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-   -   Jack Ross Ammo Ponzi scheme? Out of business? (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=593140)

AirShark 07-08-2012 6:46 PM

Jack Ross Ammo Ponzi scheme? Out of business?
 
I ordered 500rnds of S&W .40 reloads from Jack Ross Ammo on 4/10/12 for $99.50 shipped to CA. A small test order.

They charge up front when the order is placed. First bad sign.

They also stated the there may be up to a 3-6 week delay. No big deal I figured, good prices, good reviews. It was worth taking a chance, I thought.

I sent them several emails at the 6 and 7 week mark. They were very polite and stated that it would be another few weeks. They also said to follow them on Facebook for the best idea of where they are in production.

Off to Facebook I went. Their Facebook page quickly blossomed into a page full of angry, irate customers. They kept posting promises of updates soon and refunds for those who asked. I figured that I had already waited a long time, what's a little longer?

Then last week their Facebook page was deleted.

They now refuse to return phone calls or emails.

Their website is up but everything says "out of stock."

Other forums state that people are being sent refund checks that are bouncing.

I've filed a BBB complaint and still after no response, I'll be calling my bank tomorrow to initiate a chargeback.

My gut feeling (with no proof) is that they are probably running their business like an ammo Ponzi scheme. You put up capital they don't have and they fill orders for the guy before you, then take out salary and operating expenses. A some point, there's no money left to make ammo for everyone. You cut off communication and hope not everyone tries to get their money back. Many people are now past their dispute time limit with their CC company. Luckily for me, Chase has told me that I have 120 days to dispute a charge.

Reminds me of the "Freakshow Manufacturing" debacle. Google it for details on that whole spectacle.

Are any other Calgunners caught in the Jack Ross scam vortex?

Dark Mod 07-08-2012 8:11 PM

Holy crap i just read the whole freakshow debacle, what a ride. I would never buy anything from a company with that kind of business model, but Jack Ross hasnt exactly spiraled out of control yet so we should cut them some slack.

Very similar to the Mosin Group Buy Expertish did a few months back. What a nightmare

XDRoX 07-08-2012 8:38 PM

That sucks and I hope all ends well.

On the Freakshow debacle, he never knowingly tried to rip anyone off. He just got caught up in the action and got in over his head.

I've never bought a thing from him but have been around during all the drama. I feel bad for him really. I have asked him for reloading advice many times and always received great advice over the years. He's a qualified hand loader, just not a smart business man. But he's learning and I really feel he tried to make right his wrongs.

TygerAR 07-08-2012 8:44 PM

Yeah, Let this be a reminder to every one. If any doubt, pay with your Credit card and know how long you have to dispute a charge. Most of the best people I've dealt with, take your order and only take payment info/charge card when the item is ready to ship. If the product is any good, then there will be some one else to buy the item if you change your mind about buying said item. Question anyone, that takes your money then makes you wait more then a week.

AirShark 07-08-2012 9:01 PM

I'm with you guys, I don't get the feeling in my gut that they're crooked. I just get the feeling that they're HORRIBLE business owners and are in WAY over their heads once the orders started rolling in en masse.

They sent a few polite but unhelpful emails at the beginning of June, but since then have cut off all communication with me. That includes email, Facebook, phone/voicemails...nothing works.

They told me on 6/2 that they were on the end of March/beginning of April invoices...it says something that in over a month they couldn't get to my small 4/10 order.

I have a whole page of bookmarks on this Jack Ross thing from other forums, I just wanted to make it known to my Calguns brethren to STAY AWAY from Jack Ross. I'm also hoping someone else learns from my example of a risk gone bad.

Some people are beyond their dispute range and will be screwed out of their hundreds of dollars unless JR actually decides to send out some product.

I'll never order from somewhere that takes my money upfront again...NEVER!

AirShark 07-08-2012 9:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markdoddridge (Post 8895171)
Holy crap i just read the whole freakshow debacle, what a ride. I would never buy anything from a company with that kind of business model, but Jack Ross hasnt exactly spiraled out of control yet so we should cut them some slack.

Very similar to the Mosin Group Buy Expertish did a few months back. What a nightmare

At least Freakshow communicated with people throughout his business disaster...these people refuse any and all communication. Other forums say that they're laying people off and refund checks are bouncing.

That sounds like a spiral out of control to me.

Dark Mod 07-08-2012 9:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirShark (Post 8895478)
At least Freakshow communicated with people throughout his business disaster...these people refuse any and all communication. Other forums say that they're laying people off and refund checks are bouncing.

That sounds like a spiral out of control to me.

Agreed

I retract my previous statement.

mindwreck 07-08-2012 10:57 PM

I ordered ammo from them before the craziness started. They were great. cheap prices with prompt service.

