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-   -   KTO 80% SIG P228 frames group buy is a go, if we get 100 frames commitment (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=556092)

nick 04-03-2012 9:44 PM

KTO 80% SIG P228 frames group buy is a go, if we get 100 frames commitment
 
I'm trying to gauge the interest in 80% SIG P228 frames. KTO used to make them up until 2004, I believe, and if enough interest is expressed, I'll contact him to see, if he'll be willing to make another run of them, and what the price would be. The parts are still out there (although I scooped up as much as I found :)).

I'm going to try and make one in .40, as well, if I get another frame (I have one of the old ones). Here's what the old ones look like (these aren't mine, just the images off the Internet):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/rjardy/228b.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6054/...4f9de421a8.jpg

I've no idea what the price might be, but we'll see what the interest is like first. I paid $270 for mine, but this was a rare 80% frame long since out-of-production. I would imagine, we might get the price down to around $250.

So, if you're interested, post the number of frames you would like, if this works out.

Updated to reflect that:

1. This is a go - the KTO guy will do a run of these frames, if there's a commitment of at least 100 frames. The price will be $250 per ALUMINUM frame. The info on steel frames will be added, as it's received. See post #22 for more details.

2. Per KTO, you can build SIG P228, P229, or P226 on his frames. P228s are obvious, I've read about people building P229s on these (and am planning to do it myself, too). I've never heard of anyone building a P226 on these frames. Hopefully, people more familiar with SIGs will chime in on the differences between these.

3. The lead time will be in months, as KTO needs to get ATF's approval for the design. He already has a frame to submit to them though.

4. Feel free to cross-post this on other forums.

5. I will ask MadRiverArms, if he wants to run this group by, if we get enough commitments. He ran the KTO 1911 frames group buy very well.

shocknm 04-03-2012 10:34 PM

I searched, but couldn't find any 80% p228 build threads out there.
What's involved to finish just the frame?

jrara 04-03-2012 10:36 PM

Aluminum or Steel?

nick 04-03-2012 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shocknm (Post 8340645)
I searched, but couldn't find any 80% p228 build threads out there.
What's involved to finish just the frame?

That would depend on how finished the new frames would be. In the old ones, one needed to cut the rails, drill and ream 2 holes, and do the general fitting/finishing. The fitting is easier than with a 1911, since SIG parts are supposed to be drop-in (and they mostly are). I don't know what the new frames (provided there's enough interest) might entail.

nick 04-03-2012 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrara (Post 8340657)
Aluminum or Steel?

The old ones are steel (as are the original P228 frames). The CNCGuns guy made an aluminum one, and it worked fine. We'll see what the KTO guy has to say, and how much interest this will generate.

Krill 04-03-2012 10:47 PM

interested, will do more research, but might be interested in 1.

njineermike 04-03-2012 10:57 PM

Is that the one from the guy on FALfiles?

jingerale 04-03-2012 11:12 PM

anyone have a ball park $$$ for a completed project?

ElectronWrangler 04-03-2012 11:54 PM

I'd be in for one.

Intimid8tor 04-04-2012 12:06 AM

I'd be in for one as well.

Krill 04-04-2012 5:00 AM

yeah, whats the ball park price of the rest of the parts?

MountainShooter 04-04-2012 8:07 AM

I would be interested depending on the cost and availability of the remaining parts to finish it.

762shooter 04-04-2012 8:46 AM

Same here, me and a few others are interested, but it would depend on cost and availability of parts to finish. Are p229 parts compatible with the p228?

nick 04-04-2012 8:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njineermike (Post 8340781)
Is that the one from the guy on FALfiles?

If you're talking about the pictures, possibly. I got them off Google images :)

And yeah, I saw a guy selling the frame and a Dlask kit on FALfiles for $350 last November... Quite a shame I didn't see it, he had it for sale for a while.

nick 04-04-2012 9:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingerale (Post 8340850)
anyone have a ball park $$$ for a completed project?

The ballpark would depend on your luck. For example, I bought one bag of small parts on Gunbroker for $200, and another bag with the same parts for $31. Unlike 1911s, you'll have to look for the parts. So take whatever numbers I give with a grain of salt. My estimate would be like this:

Frame - $250
Slide assembly - $250
Frame small parts - $70-100-150

You can get a used P228 for about the same price.

nick 04-04-2012 9:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 762shooter (Post 8341946)
Same here, me and a few others are interested, but it would depend on cost and availability of parts to finish. Are p229 parts compatible with the p228?

Some are, some aren't. Since you're building the frame, you have a bit more flexibility as to what will fit.

Personally, I'm planning to make one in .40 (if the frame holds that recoil), which involves P229 slide assembly, at the very least.

From what I've read, the main difference between P228 and P229 is in the slide assembly. P228 has a stamped slide, and while early P229s had a stamped slide, they moved to milled slides (to make way for higher pressure/recoil of .40). I haven't received my P229 slide, so I can't compare them side-by-side yet. I'll post the comparison when I do receive it.

