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-   -   California Expandable Baton Laws (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=573844)

seca 05-18-2012 12:31 PM

California Expandable Baton Laws
 
I posted this in another section and a user suggested that I ask in this thread. The Question is on the 2007 Dangerous Weapons Control Law 12020 thru 12040 Unlawful Carrying and Possession Law.

As a retired :cool2: California C/O (Peace Officer) with a valid CCW for my pistols' I was wondering if can I carry my monadnock baton? If so, does it have to be concealed? I had a incident a while ago while walking and the thought it might have come in handy and prevented a dog bite. I am not looking for felons in the bushes... Sheeest...

Thanks.. Enjoy all the posts!!
"You don’t shoot to kill you shoot to stay alive".

mej16489 05-18-2012 1:11 PM

Off the top of my head, there are no exemptions for retired LE for even simple posession.

Here's the renumbered relevant Penal Code
http://leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisga...ction=retrieve

22210. Except as provided in Section 22215 and Chapter 1
(commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person
in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports
into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who
gives, lends, or possesses any leaded cane, or any instrument or
weapon of the kind commonly known as a billy, blackjack, sandbag,
sandclub, sap, or slungshot, is punishable by imprisonment in a
county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison.



22215. Section 22210 does not apply to the manufacture for, sale
to, exposing or keeping for sale to, importation of, or lending of
wooden clubs or batons to special police officers or uniformed
security guards authorized to carry any wooden club or baton pursuant
to Section 22295 by entities that are in the business of selling
wooden clubs or batons to special police officers and uniformed
security guards when engaging in transactions with those persons.

seca 05-18-2012 1:23 PM

I think you may be correct it is a SCOPE thing, after reading this I don't think its possible..

Anybody else?

California Penal Code Section 22295


(a) Nothing in any provision listed in Section 16580
prohibits any police officer, special police officer, peace officer,
or law enforcement officer from carrying any wooden club or baton.
(b) Nothing in any provision listed in Section 16580 prohibits a
uniformed security guard, regularly employed and compensated by a
person engaged in any lawful business, while actually employed and
engaged in protecting and preserving property or life within the
scope of employment,
from carrying any wooden club or baton if the
uniformed security guard has satisfactorily completed a course of
instruction certified by the Department of Consumer Affairs in the
carrying and use of the club or baton. The training institution
certified by the Department of Consumer Affairs to present this
course, whether public or private, is authorized to charge a fee
covering the cost of the training.
(c) The Department of Consumer Affairs, in cooperation with the
Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, shall develop
standards for a course in the carrying and use of a club or baton.
(d) Any uniformed security guard who successfully completes a
course of instruction under this section is entitled to receive a
permit to carry and use a club or baton within the scope of
employment, issued by the Department of Consumer Affairs. The
department may authorize a certified training institution to issue
permits to carry and use a club or baton. A fee in the amount
provided by law shall be charged by the Department of Consumer
Affairs to offset the costs incurred by the department in course
certification, quality control activities associated with the course,
and issuance of the permit.
(e) Any person who has received a permit or certificate that
indicates satisfactory completion of a club or baton training course
approved by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training
prior to January 1, 1983, shall not be required to obtain a club or
baton permit or complete a course certified by the Department of
Consumer Affairs.
(f) Any person employed as a county sheriff's or police security
officer, as defined in Section 831.4, shall not be required to obtain
a club or baton permit or to complete a course certified by the
Department of Consumer Affairs in the carrying and use of a club or
baton, provided that the person completes a course approved by the
Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training in the carrying
and use of the club or baton, within 90 days of employment.
(g) Nothing in any provision listed in Section 16580 prohibits an
animal control officer, as described in Section 830.9, or an illegal
dumping enforcement officer, as described in Section 830.7, from
carrying any wooden club or baton if the animal control officer or
illegal dumping enforcement officer has satisfactorily completed the
course of instruction certified by the Commission on Peace Officer
Standards and Training in the carrying and use of the club or baton.
The training institution certified by the Commission on Peace Officer
Standards and Training to present this course, whether public or
private, is authorized to charge a fee covering the cost of the
training.


"You donít shoot to kill you shoot to stay alive"

safewaysecurity 05-18-2012 1:36 PM

Whatever happened to that nunchucku case out of NY?

CAL.BAR 05-18-2012 1:44 PM

So, in short. NO. you are retired. CCW notwithstanding, you are just a peon like the rest of us. Sure carry your gun all you want, but you'll put an eye out with that baton.

tacticoolme 05-18-2012 1:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seca (Post 8602561)
...I had a incident a while ago while walking and the thought it might have come in handy and prevented a dog bite.

