AM

I don't know who I've heard more fud from, gun shop employees or police officers? Hmmmmmm

hornswaggled 11-10-2012 8:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate (Post 9695705)
Hopefully they don't continue to be like So Cal Gun, because they're closed now!

So cal was just open like 6 weeks ago, what happed?

donw 11-10-2012 9:33 AM

another thing i noticed about many gun shops and their employees and many of their clientele...they're almost, always, a former SEAL, marine, ranger, green beret, LE, etc;)...:D;)

RandyD 11-10-2012 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moto (Post 9696201)
I don't know who I've heard more fud from, gun shop employees or police officers? Hmmmmmm

Your observations are evidence that our laws are not rational. Everyone has heard the maxim that ignorance of the law is no excuse. That fundamental principle was valid when our laws were based on the common sense understanding of right and wrong. Many of the current California gun laws are based on irrational emotion, and a policy to discourage the public from engaging in activities involving firearms. Consequently, it is completely understandable that people who should know the law, don't have a complete understanding of it. This is why I do not get angry at a law enforcement officer or gun store employee that has a misunderstanding of the law.

motorhead 11-10-2012 6:37 PM

DGM, where FUD is always free.

Dreaded Claymore 11-10-2012 7:25 PM

It's a crying shame that California gun laws are so complex and irrational that even people who sell firearms for a living can't keep them straight.

I used to have no patience for these guys, but then I realized that the only reason I know what I know is that I spend more time on Calguns than anyone should.

Rivers' advice, seen above, seems really good.

bubbapug1 11-10-2012 7:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyD (Post 9696967)
Your observations are evidence that our laws are not rational. Everyone has heard the maxim that ignorance of the law is no excuse. That fundamental principle was valid when our laws were based on the common sense understanding of right and wrong. Many of the current California gun laws are based on irrational emotion, and a policy to discourage the public from engaging in activities involving firearms. Consequently, it is completely understandable that people who should know the law, don't have a complete understanding of it. This is why I do not get angry at a law enforcement officer or gun store employee that has a misunderstanding of the law.

It would be one thing if they were just not rational, but some are contradictory....and can be modified by enforcement agencies to blossom into something not intended by the original authors of the laws...such as the EPA.

Kolo589 11-10-2012 8:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donw (Post 9696124)
attitude of a dealer is very important, too...

my son contacted a dealer in el cajon, a while back, wanting an out-of-state transfer. he was told: "No, we won't do that...it's like competeing against ourselves."

now...we will not do business there unless it's the last place that has what is wanted...

I was told that by DGM too.

I went in to see if they had an specific AR in stock and they didn't, but I knew of a place online that had them in stock so I asked if they'd do an out-of-state transfer for that particular rifle and they said "We can order it for you from the manufacturer, but it'll be probably 5 or 6 months since they're back ordered. Since we're a distributor for that brand we don't do transfers for their guns from other shops."

My initial in my head reaction was "Well **** you too." I declined the offer to order it for me, thanked them for their time and walked out of the store.

I bought one pistol from them and it went relatively smoothly but beyond that I don't think I'll purchase from them again. Too much FUD and BS.

Munk 11-11-2012 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kolo589 (Post 9700259)
I was told that by DGM too.

I went in to see if they had an specific AR in stock and they didn't, but I knew of a place online that had them in stock so I asked if they'd do an out-of-state transfer for that particular rifle and they said "We can order it for you from the manufacturer, but it'll be probably 5 or 6 months since they're back ordered. Since we're a distributor for that brand we don't do transfers for their guns from other shops."

My initial in my head reaction was "Well **** you too." I declined the offer to order it for me, thanked them for their time and walked out of the store.

I bought one pistol from them and it went relatively smoothly but beyond that I don't think I'll purchase from them again. Too much FUD and BS.

I'm fine with this reasoning.

To my knowledge, If it's an FFL transfer that isn't a PPT, they can refuse it.

If they have an exclusivity agreement from a manufacturer, then they are probably going above and beyond their requirements by refusing such transfers, but are still within their rights to do so.

Does it make them look bad in my eyes? Yes, but for most customers it won't matter.

56Chevy 11-11-2012 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyD (Post 9696967)
Your observations are evidence that our laws are not rational. Everyone has heard the maxim that ignorance of the law is no excuse. That fundamental principle was valid when our laws were based on the common sense understanding of right and wrong. Many of the current California gun laws are based on irrational emotion, and a policy to discourage the public from engaging in activities involving firearms. Consequently, it is completely understandable that people who should know the law, don't have a complete understanding of it. This is why I do not get angry at a law enforcement officer or gun store employee that has a misunderstanding of the law.

