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-   -   Red Dot Failures? BUIS really necessary? (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=637066)

SoCalXD 10-28-2012 7:13 AM

Red Dot Failures? BUIS really necessary?
 
Like me, you probably have backup sights on every optic equipped rifle you own. But I was thinking... I have never seen a MilSpec quality red dot optic fail (EoTech, Aimpoint). I even have an EoTech that spent 2 years on daily patrols in Iraq that is way dented and scratched, but is still is 100% reliable.

I'm beginning to think that backup sights on a carbine that already has a milspec red-dot mounted is money and weight allocation poorly spent, especially on a civilian defense rifle.

Any thoughts on this, or any experiences with failed milspec red-dots? (excluding dead batteries, of course).

dieselpower 10-28-2012 7:25 AM

I agree to a point. There are situations where the RDS isnt going to be the best option, such as strange lighting conditions and long range shooting. If you set up for a 50 yard zero, you got to have a IS system for shots past 250 yards. For me I use a 25 yard zero and my 4 MOA dot as a size reference for targets 400 yards away. I will use my IS to aim with.

Grassninja 10-28-2012 7:56 AM

There have been plenty of accounts of eotechs failing and, to a lesser degree, aimpoints failing. The bottom line is that these are both man made objects and can fail on you at inconvenient times.

The cost depends on which BUIS you choose. Weight is negligible and really adds nothing to a gun.

Assuming the carbine is meant as more than just a range toy, I see no reason to not have irons on a carbine with RDS, and a whole lot of reasons why you should.

wtactraining 10-28-2012 8:32 AM

There have been plenty of accounts of eotechs failing and, to a lesser degree, aimpoints failing. Really? Where and when?

dieselpower 10-28-2012 8:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grassninja (Post 9606804)
There have been plenty of accounts of eotechs failing and, to a lesser degree, aimpoints failing. The bottom line is that these are both man made objects and can fail on you at inconvenient times.

The cost depends on which BUIS you choose. Weight is negligible and really adds nothing to a gun.

Assuming the carbine is meant as more than just a range toy, I see no reason to not have irons on a carbine with RDS, and a whole lot of reasons why you should.

I go back and forth with this scare tactic stuff. There is merit to this mindset, but its sorta like telling someone to avoid all trees because of lightning strikes... its not a real situation unless you are in a lightning storm.

You can pretend and play make-believe fantasy all you want, but even LEO SWAT team members are not going to be in this situation...its so remote of a chance its not even funny. The apocalyptic SHTF/WROL is pure fantasy... the actual chance of it happening is extremely remote at best and if it does the chance of your optic dieing is even more remote.

Looking at military operations requirements is not the best for civilian prepping...its not even close..no matter how much the cool guys here or on the zombie websites tell you...its all fantasy bullcrud.

I agree there is an increased chance of a $9.99 optic failing...big time. The chance of a C-More, EOTech, Aimpoint, Trijicon, or other high end optic failing during a life and death situation is very very remote...in fact its a nearly unheard of outside of the military. We are talking about 1:100,000 chance of something like that.

Older EOTechs failed all the time, Older Aimpoints failed all the time, Older C-mores failed all the time, Older Trigicons failed all the time,..ect ect ect. Due to the public having faster and greater media social coverage of these things, manufactures have stepped up the QC.

Case in point, within days of a Youtube video showing a magpul Stock failing at the range, the owner of Magpul contacted the person, gave them a new stock and from what I am told redesigned the locking release arm. There is nothing wrong with the old one, but a defect was noted and a change was made...within days of a single incident.

223556 10-28-2012 8:55 AM

It's more like batteries going down in the field. BUIS need very little maintenance to run reliable if any.
I run a A2 front base with 24/7 Night sight and Daniel Defense A1.5 Rear sight. I love it, works perfect and probably will never fail.
Yes, most RDS and mil-spec scopes are built though, but glass breaks, buttons wear out, batteries die, water kils it ( if optic is already compromised).
ALL reasons why I would have BUIS on.
Range toy is another story.....

SuperSet 10-28-2012 10:30 AM

I agree with you. They aren't necessary but a nice to have. A pair of MBUS are cheap and light weight so why not?

Clee 10-28-2012 10:40 AM

BUIS are a necessity for fighting gun. I had a catastrophic fail with my T1 during my class at CSAT. The front lens popped right off during our sighting is session. Without my BUIS I would have been screwed. If that were a gunfight, I'd probably be dead.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-R...52848%2529.JPG
BUIS are relatively cheap and light so why not just have them on. Optics fail even high quality ones, I wouldn't take the chance if that weapon is one you plan on picking up when you going to fight. If its a range gun or fun gun then I say you can leave them off.