ASP Street Defender OC spray. Legal, easy to carry, works great to get aggressive dogs to back off.
http://www.policehq.com/UserFiles/Im...-greendfdr.jpg

seca 05-18-2012 2:00 PM

There is nothing wrong with being a peon.. I have waited many years for peon status, it's time to let it go. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh there is goes now.. I feel better.. Thanks for your response..

"Gun Control is not about guns; it’s about control"

TASK, LLC 05-18-2012 3:44 PM

Seca,

All I will say is "congratulations" to making it to where we are all trying to get to! Not as many officers make it to enjoy retirement as people think.

Good luck.

bohoki 05-18-2012 4:11 PM

the definitions are applied fast and loose an expandable baton seems to be none of these things

leaded cane is a devise used as a walking stick with added weight

or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a billy,(a small round weightedclub)
blackjack(a leather bag containing metal),
sandbag a leather bag full of sand
sandclub,a club full of sand
sap,a flat leather container of heavy material
or slungshot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slungshot

none of those items describe a expandable metal baton

seca 05-18-2012 7:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TASK, LLC (Post 8603718)
Seca,

All I will say is "congratulations" to making it to where we are all trying to get to! Not as many officers make it to enjoy retirement as people think.

Good luck.


Thanks a bunch the only knuckle head I want to ride anymore is in my garage!

BigDogatPlay 05-18-2012 7:22 PM

Retired = no impact weapons except perhaps a kubotan. There is no exemption for retirees.

Ron-Solo 05-18-2012 7:49 PM

A collapsible baton is a billy.

TRICKSTER 05-18-2012 8:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacticoolme (Post 8603068)
ASP Street Defender OC spray. Legal, easy to carry, works great to get aggressive dogs to back off.
http://www.policehq.com/UserFiles/Im...-greendfdr.jpg

Several years ago, there was a PD here in the Bay Area arresting people for these claiming that they were a billy club.

the donald 05-18-2012 10:41 PM

this law i find chuckle worthy. i have a softball bat felony, i have a firearm misdemeanor.


but my dad is a retired LEOhe had several batons, shorties, expandable, long, in a home defense situation if we were to use one?

they gave him a big plaque, it has his ID, badge, whistle, cuffs, and a baton. is that different from the above?

PositiveInfluence 05-19-2012 12:15 AM

You would need the baton permit required for security guards as well as a valid guard card to make that even possible. Plus you would only be able to carry it while on duty as a security guard.

bohoki 05-19-2012 8:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron-Solo (Post 8605030)
A collapsible baton is a billy.

what is the legal definiton of a billy

Ron-Solo 05-19-2012 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bohoki (Post 8606982)
what is the legal definiton of a billy

Basically, any club type weapon.

bohoki 05-19-2012 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron-Solo (Post 8607475)
Basically, any club type weapon.

then why does the law not say that?

Ron-Solo 05-19-2012 11:43 AM

Because the law was written many years ago when billy was a more common term.

If you expect logic associated with California law, it will only make your head hurt.

bohoki 05-19-2012 6:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron-Solo (Post 8607767)
Because the law was written many years ago when billy was a more common term.

If you expect logic associated with California law, it will only make your head hurt.

i do not believe that i believe the law was written specifically and has since been interpreted broadly

njineermike 05-19-2012 6:23 PM

This is California. If you have to ask, it's illegal.

Ron-Solo 05-19-2012 7:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bohoki (Post 8609482)
i do not believe that i believe the law was written specifically and has since been interpreted broadly

Just because you don't believe in something, doesn't mean it isnt true. From eHow.com

History
British constables in the early to mid-nineteenth century carried wooden truncheons which quickly received the name "billy clubs" (or "bully clubs"). At that time, the truncheon was also a means of identification for a legitimate law enforcement officer, similar to they way a badge is used today. Every baton had the authoritative organization's coat of arms emblazoned on its side, for presentation to the individual being approached or apprehended. The billy club was such a simple and efficient tool, British officers continued to carry the traditional wooden version without major modifications up to the 1990s.

