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-   -   Martial arts??? (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=639155)

Mike357 11-02-2012 4:48 PM

Martial arts???
 
Greetings, I ask for the opinions of LEO's on what would be the most useful martial art and why. There is a retired sheriff deputy at the casino I work at, I asked him the same question, his answer was judo. He also told me that knowing judo or aikido could show a department that I know how to take care of myself if I were to be on my own. I want to know the most practical martial art, so that if/when the time comes for me to subdue a threat, I could do so without using a more lethal weapon.

knightstalker83 11-02-2012 4:53 PM

Shou shu martial arts, it is also known as the seven beast. Check it out

9mmepiphany 11-02-2012 8:03 PM

The closest the to the stuff they'll teach you in LE is Aikido.

The easiest to learn in Krav Maga

The most useful is Bagua

Hornetsnest 11-02-2012 8:58 PM

If you wanna learn to effectively take down suspects and control them, then I would agree with Judo being a great choice.

If you are worried about surviving and winning a knockdown-dragout fight with a suspect, I would train at an MMA gym. There you can learn to deal with being completely exhausted and defending takedowns while taking punches, kicks, knees, etc....all while looking to takedown your oppenent (suspect) and control him.

Just another opinion...for what its worth. While my opinion says you need the ability to takedown/grapple, take punches during the process, and be inshape enough not to gas out....another important aspect is your mental toughness and will to fight under adversity....rather than a specific defined "style".

gianyveedub 11-02-2012 9:02 PM

If you are in the Jail setting like me I would say Jiu Jitsu and Military Muay Thai. Both of these have come in handy. :D

USMC169 11-02-2012 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knightstalker83 (Post 9642861)
Shou shu martial arts, it is also known as the seven beast. Check it out

This. Some of the best stuff out there IMO

NastyNate 11-03-2012 12:05 AM

MCMAP:D

crazyucbr 11-03-2012 2:29 AM

BJJ works for sure especially if your not a big/strong guy. I would start there as your base. Then work on your boxing skills. There is really no one style that defeats all others.

crazyucbr 11-03-2012 2:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gianyveedub (Post 9644319)
If you are in the Jail setting like me I would say Jiu Jitsu and Military Muay Thai. Both of these have come in handy. :D

I'm curious as to what a military must Thai is? I've done both and don't see how the two connects? Is that like a must Thai except your wearing cammies and boots? I'm not being sarcastic but military have a long tradition of renaming things they adopted after its been used in the said organization.

crazyucbr 11-03-2012 2:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gianyveedub (Post 9644319)
If you are in the Jail setting like me I would say Jiu Jitsu and Military Muay Thai. Both of these have come in handy. :D

I'm curious as to what a military muay
Thai is? I've done both and don't see how the two connects? Is that like a must Thai except your wearing cammies and boots? I'm not being sarcastic but military have a long tradition of renaming things they adopted after its been used in the said organization.

Notorious 11-03-2012 3:40 AM

Depends on what you want to do. Stand up fighting arts are great, until you find out, it's not too easy to execute some of those moves when you have a 5 pound vest and 20 pound belt weighing you down while you try to move around.

Same as the grappling or control arts, such as aikido or jujitsu. When I went through, they taught us some very watered down aikijutsu or whatever it was called, that was used by the Japanese police in arrest and control techniques.

The instructor said it was enough to get us into trouble. I promptly forgot it the day after we had to demonstrate it for the test. It'll never work for the streets in a real fight with someone who is resisting you.

Learn some basics from everything. Learn the fundamentals of human body mechanics. How far and which direction each joint goes. What it takes for a joint to break. Learn some pressure points. Learn how to throw a punch, and how to take a punch. Get your conditioning up so you can stay in the fight if you get in one.

Those things are way more useful for LE than any system of martial arts, because you do not want to get into a prolonged and protracted fight at all. You want to be able to hold your own and get it done. If that means throwing a lock or hold on the guy and maintaining it through strength and endurance until he runs out of gas or backup arrives, so be it. You do not want to stand up and go toe to toe boxing and kicking with a suspect for 5 minutes. You're going to get hurt, it also looks terrible when lawsuit time comes.