But yeah this sucks for them and the people that ordered ammo. Another small American business going down the drain. They just weren't ready for this kind of volume of orders. A small family business with 100s probably 1000s of orders across the nation in a few months time.

They were fine 'til the point where i started seeing their prices posted on forums and on slickguns. With that kind of publicity, they just get hammered. Hopefully they make things right it and it all works out.

johnny1290 07-09-2012 12:18 AM

I read about them on another forum and one of the employees said he got laid off with a *ton* of backorders there.

Honestly it looks like his prices were too low to keep the doors open.

Bad news for everyone.

Gryff 07-09-2012 5:03 AM

Ironically they were exhibiting at the last Cow Palace show a couple of weeks ago

JNunez23 07-09-2012 9:42 AM

Wow, even more of a reason to load your own.

the_t0ny 07-09-2012 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gryff (Post 8896484)
Ironically they were exhibiting at the last Cow Palace show a couple of weeks ago

They had posted on their Facebook page that they would stop doing gun shows until they caught up with their Internet orders....I'm glad I filed a dispute with my credit card company.

paul0660 07-09-2012 11:32 AM

Quote:

prices were too low to keep the doors open.
One can only shake his head............another 5% and everyone might be happy.

Eat Dirt 07-09-2012 11:38 AM

:hide:

Interested to see how this plays out

A-J 07-09-2012 12:29 PM

I almost bought from them, but hwen I was ready to buy is roight around the time orders stopped being shipped. Went with Serge's reloads and have had zero issues. Prompt service, good prices, friendly person. Win win all the way around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirShark (Post 8894666)
I've filed a BBB complaint and still after no response, I'll be calling my bank tomorrow to initiate a chargeback.

When are people going to learn that the BBB is worthless? Sure, you can file a complaint about a business, but they have no licensing or other authority under which to punish businesses for bad behavior. It's also really really easy for a company to get a positive rating back. If you are having serious problems witha vendor, you need to contact the licensing authority for that business, if it is a regulated industry/trade. Otherwise you have no recourse besides civil court.

AirShark 07-09-2012 2:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mindwreck (Post 8896017)
I ordered ammo from them before the craziness started. They were great. cheap prices with prompt service.

But yeah this sucks for them and the people that ordered ammo. Another small American business going down the drain. They just weren't ready for this kind of volume of orders. A small family business with 100s probably 1000s of orders across the nation in a few months time.

They were fine 'til the point where i started seeing their prices posted on forums and on slickguns. With that kind of publicity, they just get hammered. Hopefully they make things right it and it all works out.

I think they were just greedy and took on way more than they could handle. They could have cut off orders at any time once they got back logged. Should have said no to the money and focused on what they could actually produce.

At one point on Facebook, they said that they were moving to a larger facility. I wonder how they paid for that?

AirShark 07-09-2012 2:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A-J (Post 8898127)
I almost bought from them, but hwen I was ready to buy is roight around the time orders stopped being shipped. Went with Serge's reloads and have had zero issues. Prompt service, good prices, friendly person. Win win all the way around.



When are people going to learn that the BBB is worthless? Sure, you can file a complaint about a business, but they have no licensing or other authority under which to punish businesses for bad behavior. It's also really really easy for a company to get a positive rating back. If you are having serious problems witha vendor, you need to contact the licensing authority for that business, if it is a regulated industry/trade. Otherwise you have no recourse besides civil court.

While I agree that they have no legal power, I have actually gotten resolution from several complaints in the past. I think of it more as an impartial online review site than anything else.

bohoki 07-09-2012 4:10 PM

hmm i met those guys i told them it must be hard to sell ammo with the 5 other companies selling it for less

they must have paid plenty for the buisness cards
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...i/DCP_0968.jpg

AirShark 07-09-2012 4:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bohoki (Post 8899503)
hmm i met those guys i told them it must be hard to sell ammo with the 5 other companies selling it for less

they must have paid plenty for the buisness cards
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...i/DCP_0968.jpg

That's funny. They're in Reno, but that guys phone number is 510 area code... Bay area.

AirShark 07-09-2012 5:04 PM

Looms like their Facebook page is back up:

"Contrary to the rumors floating on the net, we are still in business and still shipping ammunition. We are also still supplying ranges as they provide the brass that gets reloaded. As you know, we are not selling reloads online right now, so we did have to cut costs which is why some admin personal where laid-off. This has been a trying time for us as we grew in a six month time period from a one-man shop to a 5000 sf reloading facility with 12 auto loaders and 5 scharch range masters. We do this because we want to supply shooters with high quality reloads at an affordable price. But in trying to do too much, too quick, we stumbled. With your patience, we will recover and continue to supply you with the ammo you need.

