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-   -   Just bought an M4 for SHTF got an email to not use steel cased ammo. Please help! (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=628576)

AbsoluteTruth 10-05-2012 10:31 PM

Just bought an M4 for SHTF got an email to not use steel cased ammo. Please help!
 
Hi guys I just bought a brand new Rguns M4 online from Black Star Tactical it should be arriving at my FFL any day. I just got an email a couple days ago from Black Star Tactical about my gun and that I shouldn't use steel cased ammo. here is the email.

A few words on ammunition and 16" carbines:

Our 556 NATO Carbines are test fired using PMC 223 Remington 55 grain FMJ-BT Ammunition. We recommend that you use the same or comparable loads to insure proper cycling function and operation of your carbine. We do not recommend the use of any Russian, steel or lacquered cased ammunition with this rifle. Any other case material besides brass will result in chamber fouling and extraction problems.

Russian 556 NATO ammo is notorious for not cycling the action on carbines. We highly recommend that you do NOT EVER fire any steel or lacquer cased ammo out of your new RGuns 16" carbine or any 556 MIL SPEC chambered upper receivers. Use only brass cased rounds. If you don't know how to tell the difference, steel is usually gray and lacquered is almost always green. BOTH ARE DEFINITELY A NO GO..

Our Carbines are test fired with magazine they have been shipped with, if ordered. If not we use a MIL SPEC 30 round aluminum magazine. We recommend using this magazine the first time out to insure proper operation, before using any other type of magazines such as Magpul PMags.

Before packing, the bore and chambers are scrubbed and swabbed. The BCG is given a light coat of Rem Oil as is the barrel. The rear sight, if included, is removed and packed separately due to shipping box constraints. Of course you should inspect the chamber and bore before use but It should function properly right out of the box.

Note: Proper shouldering technique when firing 16" carbines is important for cycling. Make sure to keep good, firm pressure between the butt stock and your shoulder when firing. "Soft Shouldering" a carbine will more than likely cause it to "short stroke" and lock the bolt to the rear as it would when the last round has been fired and the magazine is empty.

Let us know if you have any questions.




please let me know what you guys think. Is this normal to get this email? They did not tell me this when I ordered the gun. I really want to be able to run steel cased ammo because it is so much more affordable. Also I want to be able to run steel case because this is my SHTF rifle and I want to be able to run any ammo I come across. Any info anyone can add is welcome. Should I try and shoot steel case and see if it works? What should I do? Are there parts that I can replace that will help it run steel cased ammo?

Mossy Man 10-05-2012 10:34 PM

sounds like a cheap product

AbsoluteTruth 10-05-2012 10:36 PM

I bought it for 730.00 so it wasn't SUPER cheap but it was on the cheaper side.

Mossy Man 10-05-2012 10:38 PM

sounds like FUD to me

MXRider 10-05-2012 10:39 PM

Lol, use only quality milspec ammo, rifle tested and designed to run on pmc bronze. Should be a red jacket meme.

Shoot what you want out of it, wolf is dirty and underpowered, but it is cheap for training and practice.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

HK Dave 10-05-2012 10:42 PM

You didn't buy an M4... you bought an AR15. ;)

jeffrice6 10-05-2012 10:43 PM

They're just playing the CYA game. I'm sure your rifle will run fine with whatever you put down the pipe. That said, some AR's just don't seem to like the steel stuff. I do find it humorous that they state "our 556 NATO carbines are test fired using PMC 223"

AbsoluteTruth 10-05-2012 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXRider (Post 9463968)
Lol, use only quality milspec ammo, rifle tested and designed to run on pmc bronze. Should be a red jacket meme.

Shoot what you want out of it, wolf is dirty and underpowered, but it is cheap for training and practice.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2



So if you bought this rifle and got this email you would still try wolf in it? Oh and what is chamber fouling I am new to AR 15's?

frankm 10-05-2012 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbsoluteTruth (Post 9463984)
So if you bought this rifle and got this email you would still try wolf in it? Oh and what is chamber fouling I am new to AR 15's?

I would try all ammo in it, find out what you and your rifle like the best. Fouling is how dirty the chamber gets. Some ammo, like Wolf is more dirty.

MXRider 10-05-2012 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbsoluteTruth (Post 9463984)
So if you bought this rifle and got this email you would still try wolf in it? Oh and what is chamber fouling I am new to AR 15's?

I wouldn't have bought that rifle in the first place, I would have gone with a well known, proven product.

To answer your question though, after checking the rifle over thoroughly, including the chamber with a gauge, and verifying it is a NATO spec, yes I would shoot wolf out of it. The email they sent you is likely just them covering their *** if you run **** ammo through it and have it blow up on you.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

AbsoluteTruth 10-05-2012 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankm (Post 9463998)
I would try all ammo in it, find out what you and your rifle like the best. Fouling is how dirty the chamber gets. Some ammo, like Wolf is more dirty.

I'll try as much as I can. I don't really have the money to be buying the expensive stuff though...I'm really just hoping it will run steel. Lets say hypothetically it doesn't run steel. Is there anything that can be done to the rifle to fix the problem?

