Calguns.net

Calguns.net (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/index.php)
-   Calgunners in Service (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=154)
-   -   Buying guns while in the military, bringing guns to CA, CCW (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=621080)

Librarian 09-16-2012 6:26 PM

Buying guns while in the military, bringing guns to CA, CCW
 
With PCS to CA you are a CA resident
In CA, your PCS orders make you a CA resident for gun-buying purposes; you may buy guns at any CA FFL just as a 'regular' CA resident may.
Your orders are proof of residency
For handguns, you do not need more proof of residency than a copy of your orders. See the wiki article -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Bu...d_gun_handling
BATF ruled you are not a resident of any other state but PCS state, for gun buying purposes
BATF has ruled that, for gun buying purposes, you are ONLY a resident of the state where you are stationed PCS - for guns, you are NOT a resident of any other state, even though you may still vote, pay taxes, maintain your driver license, and own property there. See the wiki article on residency -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Fe...y_requirements. That means if your PCS orders are to CA, you may not legally buy guns outside of CA.
Handgun Roster does not apply when you are ordered here
You may bring most of your guns with you; the Handgun Roster does not apply to moving or visiting here.
Can I bring what California calls an 'assault weapon'?
No. It is not possible to register them any more - all registration periods heve been closed for a decade. There still exists the concept of the Military Assault Weapon Permit (MAWP), but the program is broken (CA-DOJ insists on a letter from base/post commander verifying that private weapons have a military necessity.)

Your issue weapons are excepted.

Presuming your weapon is not listed in the banned-by-name group (see the Flowchart - http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf) you may add a magazine locking device ('bullet button") and use 10-round magazines in it while in CA.

See the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Mi..._Weapon_Permit
Can I bring in magazines with capacity greater than 10?
No. Magazines issued to you by your service are excepted.
Don't worry about handgun registration
Military is exempt from registering handguns (or long guns, beginning in 2014) as a 'new resident' 'personal handgun importer'.

See the wiki article -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Mo..._with_firearms.
Out of state CCW is not valid
CA does not honor any out of state CCW licenses/permits. CA law does not consider active duty military any differently from non-military when considering an application. In many places, CCW is very difficult to get; in some places it is not hard, but takes a long time.

dachan 09-18-2012 7:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Librarian (Post 9339982)
[U][/INDENT]BATF ruled you are not a resident of any other state but PCS state, for gun buying purposes[INDENT]BATF has ruled that, for gun buying purposes, you are ONLY a resident of the state where you are stationed PCS - for guns, you are NOT a resident of any other state, even though you may still vote, pay taxes, maintain your driver license, and own property there. See the wiki article on residency -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Fe...y_requirements. That means if your PCS orders are to CA, you may not legally buy guns outside of CA.

Why are you backtracking from your previous acceptance that a service member does not loose their state of legal residence when they are stationed abroad, or stationed in a different state?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=555826

nothing4u 09-18-2012 9:04 AM

If we were going on the basis of PCS orders alone, any service member who is currently stationed overseas would not be able to buy any firearms in any state. As they are not a resident of any state.

Librarian 09-18-2012 2:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dachan (Post 9349085)
Why are you backtracking from your previous acceptance that a service member does not loose their state of legal residence when they are stationed abroad, or stationed in a different state?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=555826

Now that I can see the exact thread, I find my initial enthusiasm there for the SCRA was misplaced, and know that it does not address buying guns. As such, the BATF memo appears to be controlling.

Librarian 09-18-2012 2:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nothing4u (Post 9349547)
If we were going on the basis of PCS orders alone, any service member who is currently stationed overseas would not be able to buy any firearms in any state. As they are not a resident of any state.

That's true. One might contact JAG about that, I suppose.

There is also a lawsuit on the point: Lane v Holder.

Novator 09-24-2012 11:05 AM

ATF Rul. 2010-6 is also relevant. Key text is as follows.

Held, for the purpose of acquiring firearms under the Gun Control Act of 1968, a United States citizen who temporarily resides in a foreign country, but who also demonstrates the intention of making a home in a particular State, is a resident of the State during the time period he or she actually resides in that State.

Held further, the intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.


Full Ruling
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulin...ing-2010-6.pdf

This would take care of military stationed overseas. The full text also discusses multiple state residences which seems to crack the door (in a very grey area, definitely not explicitly stated way) for military firearm purchases in their legal state of residence, assuming they maintain proper documentation for that state.

Justin R White 10-28-2012 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Librarian (Post 9339982)
Don't worry about handgun registration[INDENT]Military is exempt from registering handguns (or long guns, beginning in 2014) as a 'new resident' 'personal handgun importer'.