Etymology
Some debate surrounds the origin of the name. Most accounts attribute the "billy" club to a variation of the slang use of "bully" when referring to a London police officer in the Victorian era. Other accounts hold that the early London constables were called "billies" as they served as the law enforcement officers for King William IV, also known as "Old Bill." Therefore, any club they carried might reasonably be referred to as a "billy club." The billy club, while having been renamed and reinvented many times throughout the last few centuries, is still a standard part of the modern-day police

Uses
The billy club is primarily a non-lethal defensive weapon when wielded appropriately. It can be used to strike, ward off blows, aid in other defensive maneuvers and holds, or simply to threaten escalated aggression. It is not meant to deal lethal blows, and most police organizations that employ it specifically train their personnel not to strike the head or other vital areas of the human body, which could lead to death.

Variations
The billy club (truncheon, baton, nightstick, billystick) was historically made of wood and was no longer than the length of a person's arm. Recent variations are minimal and mostly include the material used--plastic or steel, for instance.

The side-handle baton is approximately 2 feet long and has a side-handle that sticks out at a right angle to the main shaft, about six inches from one end.

The expandable baton (or telescoping baton) is collapsible with two to three inner shafts that expand out and lock into place. It is typically made of steel, and can come in either the straight-stick or side-handle variety.

The stun baton is designed much like the straight-stick baton, with an electric shock capability used to stun and incapacitate a person.

Legality
The legality of carrying any type of club weapon designed or modified to do harm to a person varies from country to country and state to state. Most districts forbid non-law enforcement personnel to carry such an item.



Read more: What Is a Billy Club? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_6459277_bi...#ixzz1vNJzOYaf

Manolito 05-19-2012 8:08 PM

I would venture to say that bad knee you got from a hands on call requires a walking stick to balance you on uneven pavement.

Dogs that have met the spray once can be scared away by holding hand out and hissing it is a sure sign they have been hit with spray.

Congratulations on your retirement. Now right a book while it is still fresh in your mind.

Possible title body cavities and fluids.
Or I was brave and ate the food

bohoki 05-19-2012 11:24 PM

i'm wondering if there is any blunt object can avoid that definition

seca 05-20-2012 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolito (Post 8610012)
I would venture to say that bad knee you got from a hands on call requires a walking stick to balance you on uneven pavement.

Dogs that have met the spray once can be scared away by holding hand out and hissing it is a sure sign they have been hit with spray.

Congratulations on your retirement. Now right a book while it is still fresh in your mind.

Possible title body cavities and fluids.
Or I was brave and ate the food

Oh hahhahaha good one! I am laughing out loud on that one.. I was thinking a working title might be.. Keistering a brand new day.. or ring tones from my suitcase? Let me know huh...


"If we make enough laws, we can all be criminals."

dougtoni 05-29-2012 5:41 AM

Congrats on your retirement. Ive got 18 down and 12 more togo. Hopefully...
Heres a few titles; So do you know why they call this the pokie? Or, Yes, Bubba does exsist. Should i bejewel my prison purse? Hahaha god we could do this all day.

smokechaser13 12-28-2012 1:09 PM

firefighter and paramedic use of expandable baton
 
So,

with all the terrible crap that has happened to my fire service brothers on the east and south east coast of our beloved United States of America in recent days, a discussion has formed around the dinner table of my fire station in regards to how to effectively protect ourselves when we respond to fire and EMS incidents.

Now, we normally do not have law enforcement responding with us to 95% of our incident. We do have LE responding on domestics, fights, suicides, and 1144's. Of course, for the exception of the 1144's, we stage in the area until cleared by LE.

I have been in the fire service for 25 years and have had the unfortunate experience of being assulted, having weapons pulled on me, and even had my ambulace shot at. Some of my younger firefighters have had some of the same sh%t occure, working in beautiful downtown Compton and Ingelwood.

With all that said, understandibly, we are not going to carry guns and boot knives, but the idea of having one of the crew members (I am a captain on an engine company) carry an expandable baton either in the small of our back or even in one of our trauma bags (although it may not be readily available is s*it goes down in a house) may be the answere to our quest for piece of mind responding to some of our more dangerous areas with fun loving s*itizins..

So, my questions to my brotheren in blue is; are there any regulations/laws preventing civil servant firefighters from carrying an expandable baton in the name of self defence or crew protection?

Thanks for any information.

safewaysecurity 12-28-2012 1:22 PM

It's illegal.

Sacmedic 12-28-2012 2:03 PM

Cap,

You can carry a Streamlight or Maglight flashlight of the 3 "D" cell size. Very effective when needed and is a legitimate work tool otherwise. You can bring it inside during daylight if you think it may be hard to see inside. :-)

Zedrek 12-28-2012 2:23 PM

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...L._AA1000_.jpg
$27.66 at Amazon.