SKSer 10-28-2012 11:08 AM

Its better to have them and not need them then to need them and not have them. I also love having BUIS too in case i take off my optic and put it back on, I can re-zero, right then and there. also vice versa with the Iron sights, i can take them off and then re install and verify Zero right away. Last time i was at the range I zeroed in my irons and then zeroed in my Optic. When i got home I realized my optic was a little crooked and the mounting nuts were loose, i must not have tightened them down all the way. when i re tightened down, When i cross verified, the red dot was a bit over to the right. if i was shooting at 100 yards it would have been off by about 12 to 14 inches. now without the BUIS, i would have to wait to get to the range again to re dial it back in. I just flipped up my rear sight clicked the dot back over to dead center on the front sightpost and 30 seconds later i was re-zeroed.

Although it may be a rare occasion that the RDS fail but it is absolutely possible. If it did, and you had iron sights, you could put your new or fixed optic back on and re-zero it right away. If its just a range gun then who cares if you have them or not. If you think there is ever a possibility that you would need to rely on it for real defense then BUIS are a cheap insurance. I used to have a stevens 200 in .308, and i remember when i first got it it didnt have a scope mounted on it, i remember thinking how worthless the gun was without it. After having it for awhile I used to think "this thing is awesome with the scope, but it used to drive me nuts thinking of if I was depending on it and the scope broke, it would go from a tack driver to a extremely short range .308. That and I also got bored with the killer accuracy, ha ha. I sold it and replaced it with converted Saiga .308. I love the fact that i have the scope on the saiga, and shoot it mainly with that for long range, but if anything happened i could take the scope off and have a perfectly functioning battle rifle with irons.

dieselpower 10-28-2012 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clee (Post 9607571)
BUIS are a necessity for fighting gun. I had a catastrophic fail with my T1 during my class at CSAT. The front lens popped right off during our sighting is session. Without my BUIS I would have been screwed. If that were a gunfight, I'd probably be dead.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-R...52848%2529.JPG
BUIS are relatively cheap and light so why not just have them on. Optics fail even high quality ones, I wouldn't take the chance if that weapon is one you plan on picking up when you going to fight. If its a range gun or fun gun then I say you can leave them off.

Yup, it happens to be sure...its just rare.

stphnman20 10-28-2012 11:10 AM

BUIS, although rarely used, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

LAKings22 10-28-2012 11:34 AM

I usually shoot with my Eotech and switch and shoot with my MBUS. I actually like shooting more with MBUS, it's more challenging and it makes me feel better when i hit the medal targets @ 200

VictorFranko 10-28-2012 11:39 AM

I'm not going to risk my life on a couple dollars worth of batteries.......

SuperSet 10-28-2012 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorFranko (Post 9607888)
I'm not going to risk my life on a couple dollars worth of batteries.......

Brother, what do you think are in those SureFire flashlights? :)

ExtremeX 10-28-2012 1:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSet (Post 9608024)
Brother, what do you think are in those SureFire flashlights? :)

Everyone knows surefire flashlights run on love…

MXRider 10-28-2012 2:07 PM

I don't see a reason good enough to not have backup sights on a rifle, so I have them on all my rifles. Sometimes I like to use the irons anyway instead of an Aimpoint.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

patriot_man 10-28-2012 2:56 PM

I have an Eotech on my main gun with my front BUIS deployed most of the time. If my Eotech happens do die on me I still have my front sight and my optic window for close range.

patriot_man 10-28-2012 2:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExtremeX (Post 9608583)
Everyone knows surefire flashlights run on love…

Panasonic CR123A's with extra Surefire "love".

VictorFranko 10-28-2012 3:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSet (Post 9608024)
Brother, what do you think are in those SureFire flashlights? :)

Are you suggesting changing batteries from a flashlight to the Eotech in the middle of a gunfight?
If the batts fail in my Eotech, I'll just flip up my Troys, thank you!

dieselpower 10-28-2012 3:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAKings22 (Post 9607861)
I usually shoot with my Eotech and switch and shoot with my MBUS. I actually like shooting more with MBUS, it's more challenging and it makes me feel better when i hit the medal targets @ 200

which medals do you shoot? The Navy's are mostly round with a few nicely designed ones. The two tone KLM should make a great target.

vintagearms 10-28-2012 3:12 PM

I dont get into gunfights anymore so I leave them off. I do carry them separately in my gun case if needed. The paper targets will have to wait. :p

EvolutionGSR 10-29-2012 6:19 AM

I dont have them on as buis, i have them on so i cant turn off the rds and shoot irons if i wanted to. Going back to irons is quite fun.

PrimaryArms 10-29-2012 6:43 AM

Irons on a gun is like a gun to a fighter jet better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it.

Dimitri

HK Dave 10-29-2012 7:24 AM

I've had an Eotech 516 fail on my before... well not exactly failed, the nitrogen purged mid range session and the reticle dimmed dramatically. Wasn't a catastrophic failure as I could still kind of see the reticle.