Does this also apply to Military Spouses? My wife is PCSing to San Diego and we are TX residents. Can I use the family guns without registering them under the notion that they're "Hers"? I plan to take the guns out for training purposes fairly often.

roll2li 10-27-2013 1:31 PM

Wow, since moving up to Ventura from San Diego, I've been having trouble with FFLs in the area. Island View Enterprises has been good, but I went down to SFV for a transfer and got refused at two different FFLs.

The first, Addax Tactical wouldn't accept orders as proof of residency and wanted either a utility bill, lease or registration to confirm. The salesclerk even had the nerve to ask why I didn't get a California driver's license as I should have to by law (she was wrong as I'm sure you all know). The second was even worse. It was a tool supply place at 2053 Glen Oaks Blvd. The owner there said because I had an out of state ID there was "no legal way" for me to buy a firearm in California. He then told me all the transfers I had done in the state were to dealer FFL transfer and then a separate transfer to the purchaser. All those FFLs that did transfers for the past three years for me must have been cooking the books I guess.

So much FUD and stupidity. Just want to get the word out to any servicemembers in the area so you can avoid these FFLs and the hassle. Only had this happen once in San Diego and that gunshop is no longer in business.

Librarian 10-27-2013 2:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin R White (Post 9608116)
Does this also apply to Military Spouses? My wife is PCSing to San Diego and we are TX residents. Can I use the family guns without registering them under the notion that they're "Hers"? I plan to take the guns out for training purposes fairly often.

Spouses are not mentioned in the Penal Code.

OTOH, CA has no way to know who actually owns the guns - most states don't register guns, and CA has no access to the registration info of the states that do.

Addax 10-27-2013 5:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roll2li (Post 12634749)
The first, Addax Tactical wouldn't accept orders as proof of residency and wanted either a utility bill, lease or registration to confirm. The salesclerk even had the nerve to ask why I didn't get a California driver's license as I should have to by law (she was wrong as I'm sure you all know).

First off, we want to apologize for any frustration or confusion we might have created for you in this matter.

Yes your Permanent Duty Station Orders along with your Military ID are acceptable forms of ID.

The reason why we ask for CA ID was due to a very serious incident last year involving a person who attempted to purchase a firearm with a Fake Military ID and Fake Permanent Duty Station Orders.

BATF, CA-DOJ, and other agencies were involved in the investigation, and it was an experience we will not soon forget.

After this incident, we normally will ask for a California DL, or other form of acceptable ID when we are presented with Military ID and Permanent Duty Station orders for verification purposes only.

We just want to play it very safe.

Again, we apologize for any confusion or frustration we caused, and we hope you understand why we are being a little more cautious.

Thank you,
AT

roll2li 10-27-2013 9:54 PM

Thanks for the explanation, I'm glad you were able to retain your licenses and I can only imagine how painful the investigation had to have been.

I'm not surprised this more scrutiny would happen with areas with less military presence as those types of purchases would be rarer. The only times I've had my orders or ID questioned or refused were typically in places not near military bases. I can imagine that during the audits Cal DOJ would want to hone in on anything that looks atypical.

It just seems like every couple of months we have a thread where someone on AD is told they can't do a transfer without a Cal ID or a utility bill. Most can get by eventually but it still sucks.

Addax 10-28-2013 8:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roll2li (Post 12638135)
Thanks for the explanation, I'm glad you were able to retain your licenses and I can only imagine how painful the investigation had to have been.

I'm not surprised this more scrutiny would happen with areas with less military presence as those types of purchases would be rarer. The only times I've had my orders or ID questioned or refused were typically in places not near military places. I can imagine that during the audits Cal DOJ would want to hone in on anything that looks atypical.

It just seems like every couple of months we have a thread where someone on AD is told they can't do a transfer without a Cal ID or a utility bill. Most can get by eventually but it still sucks.

Thank you for your understanding roll2li.

pterrell 10-28-2013 9:45 AM

I have two questions

First off, is it confirmed for sure that active duty will NOT need to register long guns in CA on 1 Jan 2014?

Second, what is to stop me from buying firearms in my home state where I have a DL? If I go home on leave wouldn't that mean that I'm residing in that state again?

roll2li 10-28-2013 10:11 AM

1) Yes military is exempt from registration

2) This topic has been debated many times in the forum. You are right, no one in theory will know, but in the end it is a violation of the BATF ruling that your state of residence is the state in your orders. Like many others on AD I keep my state of residence seperate from California (voting, income tax etc) but in terms of the BATF you are a resident of California if you have PCS orders here and buying guns in another state is a violation of 27 CFR.