Mossy Man 10-05-2012 10:55 PM

i've never heard of this brand before ever

AbsoluteTruth 10-05-2012 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXRider (Post 9464015)
I wouldn't have bought that rifle in the first place, I would have gone with a well known, proven product.

To answer your question though, after checking the rifle over thoroughly, including the chamber with a gauge, and verifying it is a NATO spec, yes I would shoot wolf out of it. The email they sent you is likely just them covering their *** if you run **** ammo through it and have it blow up on you.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

Thank you for your input. I probably should have waited and bought something else but I got tired of saving :/

Do you think the FFL would be able to check the chamber with a gauge and verify that it is NATO spec?

MXRider 10-05-2012 10:57 PM

A qualified AR armorer should be able to go over it for you.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

AbsoluteTruth 10-05-2012 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mossy Man (Post 9464024)
i've never heard of this brand before ever

It is Rguns which has been around for a while but they don't have the best reviews mainly because of their customer service. I haven't really seen anything out there about there rifles being bad though only customer service. but I bought the gun from an online store http://black-star-tactical.com/

MXRider 10-05-2012 11:02 PM

What did you pay for this rifle if you don't mind me asking?

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

AbsoluteTruth 10-05-2012 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mossy Man (Post 9464024)
i've never heard of this brand before ever

Oh and this is Rguns website http://www.rguns.net/

Mossy Man 10-05-2012 11:03 PM

after some google-fu...

sounds like Rguns LPKs are all out of spec, their uppers and lowers are ok (if poorly finished) and they end up getting returned to FFLs often for breaking.

sorry bro

chozenfew805 10-05-2012 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffrice6 (Post 9463978)
They're just playing the CYA game. I'm sure your rifle will run fine with whatever you put down the pipe. That said, some AR's just don't seem to like the steel stuff. I do find it humorous that they state "our 556 NATO carbines are test fired using PMC 223"

:iagree:100%

AbsoluteTruth 10-05-2012 11:06 PM

If you have any links it would be appreciated. Oh and what does LPK mean? Sorry I'm a noob. I appreciate your input though. I really hope for some reason its different for me..haha

Mossy Man 10-05-2012 11:07 PM

http://www.nyfirearms.com/forums/rif...ks-beware.html
http://www.nyfirearms.com/forums/ar-...s-ar-15-a.html

LPK = lower parts kit (The internals that make the gun go bang, trigger etc)

man i'd be afraid

AbsoluteTruth 10-05-2012 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chozenfew805 (Post 9464058)
:iagree:100%


Thank you your making me feel a little bit better about my purchase :)

Mossy Man 10-05-2012 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbsoluteTruth (Post 9464070)
Thank you your making me feel a little bit better about my purchase :)

Just go shoot it and see what happens

sounds like rguns customer support is slow but if you hassle them they'll fix it

MXRider 10-05-2012 11:09 PM

Lpk is the lower parts kit.

Honestly I would return it and buy a quality rifle. A grand will get you a Colt or BCM.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

cfusionpm 10-05-2012 11:18 PM

Buy a box or two of Wolf and see what it does. Either it runs it or it doesn't. It shouldn't break anything trying.

AbsoluteTruth 10-05-2012 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXRider (Post 9464075)
Lpk is the lower parts kit.

Honestly I would return it and buy a quality rifle. A grand will get you a Colt or BCM.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

I really would and I still might but I don't have an extra 3-400 dollars laying around and then have to buy ammo and magazines and a scope. I don't make a lot of money. Do you think they would accept a return even if I shot it?

Mossy Man 10-05-2012 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbsoluteTruth (Post 9464120)
I really would and I still might but I don't have an extra 3-400 dollars laying around and then have to buy ammo and magazines and a scope. I don't make a lot of money. Do you think they would accept a return even if I shot it?

for $730 you would have been better off buying an M&P 15 Sport or a DPMS Oracle

nitroxdiver 10-05-2012 11:32 PM

If you are going to try and return it, do so before you take possession of it (paperwork). Deffinately don't shoot it then try and return it. S&W MP sport is in your budget and is proving to be a fine rifle. No dust cover or foward assist.

If you do take possession of your rguns rifle, go to the range and shoot some xm193 for a number of rounds to check function. Then start introducing different brands of steel and different mags to continue checking compatibility function. It may work it may not. I have no idea if my rifles shoot steel as I never buy it. m193 and m855 only.

Good luck and have fun!

Mossy Man 10-05-2012 11:36 PM

if he's on a budget it would be in his best interest to buy a rifle that is known to cycle budget ammo (AKA russian steel)

you should have got a WASR in 7.62 lol

In other news, the sport seems to love russian steel

jeffrice6 10-05-2012 11:38 PM

I would return it. You purchased their rifle with the intent of shooting steel, it was only after your purchase they informed you that steel is not recommended.

Cadre 10-05-2012 11:38 PM

some, maybe most MFG has recommended ammo listed on the manual some will even say using said ammo will void the warranty if the weapon breaks and it was cause by using bad ammo what then? just my 2 cents.