FLIGHT762 12-28-2012 4:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bohoki (Post 8609482)
i do not believe that i believe the law was written specifically and has since been interpreted broadly

That's correct, it's called case law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bohoki (Post 8610888)
i'm wondering if there is any blunt object can avoid that definition

Just about any blunt instrument can fit the definition due to the intended use of the object. A baseball bat, axe handle a wooden stick with a rope thong attached will fit the definition if the intended use is for "protection" will fit the definition.

Case law has also evolved with the definition of a dirk or dagger, which used to be a fixed blade knife with a sharpened double edge. Not so anymore. A Dirk or Dagger can now be almost any "fixed" instrument used for stabbing.

BigKevLA 12-28-2012 6:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokechaser13 (Post 10039344)
So,

with all the terrible crap that has happened to my fire service brothers on the east and south east coast of our beloved United States of America in recent days, a discussion has formed around the dinner table of my fire station in regards to how to effectively protect ourselves when we respond to fire and EMS incidents.

Now, we normally do not have law enforcement responding with us to 95% of our incident. We do have LE responding on domestics, fights, suicides, and 1144's. Of course, for the exception of the 1144's, we stage in the area until cleared by LE.

I have been in the fire service for 25 years and have had the unfortunate experience of being assulted, having weapons pulled on me, and even had my ambulace shot at. Some of my younger firefighters have had some of the same sh%t occure, working in beautiful downtown Compton and Ingelwood.

With all that said, understandibly, we are not going to carry guns and boot knives, but the idea of having one of the crew members (I am a captain on an engine company) carry an expandable baton either in the small of our back or even in one of our trauma bags (although it may not be readily available is s*it goes down in a house) may be the answere to our quest for piece of mind responding to some of our more dangerous areas with fun loving s*itizins..

So, my questions to my brotheren in blue is; are there any regulations/laws preventing civil servant firefighters from carrying an expandable baton in the name of self defence or crew protection?

Thanks for any information.

I hear the Arson guys are California Peace Officers. You might want to become one.

Sacmedic 12-28-2012 6:55 PM

BigKevLA-

You are correct. Arson investigators in California are peace officers. See PC 830.37. These jobs are not plentiful, nor are the psych/background requirements any different than other peace officers in the state. The above poster may, or may not, wish to pursue that avenue. Until then he will be governed by the prohibition on carrying a collapsible baton.

BigStiCK 12-29-2012 6:18 PM

Carry the Pepper & your CCW. Keep a 3 cell Maglite in the car. Collapsible batons are mediocre.

You can crush bones with that Maglite. The baton may or may not cause bruising. I speak from experience.
;)

Sacmedic 12-29-2012 9:15 PM

+1 to BigStick's advice.

Ron-Solo 12-29-2012 9:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigStiCK (Post 10052012)
Carry the Pepper & your CCW. Keep a 3 cell Maglite in the car. Collapsible batons are mediocre.

You can crush bones with that Maglite. The baton may or may not cause bruising. I speak from experience.
;)

Yup.....

Samuelx 12-30-2012 9:38 AM

Re: expandable straight batons - if you haven't played with a Peacekeeper Products RCB, it would be worth a look. It's the new and improved version of the old Wilmoth/Winchester baton and will definitely let the other guy(s) know you mean business! For those of you in the neighborhood of campus, I've got a few different types of expandable straight batons in my desk, including 21/26/29" RCBs, you're welcome to come by and test drive them on a heavy bag in the gym.

Re: flashlights - I've got a 7 C cell maglite with Malkoff drop-in module, it's really nice. :D

Re: smokechaser - how about one of these:

http://www.westcoastfirerescue.com/H...-new-group.jpg ;)

Pelicandriver 12-30-2012 11:13 AM

Cold Steel has a few interesting walking sticks. I have the African walking stick that I actually need to use as one on occasions when the bad lumbar disc acts up. It could be used as a defensive weapon if needed, but it's far from ideal.

pismopal 01-01-2013 7:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bohoki (Post 8610888)
i'm wondering if there is any blunt object can avoid that definition

Yes there is and it is very handy. A cane or walking stick is a superb form of protection and it is legal..even on commercial a/c. Mine is oak finished with tung oil. Techniques for use can be found online...free.

Ammodog 01-01-2013 3:40 PM

Anyone remember the PR-24 with built in flashlight from the early 80's. I remember the company rep coming into briefing the same week the Spyderco rep first came in. The PR-24 flashlight never got off the ground due to its obvious policy violation. Hard to convince admin that you would only use it as a flashlight.


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