I have ONLY seen once a guy on AD be able to buy in two different states, he lived in Florida (high school kids) and commuted to MS daily. He was able to buy in both since he had a home in one state (that he actually lived in) and orders to the other. Not a lot of FFls supported that though.

In other words, it's up to you, as pretty much any other advice on this forum about guy buying legality. Will you get caught? I don't think so, but you are putting your gun buying rights out there.

pterrell 10-28-2013 10:43 AM

Thanks for clearing that up for me. It is interesting though that you can so easily get burned by this law which many don't know about. Hell, I've been in for 3 years and this morning was the first I heard about it.

roll2li 10-28-2013 1:44 PM

Don't worry, that's why this thread is a sticky. If it wasn't for Calguns I'm pretty sure I'd be in trouble by now.

TXDARKHORSE361 02-01-2014 10:33 AM

When I was stationed there the FFL I went through for a transfer had said I needed other proof of residency as well, my car registration worked since I bought it in CA and had it registered there. Also said a utility bill or a hunting or fishing license would suffice which is what my buddies that lived in the barracks did. It was the first and only firearm I had purchased in CA so didn't know better. I did purchase guns when I was home on leave in TX though but this was 2007-2012 time frame so it may have since changed.

Gawernator 08-19-2014 12:38 PM

Military are only exempt from registering guns when they first move to the state, or on new purchases? I'm a bit confused by that statement.

pterrell 10-17-2014 6:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawernator (Post 14698335)
Military are only exempt from registering guns when they first move to the state, or on new purchases? I'm a bit confused by that statement.

Only exempt from registering what you bring into the state. If you but it here, it gets registered.

Gawernator 10-17-2014 7:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pterrell (Post 15086990)
Only exempt from registering what you bring into the state. If you but it here, it gets registered.


That's what I thought. Thanks

stitch_paradox 12-29-2014 11:35 AM

Can a CA resident buy an off roster gun from an active duty military that is stationed here?

RickD427 12-29-2014 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stitch_paradox (Post 15528341)
Can a CA resident buy an off roster gun from an active duty military that is stationed here?

So long as they do it face-to-face via a Private Party Transfer at an FFL. If the seller ships the gun to the FFL then the roster applies.

stitch_paradox 12-29-2014 5:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickD427 (Post 15528489)
So long as they do it face-to-face via a Private Party Transfer at an FFL. If the seller ships the gun to the FFL then the roster applies.

Even though the gun is not registered in CA?

pterrell 12-29-2014 5:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stitch_paradox (Post 15529959)
Even though the gun is not registered in CA?

Correct. It will be registered once you dros it though. Military is not required to register any firearms brought into the state.

stitch_paradox 12-29-2014 9:25 PM

Thanks!

mtmorto 03-31-2016 5:42 PM

Bear with me here as I'm new to all these CA laws and not used to having all these hoops to jump through.

I've got a question about this: I currently live in SC. I've got an AR that I built here, and it's not on the list. My understanding (from what is listed above) is that I can't bring it with me when I PCS to CA. What if I install a bullet button and use 10-rd mags and bring it? Is that legal?

If I can't bring my "assault weapon" into the state, but am considered a CA resident for gun-buying purposes while on orders in CA, can't I just buy a CA-legal AR while I'm stationed there?

RickD427 03-31-2016 6:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtmorto (Post 17932343)
Bear with me here as I'm new to all these CA laws and not used to having all these hoops to jump through.

I've got a question about this: I currently live in SC. I've got an AR that I built here, and it's not on the list. My understanding (from what is listed above) is that I can't bring it with me when I PCS to CA. What if I install a bullet button and use 10-rd mags and bring it? Is that legal?

If I can't bring my "assault weapon" into the state, but am considered a CA resident for gun-buying purposes while on orders in CA, can't I just buy a CA-legal AR while I'm stationed there?

I'm assuming that you're talking about an AR Rifle.

If your lower receiver is not an "Evil by Name" Assault Weapon, then you can either fit it with a bullet button, or make it featureless, and then bring it in with California legal-standard magazines of 10 rounds or less.

If your lower is an "Evil by Name" Assault Weapon, then possession in California is a felony and you can't fix it.

mtmorto 04-01-2016 3:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickD427 (Post 17932526)
I'm assuming that you're talking about an AR Rifle.

If your lower receiver is not an "Evil by Name" Assault Weapon, then you can either fit it with a bullet button, or make it featureless, and then bring it in with California legal-standard magazines of 10 rounds or less.

If your lower is an "Evil by Name" Assault Weapon, then possession in California is a felony and you can't fix it.

Yes I am talking about an AR. It isn't "evil by name." That clears things up for me, Rick. Thanks!


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 4:02 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.