AbsoluteTruth 10-05-2012 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nitroxdiver (Post 9464152)
If you are going to try and return it, do so before you take possession of it (paperwork). Deffinately don't shoot it then try and return it. S&W MP sport is in your budget and is proving to be a fine rifle. No dust cover or foward assist.

If you do take possession of your rguns rifle, go to the range and shoot some xm193 for a number of rounds to check function. Then start introducing different brands of steel and different mags to continue checking compatibility function. It may work it may not. I have no idea if my rifles shoot steel as I never buy it. m193 and m855 only.

Good luck and have fun!

The thing is I really want a foward assist and a dust cover on my rifle. I want the forward assist so if SHTF ever happened and I was defending my life and had a jam I could just hit it and be back in the fight...

If I decided to return it before I signed anything would the FFL ship it back for me? Would that cost money? Would I still have to pay them the transfer fee?
thanks for letting me know.

sigstroker 10-05-2012 11:42 PM

So the general advice is to spend more money on the rifle so you can shoot cheap ammo.

Doesn't make any sense.

For some reason this forum has a real fascination with shooting the cheapest, crappiest ammo people can find, but are happy to spend 2 grand on an AR-15.

Mossy Man 10-05-2012 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigstroker (Post 9464184)
So the general advice is to spend more money on the rifle so you can shoot cheap ammo.

Doesn't make any sense.

For some reason this forum has a real fascination with shooting the cheapest, crappiest ammo people can find, but are happy to spend 2 grand on an AR-15.

i've never told him to buy an expensive rifle to shoot cheap ammo.

in fact all suggestions (too late, of course) I made were for guns cheaper than the one he purchased.

Mossy Man 10-05-2012 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbsoluteTruth (Post 9464181)
The thing is I really want a foward assist and a dust cover on my rifle. I want the forward assist so if SHTF ever happened and I was defending my life and had a jam I could just hit it and be back in the fight...

If I decided to return it before I signed anything would the FFL ship it back for me? Would that cost money? Would I still have to pay them the transfer fee?
thanks for letting me know.

FA doesn't work that way. If your bolt fails to fully chamber, then most likely something really isn't right, and if you jam that FA you'll get that one shot until it's really FUBARed.

Plus, in a rifles like the sport, you have the scallop on the actual bolt carrier (doesn't even really get hot while firing) to push it forward. In a rifle like an AK or mini, you have a charging handle to assist.

The dust cover is the only real argument IMO, but even then you'd have to run it dry, with crappy mags, AND kick gravel into the chamber for it to fail (thanks zombie tactics)

And if you really wanted the FA/DC, you could have purchased a DPMS Oracle and some magpul flip ups and that would have cost about the same.

LAKings22 10-05-2012 11:53 PM

Was this information available to you BEFORE you made the purchase? If not then I would ask for a refund and go with another company that backs their product up 100% no mater what ammo you shoot.

Dreaded Claymore 10-05-2012 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbsoluteTruth (Post 9464019)
I'll try as much as I can. I don't really have the money to be buying the expensive stuff though...I'm really just hoping it will run steel. Lets say hypothetically it doesn't run steel. Is there anything that can be done to the rifle to fix the problem?

Yeah, there are a few things that can be done. One of the easiest would be to get a lighter recoil buffer. The problem is not insoluble.

Speedpower 10-05-2012 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbsoluteTruth (Post 9464181)
The thing is I really want a foward assist and a dust cover on my rifle. I want the forward assist so if SHTF ever happened and I was defending my life and had a jam I could just hit it and be back in the fight...

If I decided to return it before I signed anything would the FFL ship it back for me? Would that cost money? Would I still have to pay them the transfer fee?
thanks for letting me know.

SHTF will never happen! :rolleyes: it's more of a Fantasy!

AbsoluteTruth 10-05-2012 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAKings22 (Post 9464221)
Was this information available to you BEFORE you made the purchase? If not then I would ask for a refund and go with another company that backs their product up 100% no mater what ammo you shoot.

No I was never told this BEFORE I bought it. It was told to me AFTER it was shipped.

Whatisthis? 10-06-2012 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mossy Man (Post 9464164)
if he's on a budget it would be in his best interest to buy a rifle that is known to cycle budget ammo (AKA russian steel)

you should have got a WASR in 7.62 lol

In other news, the sport seems to love russian steel

+1

Saiga Sporter is what I was looking at for a cheap rifle. Plus you can buy the rifle, shoot it as is as you save up more money to convert it to an AK-47.

You could also go with the M&P15 Sport.

You could build a good quality AR-15 from Palmetto State Armory parts. Buy a lower locally and then order everything else from their website.

You could buy here on the classifieds. Lots of good deals, but you need to sort through the people that think their firearm is worth 20% over retail (it's absolutely ridiculous sometimes... that's in a whole other thread tho).

All of these options can get you something for under $800 if you look hard enough. And the Saiga Sporter is IMO, the best value unless you REALLY want an AR-15.

I'll find the for sale ad but usually the Saigas are around $400. As a note, the chambering says .223, but this is an exception to the "Do not fire a 5.56 in a .223 rifle" (Another argument or belief in itself, I won't get into it). Anyways, it'll say .223, but you're fine to shoot .223 or 5.56 with no repercussions.


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