Sure, it doesn't always make sense WHY the laws are made, but understanding them only requires some basic reading comprehension. sure, that's a lot to ask nowadays, but it's what's required. Just like gas is required for my car to run. If somebody won't take the time to read the law on the books, then they shouldn't start enforcing it, or telling anyone how to comply.

The employee admitted that he heard it from somebody else, and that was enough for him to run his mouth. If you don't know all of the facts, then don't say anything. I hate to say it, but I've finally joined in with the MYOB crowd.:p

Kolo589 11-11-2012 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munk (Post 9702598)
I'm fine with this reasoning.

To my knowledge, If it's an FFL transfer that isn't a PPT, they can refuse it.

If they have an exclusivity agreement from a manufacturer, then they are probably going above and beyond their requirements by refusing such transfers, but are still within their rights to do so.

Does it make them look bad in my eyes? Yes, but for most customers it won't matter.

I'm not saying they didn't have the right to refuse it, I just don't think it made much sense to do so.

$75 (or whatever the total amount for transfer and fees would be) is still more than $0 which is what they ended up getting from me. Had they had the rifle in stock I would have got it from them, and it wasn't like they had 50 sitting on the shelf and I was just trying to get it cheaper from somewhere else. I was just wanting to get it within this calendar year.

I ended up going to Parallax and building my own.

gunsandrockets 11-11-2012 12:31 PM

That's odd
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Danz la Nuit (Post 9689663)
Took some friends to this range the other day and they wanted to inspect our pistols & ammo, while doing so, the employee informed my friend that having his magazines loaded in his bag during transport was a felony...

I politely stated that he was incorrect, he repeated himself saying that law enforcement considers a a loaded magazine a loaded weapon...

I pointed to the calguns logo on my T-shirt and said that "these guys disagree with you", he seemed to know who the GCF was and backed off saying "that's just what we've been told"...

It seems so odd to me that employees of gun shops are so misinformed...

No matter what your job is, seems like you should strive to become an expert in that field... :rolleyes:

I wonder how many hundreds of people that guy has told that bad info to, poor people unloading their magazines before leaving the house only to reload them at the range.... lol fail.

How odd, considering that the last time I was in there I saw Tannerite for sale on their shelves!:facepalm:

phrogg111 11-11-2012 4:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunsandrockets (Post 9703084)
How odd, considering that the last time I was in there I saw Tannerite for sale on their shelves!:facepalm:

Tannerite is for sale everywhere in CA gun shops. It's not illegal.

If it was illegal, then gun shop owners all across the state would have been arrested already.

It doesn't cause fires unless you have something like a gas tank, or something else, that's flammable next to it.

It's an endothermic reaction. That means it sucks heat from the surrounding environment when the chemical reaction takes place. It releases gas - the bang - and water. That's all it does.

Liberty1 11-11-2012 6:45 PM

Well, he is correct if your friend is intending to commit a felony...

http://www.californiaopencarry.org/m...SD_oc_memo.pdf

Quote:

If the suspect is being charged with carrying the firearm with the intent to commit a felony (12023 PC), then a special definition of "loaded" applies. The firearm is considered "loaded" if the weapon, and ammunition capable of being fired in the weapon, are in the immediate possession of the subject (12001(j) PC).

Agro 11-11-2012 9:07 PM

I went to DGM one time, before I ever purchased a firearm. The guys behind the counter acted like they had important stuff to do while I stood there making it obvious that I was waiting for their attention. After quite some time they asked me if I needed help, I asked them about building an AR-15 (I didnt know all that I know now) and I suppose the "AR" set him off as he proceeded to be rude to me and grill me. I left thinking that there has to be an easier way to get the 411 on things. I went online, found this forum, later buy my first OLL, built it out on my own. 12 guns later here I am and I havent gone back to DGM *1* time since.

Crom 11-11-2012 9:25 PM

DGM, bought a 12 gauge on my 18th birthday from them. :)

Markinsac 11-11-2012 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liberty1 (Post 9705083)
We'll he is correct if your friend is intending to commit a felony...

http://www.californiaopencarry.org/m...SD_oc_memo.pdf

There is no P.C. 12001(j) - if there was, this is no longer in the codes.

P.C. 12001 is the section header for some of the firearms laws, and has only one sentence. The document is either incorrect or out of date.

Librarian 11-11-2012 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markinsac (Post 9706463)
There is no P.C. 12001(j) - if there was, this is no longer in the codes.