Armed24-7 11-03-2012 9:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike357 (Post 9642826)
Greetings, I ask for the opinions of LEO's on what would be the most useful martial art and why. There is a retired sheriff deputy at the casino I work at, I asked him the same question, his answer was judo. He also told me that knowing judo or aikido could show a department that I know how to take care of myself if I were to be on my own. I want to know the most practical martial art, so that if/when the time comes for me to subdue a threat, I could do so without using a more lethal weapon.

To be honest, there is no "best". Choose an art that has most to do with grappling. Almost all fights you might find yourself in, goes to ground very fast. The most important things you will need are; stamina, upper body strength, and grappling skills. Trust me on this. I have been on the job for 23 years, 12 of which has been patrol.

Luckily, I have been able to avoid quite a bit of fights over the past few years thanks to the taser and pepper spray. Much of the time, those are enough to end things, but not always.

5shot 11-03-2012 10:00 AM

First and foremost the martial art has to fit you and your particular needs. It should be a well rounded art that teaches stand up and grappling techniques. It should be a art that is self defense oriented, instead of sport oriented. It should be taught realistically with moderate to full contact, and at fighting speed, after the techniques are learned. It should be taught by someone that is well qualified and experienced.
Visit any school your interested in and watch several classes. If you see or hear any of the following, mark that school off your list:
1. No contact is made when sparring, because the techniques are too deadly.
2. 1-2 year black belt program.
3. Children in the school wearing black belts
4. Senior students beating the crap out beginning students.
5. Contracts
6. Instructor who won't discuss his qualifications, or let you watch classes.
7. Young masters, 20-30 something year old high ranking instructors.
7. Emphasis on only one range of fighting, kicking, boxing, grappling, etc.
8. If something sounds or looks like B.S., it probably is.

Samuelx 11-03-2012 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike357 (Post 9642826)
Greetings, I ask for the opinions of LEO's on what would be the most useful martial art and why.

IMnshO, no "the most useful". Every art has something to offer, some (much) more than others. What are your goals in training?

There is a retired sheriff deputy at the casino I work at, I asked him the same question, his answer was judo.

Only partially agree. Judo is great and develops many important attributes but isn't "the most useful".

He also told me that knowing judo or aikido could show a department that I know how to take care of myself if I were to be on my own.

YMMV. I trained for a long time before I got hired - it didn't help at all in my hiring process.

I want to know the most practical martial art, so that if/when the time comes for me to subdue a threat, I could do so without using a more lethal weapon.

BUT are you doing it in a LE capacity or non-LE? If you can stop the threat and gain control with your empty hands, great - BUT For us in LE, I teach that intially, you're only going empty hands until you can get to a better tool - something that will allow you to make more of an effect, from further away, and lessen the chance of you getting injured.

Notorious and 5shot mentioned some important concepts/principles:

1. ranges in combat - many MA only offer 1 or maybe 2. for LE, you'd want to be as well versed in everything from long distance firearms range to ground/grappling combat

2. "liveness" in training - if you're not sparring or rolling or otherwise dynamically testing your techniques, that's no good. For LE, if you're not getting physically exhausted, punched/kicked, made to critically think/operate in high stress/adrenal situations during training, that's no good either.

3. reality - LE work can be night and day different than training in most schools or participating in competitions. Low light/no light, unfriendly surfaces or settings, weapons, defending against weapons, weapon retention, uncomfortable/restrictive clothes and gear, multiple opponents, no rules/dirty fighting, ambushes/spontaneous attacks, the possibility of getting seriously hurt or killed, taking someone's life in order to protect yours or someone else's, ETC

You also have different types of opponents/suspects in LE - some are going to be trying to kill you, some are just trying to get away, some are just plain stupid or drunk, ETC. Not everyone is a nail and you should have more than just a hammer in your tool box.