Chris"

Here was my response:

"Bryan Lynch Great, when is #1367 showing up? I have placed my trust in you by letting you hold on to my money interest free since 4/10/12. I call, I email, I send you messages on Facebook and you don't reply. What are we supposed to think? If I don't have a shipment confirmation by this week, I'm just going to go the chargeback route as I've heard online of several refund checks bouncing. I have been patient, I have been kind and understanding and you've given me nothing back to earn the trust I've placed in you."

I don't care at ths point. They have treated their paying customers like dirt and I'm sick of it.

I told him if don't get a shipping confirmation this week, I'm doing the chargeback. You just dont take your customers money and then never speak to them again.

SacTown 07-09-2012 8:22 PM

AirShark, you will definitely not be getting a confirmation anytime soon. My order number is 993 from March 28 and I still haven't gotten a word. It would be nice if Chris could post the order number that was finished at the end of each day. I mean how difficult is that??

snowdog650 07-10-2012 9:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirShark (Post 8899523)
That's funny. They're in Reno, but that guys phone number is 510 area code... Bay area.

If you were starting a mail-order business, wouldn't you want to open it out of the state which will tax the hell out of you? I think it was smart on their part to incorporate in Nevada.

AirShark 07-10-2012 10:19 AM

If anyone wants to follow along with the slow moving disaster:

http://www.facebook.com/jackrossammunition

There's already a ton of angry posts in the last day since their page reappeared. I'm Bryan Lynch on there btw...

He (Owner/Chris) has basically said that he has spent our money on a new building and expenses and that he's mainly just filling range orders now.

What a terrible business model.

AirShark 07-10-2012 7:39 PM

His Facebook page has been pulled down again. Nice way to treat your victims suckers debtors customers. Not one response as to order status to anyone before he yanked it again btw.

I signed in on my wife's account just to make sure he hadn't blocked me lol.

Speedpower 07-10-2012 8:18 PM

Jack Ross = Plain Bad Business!

Na-vah-duh 07-10-2012 9:14 PM

Since I am Reno, NV for school I will stop by at Jack Ross's. I am curious to see what they actually have and see what they say in person.

I will update with pictures.

AirShark 07-10-2012 9:51 PM

They changed addresses, I'll see if I can find it. RECON!!! Love it... :-)

Mr.1904 07-10-2012 9:59 PM

Granted this is messed up. But he admitted fault and is getting crucified i'm sure.

Get your money back, call it a day. He's ruined his own name. Leave it be.

AirShark 07-10-2012 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.1904 (Post 8908123)
Granted this is messed up. But he admitted fault and is getting crucified i'm sure.

Get your money back, call it a day. He's ruined his own name. Leave it be.

I hear you. I really do. I'm not a mean person...I'm a father of two little boys, Army Rsrv veteran, community volunteer and I'm not confrontational by nature.

That being said, admitting fault and keeping someone's money while refusing to ship product or issue a refund is not really owning up to your mistakes.

I don't wish any harm to Chris @ Jack Ross, I just want him to man up and answer me instead of hiding. That is a total punk move.

I will get my money back, but I'm invested now in two things:

1. Make sure that people hear my story to avoid JRA and the same mistake I've made.
2. Follow this story to whatever completion it has...be that total refunds or bankruptcy.

You can't treat people like they have and not have it documented in the Internet age.

It's only money, and only $100 for me at that, not a huge deal. At this point it's more about the disrespect and principal of the thing.

Again, I don't wish any harm to the people over there. I'm just in lock-on mode until I get some freaking answers.

Then again, maybe you're right. Maybe I'll cool off and not care as much when my bank returns my money.

Spyder 07-10-2012 10:12 PM

I ordered a couple hundred bucks worth of ammo from Jack Ross. It didn't come on the expected date, and it didn't come for 2 weeks after. I asked them to refund the money, and three days later a check came in the mail.

Not a terrible experience, but I would have rather had the ammo.

AirShark 07-10-2012 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyder (Post 8908189)
I ordered a couple hundred bucks worth of ammo from Jack Ross. It didn't come on the expected date, and it didn't come for 2 weeks after. I asked them to refund the money, and three days later a check came in the mail.

Not a terrible experience, but I would have rather had the ammo.

Do you mind me asking when you ordered, when and how you asked for a refund?

I can't get them to answer the phone, reply to an email or return a voicemail left on their machine.

freonr22 07-10-2012 10:20 PM

tag

bombadillo 07-10-2012 11:07 PM

I'd say give them a bit of time, but that is total BS that they charged you upfront before shipping.

bombadillo 07-10-2012 11:07 PM

I'd say give them a bit of time, but that is total BS that they charged you upfront before shipping.

tankerman 07-10-2012 11:43 PM

I've heard this type of thing has happened to small business that get involved with Goupon.