P.C. 12001 is the section header for some of the firearms laws, and has only one sentence. The document is either incorrect or out of date.

Out of date - now PC 16840 for the 'loaded' definition and 25800 for the 'intent to commit a felony' text.

CortoPasta 11-12-2012 7:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phrogg111 (Post 9704347)
Tannerite is for sale everywhere in CA gun shops. It's not illegal.

If it was illegal, then gun shop owners all across the state would have been arrested already.

It doesn't cause fires unless you have something like a gas tank, or something else, that's flammable next to it.

It's an endothermic reaction. That means it sucks heat from the surrounding environment when the chemical reaction takes place. It releases gas - the bang - and water. That's all it does.

Tannerite is most definitely illegal in Riverside county, and a high candidate for "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" elsewhere. Might want to reference these threads:
Tannerite legal warning for CA...
Riverside Co Sheriff Says Exploding Targets Illegal

Massan 11-12-2012 7:28 AM

Same place that had employees mention they liked being limited to 10 rounds. It's alright but not anything special, I rather drive to BLM.

hornswaggled 11-12-2012 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Massan (Post 9707458)
Same place that had employees mention they liked being limited to 10 rounds. It's alright but not anything special, I rather drive to BLM.

Bureau of Land Management sells guns now!

skyscraper 11-12-2012 12:21 PM

Well they work for minimum wage, so what do you expect.

skyscraper 11-12-2012 12:21 PM

Well they work for minimum wage, so what do you expect.

chillincody 11-12-2012 12:39 PM

Wasnt there a case law ( or whatever its called) about the definition of a loaded weapon that state it is not considered loaded unless the ammo is in the postion to be fired as in loaded mag loaded into magwell not just in your range bag ?? wasnt this heard and determined by the supreme courts ?

chillincody 11-12-2012 12:48 PM

nevermind I found it its called people vs Clark


People v. Clark(1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99 specifically limited 12031(g) by holding that in order to be “loaded” a firearm must have ammunition “placed into a position from which it can be fired”. The case rested on the fact that a shotgun is not loaded when shotgun shells were attached to a shotgun inside a buttstock shell carrier

kb58 11-12-2012 4:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donw (Post 9696124)
attitude of a dealer is very important, too...

my son contacted a dealer in el cajon, a while back, wanting an out-of-state transfer. he was told: "No, we won't do that...it's like competeing against ourselves."

now...we will not do business there unless it's the last place that has what is wanted...

Been told that exact phrase at Turner's...

John-Melb 11-12-2012 5:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donw (Post 9696749)
another thing i noticed about many gun shops and their employees and many of their clientele...they're almost, always, a former SEAL, marine, ranger, green beret, LE, etc;)...:D;)

If someone mentions they've been in the services, ask them what they did.

If they say some sort of special forces role, they're probably lying.

If they say the were the cook, company clerk or drove trucks, they're probably telling the truth.

If they say something like "as little as possible whilst avoiding the RSM" they're are telling the truth!

Liberty1 11-12-2012 6:32 PM

Bottom line, don't get legal advice from gun shop clerks or police...

carrywisely_ca 11-12-2012 8:05 PM

My understanding of the charged magazine is that considering it a crime is up to the officer who stops you. The law that the employee was referring to is an anti-gang law to help increase the conviction/retention rate among gang affiliated people (not sure what state/municipality it is from).


http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/De..._in_California
Ammunition or Loaded Magazines in locked containers

Ammunition may be carried in the same container as the gun – loose ammunition or ammunition in ammo boxes does not make a gun loaded, because the ammunition is NOT “placed into a position from which it can be fired”.

You may transport loaded magazines and speed loaders, so long as they are not inserted into the magazine well or cylinder of the firearm. That does not make a gun loaded, because the ammunition carried that way is NOT “placed into a position from which it can be fired”.

A loaded magazine is not the same as a loaded weapon, and possession of a weapon and a loaded magazine for that weapon does not, necessarily, mean you have a loaded weapon.

Anyone who asserts something contrary to the above 3 points is simply wrong. That does not mean you cannot be arrested by uninformed or badly trained law enforcement officer, or charged with the crime of carrying a loaded weapon by an uninformed or politically motivated prosecutor. It does mean that, if it goes to court and you have good representation, the prosecution should lose on the law. There are certain exceptions to this outlined below.

Your comfort level may lead you to do more than the law requires. Please also see Transport Restriction for Handguns for some important additional notes on transporting handguns in California.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:21 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.