Kempfer 10-29-2012 1:00 PM

If you have an optic that has the auto-turn off then you probably want back up iron sights that are always in the UP position. I've had a few friends that had picked up their rifle and hit the firing line during training. When they were on the move they realized their optic was off but had to take shots anyway. On the flip side though they never shoot with irons soooo they shot like crap anyway.

JackRydden224 10-29-2012 2:04 PM

Beautiful
Useless
Iron
Sights

For those of us who plink or do this as hobby we just pack up our bags and go home or switch a rifle when the RDS fails. The way I see it BUIS are really just another piece of accessory to make the rifle look cool.

I've never been in combat so I can't say for combat situations :p

Sunday 10-29-2012 3:25 PM

I have seen top dollar scopes break. Any thing can and will break.

ExtremeX 10-29-2012 3:53 PM

That’s true. Anything mechanical can have issues, doesn’t matter how expensive it is; but when buying on the top end you do hope to have a smaller failure rates and better quality control.

SoCalXD 10-30-2012 9:03 AM

Good feedback from everyone! So, I count one first-person failure with an Aimpoint T/H-1, one partial failure observed with with an Eotech (batteries?). I also count a lot of "I like shooting with irons!". Agreed... brings back those retro Army A1/A2 memories for me.

Some of you gents mentioned "cheap insurance"... have you priced a set of Troy or KAC BUIS lately? That aint cheep! (which I guess is why I've gravitated toward pricey red-dots and plastic backup sights!).

Thanks again for the feedback and opinions.

MXRider 10-30-2012 9:19 AM

All my rifles have KAC BUIS. Worth it!

HK Dave 10-30-2012 9:37 AM

Frankly, high quality red dot sites are built tough. Same with any high end optics...

However, just like anything else mechanical, it can break.

However with the high end stuff, the breaking is pretty rare.

If your life depends on it and you're out in the sandbox, yes I'd get some kind of BUIS... if you're a plinker here in the safety of our great nation, i think you'll be ok without em. :)

bohoki 10-30-2012 3:12 PM

if you have them

murphy's law will insure you never need to use them

if you don't well a bird will probably poop on you

patriot_man 11-07-2012 10:38 PM

I know this thread is about a week old but I had to add that you should have back up irons if you plan on preparing for changing weather as well. In heavy rain you will not be able to see longer distances though your 1x sight. Best to have back up sights for this situations.

TATB 11-08-2012 4:07 PM

I don't think you need backup sights on a CIVILIAN defense carbine: you can probably hit a man-sized target within 10 yards without any sights at all, and outside that zone you would have hard time proving self-defense.
On a COMBAT carbine I would install the Dueck Defense Rapid Transition Sights, which mount at a 45° offset angle: you don't have to remove the broken optic to switch to them.

Bobby Ricigliano 11-08-2012 5:42 PM

I'd say that the very small number of carbines out there that get hard use (Mil, LE, hard use in training courses, etc) need a BUIS, just in case.

Otherwise, the vast majority of carbines that are tricked out just look cool in for photo shoots and buddy get togethers, 100 rounds per year from the bench, and regular rubdowns with a cloth diaper... Well those don't need BUIS per se....

And by the way, the Magpul BUIS is cheap, light, and reliable. I wouldn't personally drop big bucks on a BUIS when the Magpuls do the same job cheaper and lighter and just as well.

five.five-six 11-08-2012 5:44 PM

All the really cool operators have a BUIS.

OpticsPlanet 11-09-2012 10:37 AM

I believe it to be similar to a tourniquet - you may never need one, but if you DO need one, you need it REALLY badly and in a hurry.

The weight seems negligible for the potential benefits. Many new owners need something on the rifle while saving for the first optic.

Mark H.

krnrspd 11-10-2012 4:12 AM

ever tried to find N cell batteries while you are in the middle of BLM land? While my eotech may not have failed, human error prevailed. I would have been SOL if I didn't have my irons so at least I could plink.

How does the old saying go, "If 1 is good, 2 is better?"

There are countless adages we can all come up with, bottom line, it's a ~$800+ rifle, can you spare $80 and a couple of slots on your rail in between the surefire weapon light & IR laser gun p0rn to mount a couple of CYA pieces...just in case?

The War Wagon 11-10-2012 5:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalXD (Post 9606648)
Any thoughts on this, or any experiences with failed milspec red-dots? (excluding dead batteries, of course).

Seeing as how Radio Shack is likely to be closed even BEFORE the apocalypse (Obamanomics, don'tcha know... :rolleyes:), dead batteries is EXACTLY why I have BUIS.

Murphy works in electronics, too. :o

email 11-10-2012 6:33 AM

Got mud on the rds. Had gloves on with mud on them.

Pulled off rds used irons to finish.

I think it would be foolish not to have them.


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