What happens is they offer a very low sale/introductory price in hopes of attracting customers that will spend additional money on non-sale items or become repeat customers buying regularly priced merchandise, but what happens is the business ends up being overwhelmed by high numbs of customers that placed orders the initial low price offering that the business starts losing major money trying to fill the orders. some of these businesses do not survive.

AirShark 07-10-2012 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankerman (Post 8908518)
I've heard this type of thing has happened to small business that get involved with Goupon.

What happens is they offer a very low sale/introductory price in hopes of attracting customers that will spend additional money on non-sale items or become repeat customers buying regularly priced merchandise, but what happens is the business ends up being overwhelmed by high numbs of customers that placed orders the initial low price offering that the business starts losing major money trying to fill the orders. some of these businesses do not survive.

That is a crappy situation. I've heard a few of those stories myself. These guys kept taking orders with money up front for months after they were allegedly millions of rounds backlogged. That's not unfortunate or even sad... It's just wrong lol.

TechPro 07-11-2012 7:13 AM

I'm a victim/customer too and my story is much the same as many others. I placed an order earlier in the year and received a case of 9mm ammo within a few weeks from Jack Ross Ammo. So in March (21st) I place another order for 2 more cases. I was order #916. I called and left voice messages, sent email and commented on Facebook. I spoke to Tia several times when they were still answering the phones. And eventually on June 21st, I received half my order.

I emailed JRA again and on June 25th Tia responded telling me that they shipped half my order and the other half would ship "this week". But so far that second 1000 rounds of 9mm has not shown up.

I agree with Airshark, enough is enough. I've been a nice guy and remained calm and friendly. I was hoping JRA would succeed and I was willing to wait as long as I had confidence that I would eventually receive my order. Then their Facebook page dissappeared. That's what really got my attention and made me wake up. Then the Facebook page came back. And today it's gone again. I didn't even know there was a way to shut off a Facebook page and then resurrect it again...

Now I'm feeling like I've been a gullible chump. And now I want to address the principle of the issue, just as Airshark said, to follow through now that my focus is locked on. I want to make sure other's learn from my bad experience. And to be honest, now I want to see JRA punished for their apparent contempt and disrespect of their loyal customers.

So several days ago I documented my paper trail and filed a dispute with my credit card company, (USAA). And I've filed a complaint online with the FTC. There's a regulation called the 30 day rule that defines how a mail order (or internet store) must notify customers when ship dates exceed promised dates, or if no date is promised, within 30 days. And there are significant penalties. I urge others who may have been misled or unfairly treated by JackRossAmmo, to file a complaint with the FTC. Maybe if enough similar complaints are received, it may escalate the issue and get traction. Here's a link to the FTC complaint form:

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.go...d.aspx?Lang=en

I'm hopeful that my bank will refund my money for the outstanding $159.00. I am right on 116 days since my original purchase, and hope USAA will process my dispute and issue a backcharge. I've tried to call JRA almost daily for the past week but can't even leave a voice message. I will mail them a letter later today.

It's a shame. I wanted these guys to succeed. But they've shown their contempt for me by ignoring my emails and voice messages; by making false promises and lying to me. Now I want a final resolution and I want to make sure this kind of thing doesn't go unnoticed.

caideN 07-11-2012 8:30 AM

Jack Ross failed because they didn't really have a cap on the large amount of sales they were taking. Their cost is quite low and I believe I waited 8 weeks to get mine. I totally forgot I put in an order until it came in the mail. I'm sure they are all good people but just failed at running their business efficiently. It almost feels like we were investing the the company than paying for the ammo.

Dark Mod 07-11-2012 9:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Na-vah-duh (Post 8907857)
Since I am Reno, NV for school I will stop by at Jack Ross's. I am curious to see what they actually have and see what they say in person.

I will update with pictures.

Oh Hell yeah, Sh**s about to get real.

Im all for cutting them a break, but the shadyness of not responding and closing their facebook account is difficult to reconcile.

Let it be known that we Calgunners are legion, our reach spans well beyond Californias borders, and they will be held accountable.

Feel free to screw over a couple customers, just be prepared for the backlash.

bronco77 07-11-2012 3:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirShark (Post 8908208)
Do you mind me asking when you ordered, when and how you asked for a refund?

I can't get them to answer the phone, reply to an email or return a voicemail left on their machine.

I ordered from them at the beginning of April. After about 3 weeks I got a little annoyed that they already had my money but hadn't shipped. I sent an email to sales@jackrossammo.com to request a refund. About a week later I got the check. Around May 5th or so is when I got the refund.


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