For LE, you need to develop these areas:
1. mindset
2. fight conditioning
3. skill/technique
4. proficiency/readiness with your equipment

My parent arts are JKD/FMA so I'm a big believer in 'absorbing what is useful'.

IME, no art/style/school has all the answers. In addition, what works "best" for one person may not be the "best" for another person. Go out and learn whatever you can from wherever you can and blend it for You.

judoguy 11-03-2012 8:21 PM

Judo. It is practical , proven, practiced world wide , and fairly cheapest of class cost compared to all other classes.

Judo you can actually practice going full bar while training and randori "sparring"

Teaches how to use their momentum as well so it doesn't matter if your big or small . Also teaches you how to fall.

Aikido is great but it is not a sport so you can't really spar with it without injuring someone or yourself.

Bjj is great but typically you don't want to be on the ground that long.


If your in oc I recommend ock judo in cypress , in inland empire I recommend Goltz judo in Claremont.

I am a judoka as well but I would really like to learn Krav Maga , because that isn't a sport but serious self defense

Jonathan Doe 11-03-2012 9:00 PM

I enjoyed Judo and Taekwondo.

gianyveedub 11-03-2012 9:14 PM

Sorry for the confusion with the term Military Muay Thai. It is Old Style Muay Thai with weapons involved. It was not designed for the ring and it not flashy, but it is effective. An example would be instead of kicking at the head where you leave a large part of your body exposed (ring style), you are striking lower (around mid thigh) for more power. You could also call it Old Style Muay Thai as some call it. Here is a good example:

http://youtu.be/ruZ7eeThQsk

This is from one of the senior members of Muay Thai Academy International in San Jose. If you guys like him, he has a youtube page that you can get lost in for hours. If you are interested in Old Style Muay Thai / Military Mauy Thai, PM me.

anbu_yoshi 11-03-2012 10:01 PM

There really isn't one better than the other. They all basically employ the same basic things: Defend and Attack. It depends on you're level of training and determination.

I recommend Hapkido. Carries Aikido style defensive but has traditional Judo style offensive. It's Korean soft style and highly effective. Upper ranking techniques employ advanced defensive maneuvers (sitting, knees, one arm, belt/rope, short stick/baton, cane, multi attackers using both arms, no arms, etc...).

There are 2 traditional Federations: Korea Hapkido Federation and Sin Moo Hapkido Federation. They both stem from Korea Hapkido Association which disbanded due to conflicting internal issues.

Sin Moo's founder is Ji Han-Jae, the guy from Bruce Lee's Game of Death. He is also my Master's, Master's, Master (lol) so my 5th although I am tied to Korea Hapkido Federation. My master's master stayed with the original KHA members when they created KHF. Ji Han-Jae had come to America already IIRC.

Juijutsu is basically old school Judo attached to the mainstream world. The Judo commonly known today is the sport version.

Taekwondo in combat form is effective, but it is a hard style for striking. Bruce Lee's kicks were derived from Taekwondo.

I've seen Krav Maga and it's military style. If you're out to kill, that would do it along with US Military styles.

Notorious 11-03-2012 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anbu_yoshi (Post 9649967)
Taekwondo in combat form is effective, but it is a hard style for striking. Bruce Lee's kicks were derived from Taekwondo.

Not entirely. Bruce was also influenced heavily by the stylistic but accurate kicks from Savate. You can see the Savate influences when he kicks high with his back hand raised up. That is old school traditional Savate, not TKD.

Librarian 11-03-2012 10:44 PM

As a kareteka myself, I remind participants in this thread that posts that resolve to 'your art sucks, mine is the best' are off topic.

Discussions of why you like your art, what advantage you find it may give you - those are fine.

(So far, I like Samuelx's post best.)

darcblue 11-03-2012 10:47 PM

S.P.E.A.R
 
I've never been to a class but I like what I've seen on the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RROfS6tznw

crazyucbr 11-03-2012 11:07 PM

:p
Quote:

Originally Posted by gianyveedub (Post 9649709)
Sorry for the confusion with the term Military Muay Thai. It is Old Style Muay Thai with weapons involved. It was not designed for the ring and it not flashy, but it is effective. An example would be instead of kicking at the head where you leave a large part of your body exposed (ring style), you are striking lower (around mid thigh) for more power. You could also call it Old Style Muay Thai as some call it. Here is a good example:

http://youtu.be/ruZ7eeThQsk

This is from one of the senior members of Muay Thai Academy International in San Jose. If you guys like him, he has a youtube page that you can get lost in for hours. If you are interested in Old Style Muay Thai / Military Mauy Thai, PM me.

Thanks for info... I will def look into it.

zombiescanlearn 11-04-2012 6:47 AM

Muay Thai and Kali.

anbu_yoshi 11-04-2012 7:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notorious (Post 9650092)
Not entirely. Bruce was also influenced heavily by the stylistic but accurate kicks from Savate. You can see the Savate influences when he kicks high with his back hand raised up. That is old school traditional Savate, not TKD.

shouldve been more clear. his side kick was derived from tkd. you can see various other styles in his techniques. he retained the win chung short kicks for close range.

Hands raised up can mean anything. Depends on what I'm doing. My stance consists of open rear hand raised and open front hand lowered for TKD. In HKD they're both open handed and guarding my face in a linear position. The KHF symbol is a hand making a "gun" symbol. This is due to gripping tighter with the 3 rear fingers and pointing in the direction we want the attacker to go, channeling ki if you will.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ation_logo.png

This is probably one of the better documentaries on HKD. They mention Ji Han-Jae in there too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S7g3xb44q4

honestly the best I'd recommend for op is to learn rexkwondo. if you've never heard of it, watch Napoleon Dynamite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzh9koy7b1E

LCU1670 11-04-2012 7:31 AM

When I was in the Army, the saying was if you got to hand to hand, you are already behind the curve as you lost control of the situation.

Since I retired from the Army, and I don't have the discipline to study martial arts, I simply take the Open Hand, edged weapons and Adv martial Arts at FS now and then. And stay aware so I don't get into a situation like that. If I was LEO or security, I would go to less than lethal- taser-pepper spray. Because, no matter how much YOU train MAYBE the other guy trained more, or is more motivated, or on drugs.

anbu_yoshi 11-04-2012 8:07 AM

Tony Jaa used a Hapkido Choreographer in the Ong Baak bone breaking scene. You can see a lot of the basic techniques there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BISJ77Z-1-8

As I've said before, all MA's will do the same/similar things. You just need to decide what system you prefer and what tradition you want.

mixicus 11-04-2012 8:59 AM

I agree with the above thought that there is no ultimate style. I'll throw out some generic advice that will hopefully help.

Don't (necessarily) pick a style first. Pick an instructor/school by observing/trying a few classes. Given your 'self defense' interests look for classes that use focus mits, pads, kicking shields, heavy bags and sparring/rolling as a significant part of the training. You can find good instructors in 'weak' styles that will benefit you more than a lousy instructor in a 'great' style. Find a place that seems to meet your objective and you like.

Another consideration: convenience of times and location of the gym. The easier it is for you to get there consistently, the more likely you will go train every week. That repetition is why you will develop skills. Even though a place like the Inosanto Academy maybe be outstanding if you aren't willing to haul yourself 100 miles each way twice a week, it probably won't pay off.

Unless you are going to hit a MMA gym, it will be difficult to find a top notch striking AND ground game in the same place/style. MMA places tend to have a competition mind set as opposed to defensive.

Have your BS detector switched ON. Too much mysticism or 'lethal' techniques should be a major warning sign.

Styles that tend to show up consistently to answer questions like yours have been:

Striking: Boxing, Muay Thai, JKD (can have a bit of everything)

Grappling: BJJ, Judo/Sambo, CSW (Erik Paulson's blend)

Combatives: Krav Maga, Systema,

Filipino/Indonesian MA: Silat, Kali/Escrima/Arnis

Remember a 'sport' style (i.e. boxing or BJJ) will need to be adapted to a defensive mindset.

Been a while since I been in SD but I recall some good options in the north county area. Some may fit your needs better. James Williams (Systema) is in Encintias. A long established Krav Maga group teaches out of the Jewish Community Center in the La Jolla area. For BJJ, there's a Gracie Barra in Carlsbad. Roy Harris use to have a JKD academy in SD proper (kali,silat, bjj were also taught).

Stormtrooper 11-04-2012 9:46 AM

FIST KOON DO.

Notorious 11-04-2012 10:40 AM

Glock-Fu.

Wait... Librarian, you didn't like my post #11? I'm so sad... but yeah, I will gladly concede to Samuel since that is his assignment and expertise, DT, so losing to him is nothing to be ashamed of.

Also, going back to way before any discussions of style of techniques, have you ever been in a real fight? Have you seen real fights? Have you watched people fight who had no training or had a lot of training? Did you realize that in a real fight, not in a sparring situation, a lot can be decided in split seconds with one strike and be done?

It's not like a sport match or movies, where it goes on and on and on and on. You swing and maybe get lucky, and the other guy stumbles and you pounce and it's over in 30 seconds tops, while the **** talking and pushing and puffing chests and posturing can take hours.

What I am saying is that realize the reality of a street fight and lethal encounters is nothing like what you will have to do when it comes down to it. The stuff you learn, whatever it may be, gives you some knowledge and edge, but will not give you the win. It's just like a gunfight, you can be the best in the world, the other guy just needs one lucky shot.

Green Ice Dragon 11-04-2012 10:47 AM

Keep in mind that utilizing striking skills can look really bad. If you're non-LE you WILL go to jail unless there was clearly a provable threat to your life. If you are LE and you get caught on video it will look bad. Not saying it's illegal in that case but it just looks bad. But the ones that most consider effective is Boxing and Muay Thai.

Grappling skills are generally favored. Judo and wrestling (Greco-Roman) are your best and least expensive bet. BJJ and similar arts doesn't mean you lay on your back and act like a venus-flytrap as some have implied; but there may be times when YOU get taken down and you're going to have to know what to do.

There are a couple of things to remember when choosing "style". Thanks to the boom in MMA styles like BJJ and Muay Thai have skyrocketed in price. Also, some places claim to teach a style like "Muay Thai" but do that by name only and are likely teaching some slap-toe-style.

On the topic of price: contracts aren't necessarily a bad thing because, depending on where you live, there may be a high overhead and people need to pay the bills. Sorry, but no one is working for free. If you can find a place without contracts then great!

Overall, you'll be fine with just Judo or Greco-Roman wrestling.

jkasandiego 11-04-2012 12:17 PM

Try the very basic discipline and moved up and what suits you.

Notorious 11-04-2012 3:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green Ice Dragon (Post 9652278)
Keep in mind that utilizing striking skills can look really bad. If you're non-LE you WILL go to jail unless there was clearly a provable threat to your life. If you are LE and you get caught on video it will look bad. Not saying it's illegal in that case but it just looks bad. But the ones that most consider effective is Boxing and Muay Thai.

Any use of force, by anyone, will look bad on camera.

Who cares what art you use to strike someone, it will be a punch or a kick, and that's what it will look like on camera.

Street fights are ugly by nature. Very fast, very brutal. Nothing you can do can make it look pretty or good to anyone unless you are Steven Seagal and you can intercept a punch or kick and just twist and lock the guy up and control him without further violence... and that is helped out by the choreographer and director, both of whom will not be there for you in your fight.

Do what you need to do to defend yourself, efficiently and without prolonged engagement. The longer you fight, the more likely you will get hurt.

DannyInSoCal 11-04-2012 3:44 PM

JKD - Jeet Kune Do.

Mixed with "reality based" knife fighting.

You have one of the best instructors in your backyard -

Paul Vunak.

Find him online -

Tell "Vu" that Danny Flucke sent ya...

anbu_yoshi 11-04-2012 5:45 PM

Didn't Bruce Lee disband the JKD from developing new masters? Maybe it was Kosho Kempo.

Too many. Try it and see what you like. IMO MMA places and lots of others tend to claim a lot of things.

Lots of places claim to teach Krav Maga but they're not officially recognized. The only one in Norcal is off Berkley IIRC, but lots of places place it in their ads.

Stay away from "Bros" and Meat heads. You should never be trained to be out for blood. Best way to avoid getting hurt is to avoid the fight altogether.

PhoPoweR 11-04-2012 6:15 PM

Muay Thai and Jiu Jitsu is all you need

Notorious 11-04-2012 6:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoPoweR (Post 9654665)
Muay Thai and Jiu Jitsu is all you need

Right... this is exactly the opposite of what everyone else who knows what's up is saying. Naming a style as being it.

I can see the OP trying to do Muay Thai kicks on suspect's legs and kneeing on a clinch... and then tumbling around and doing GI chokes and leg breaks... ALL IN UNIFORM WITH GEAR ON.

kayaker 11-04-2012 6:59 PM

I used to study and teach Kyokushin karate. It's no bull****, real,not flashy karate. Recently I have been interested in getting back into martial arts. I've looked into many different types and decided that I would be most interested in Japanese Jui Jistsu due to it have grappling, joint manipulation as well as striking. Brazilian JJ is great for matches but in real life you don't want the ground to be you default possition. Pretty much all of the other schools that I looked into did not look like they were teaching stuff that works when the other guy doesn't do what is expected of him.
Unfortunately I can't find a Japanese JJ Dojo within 30 miles of my home.

Notorious 11-04-2012 7:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayaker (Post 9654969)
I used to study and teach Kyokushin karate. It's no bull****, real,not flashy karate. Recently I have been interested in getting back into martial arts. I've looked into many different types and decided that I would be most interested in Japanese Jui Jistsu due to it have grappling, joint manipulation as well as striking. Brazilian JJ is great for matches but in real life you don't want the ground to be you default possition. Pretty much all of the other schools that I looked into did not look like they were teaching stuff that works when the other guy doesn't do what is expected of him.
Unfortunately I can't find a Japanese JJ Dojo within 30 miles of my home.

Kyokushin, the competition style?

You mean, the one that doesn't punch to the face, and has those flipping upside down axe kicks to the head that lands you on the ground, but hoping to knock the other guy out with the hail Mary kick... that no BS style?

Not knocking it and I know some of those guys are very tough, but it ain't street and it don't work for LE any better than any other style.

anbu_yoshi 11-04-2012 7:42 PM

with all due respect every style has a sport variation and every style will have the egoists.

they need the sport and flash to survive as a business. theres always a gimic. what you can hope for is to gain a trusting relationship with your master enough for them to teach you the more lethal techs and training. old school style isn't for pussies and most people won't go under the stress.

I mean ****. old school masters use to do crazy *** **** to their bodies, train in full contact until someone is defenseless and used real weapons. loom at their arms, knife scars.

kayaker 11-05-2012 6:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notorious (Post 9654983)
Kyokushin, the competition style?

You mean, the one that doesn't punch to the face, and has those flipping upside down axe kicks to the head that lands you on the ground, but hoping to knock the other guy out with the hail Mary kick... that no BS style?

Not knocking it and I know some of those guys are very tough, but it ain't street and it don't work for LE any better than any other style.

Competetion Kyokushin doesn't allow punches to the head because they don't use ANY padding. Full on head kicks are fine as well as full contact to the body with hands or feet. If you think that seems wimpy then you should try it sometime. I have no idea what this hail mary kick you are talking about, but hey, I only got to Nidan, maybe it's more advanced?


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