The magwell is another thing. P229 mags are a bit wider, so while P228 mags would work in P229 (they'll just rattle a bit), P229 mags will not work in P228, unless you open up the magwell a bit. I've confirmed it with my KTO frame - P228 mags would fit too tight (had to file it a bit), and P229 9mm mags wouldn't fit at all. I'm planning to file some more to make them fit.

The frame parts should be the same.

As for the availability of parts, they're out there, from the likes of NUmrich and Top Gun Supply, and there's, of course, Gunbroker and Ebay (yep, people can sell most gun parts on Ebay now. I got both of my slides and barrels off Ebay). You'll have to be patient though, this isn't a project where you can get the frame from one established source, parts kit from another established source, and put it all together.

ptoguy2002 04-04-2012 10:57 AM

If the price is reasonable, and it will fit the Sig factory 22 conversion kit, I'd be in for one.

shocknm 04-04-2012 7:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick (Post 8342091)
... The magwell is another thing. P229 mags are a bit wider, so while P228 mags would work in P229 (they'll just rattle a bit), P229 mags will not work in P228, unless you open up the magwell a bit. I've confirmed it with my KTO frame - P228 mags would fit too tight (had to file it a bit), and P229 9mm mags wouldn't fit at all...

P226 mags fit the p228/229 (as seen on the web), but stick out

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/c...29-P226mag.jpg

goober 04-04-2012 7:41 PM

nick, as per our PMs i would be in on this for one or two and will pursue the idea w/ KTO if you haven't already.

peterabbits 04-04-2012 8:30 PM

I would be interested, probably would want to do 2.

762shooter 04-05-2012 12:25 PM

What about asking KTO to do a p229 80%? I see a lot of those sig x-change kits that should make finding an upper assembly very easy.

goober 04-05-2012 1:23 PM

Emailed KTO to ask about the possibility of P228 and/or P229 80% frames. I'll let you all know when I hear back.

ETA: Here's the word from Rick at KTO:
The good news:
He says he's up for doing a run of 80% Sig frames
He says the frames he makes can be used to make a P226, 228, or 229 (we'll see how nick does with his I guess, assuming it is the same kind of KTO 80%)
He would have to submit a frame for BATFE for approval before entering production, but he has one on hand that he could use for this (interestingly, it is one of two frames that THEY returned to HIM already, after his last court case, so they presumably would have no problem getting approval)
The not-so-good news:
He does not have any of the fixtures or programs to make them any more, so he would have to build/code from scratch
Because of this, he would need a minimum order of 100 parts @ $250/ea in order to make it worth doing, This would be the cost for aluminum 80% frames. Steel would cost more, although I don't know how much.

So the ball is in our court. If there is enough interest at that price point, we can make it happen. If we want to go down that road, the sooner we can let him know, so that he can submit the sample to BATF, the better.

Rooftop Voter 04-05-2012 5:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 762shooter (Post 8349682)
What about asking KTO to do a p229 80%? I see a lot of those sig x-change kits that should make finding an upper assembly very easy.

Do they only work the 229?

ElectronWrangler 04-05-2012 6:11 PM

In for 1 maybe 2

goober 04-05-2012 6:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WARDOG (Post 8351865)
Is KTO cool with payment in dollars?
He generally prefers silver or gold...or at least he used to.

nah, he realized that if he's going to stay in business in the U.S. he better accept FRNs. in fact he never really stopped doing so, despite what you might think by looking at his website (which is dismally out of date).
i've been a customer from way back when you used to pay by putting $$ on his WalMart card :cool:

MountainShooter 04-05-2012 7:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 8349995)
Emailed KTO to ask about the possibility of P228 and/or P229 80% frames. I'll let you all know when I hear back.

ETA: Here's the word from Rick at KTO:
The good news:
He says he's up for doing a run of 80% Sig frames
He says the frames he makes can be used to make a P226, 228, or 229 (we'll see how nick does with his I guess, assuming it is the same kind of KTO 80%)
He would have to submit a frame for BATFE for approval before entering production, but he has one on hand that he could use for this (interestingly, it is one of two frames that THEY returned to HIM already, after his last court case, so they presumably would have no problem getting approval)
The not-so-good news:
He does not have any of the fixtures or programs to make them any more, so he would have to build/code from scratch
Because of this, he would need a minimum order of 100 parts @ $250/ea in order to make it worth doing, This would be the cost for aluminum 80% frames. Steel would cost more, although I don't know how much.

So the ball is in our court. If there is enough interest at that price point, we can make it happen. If we want to go down that road, the sooner we can let him know, so that he can submit the sample to BATF, the better.

With this update, I would be in for 2 and possibly have a couple friends that would take one each. My total would be 4.
How much easier would these be to complete vs. the 1911 frames?

njineermike 04-05-2012 7:47 PM

2 more here.

nick 04-05-2012 7:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainShooter (Post 8352319)
With this update, I would be in for 2 and possibly have a couple friends that would take one each. My total would be 4.
How much easier would these be to complete vs. the 1911 frames?

They're as easy/easier t complete. Finding parts is harder though, at least, for P228. However, for P229 you can use the P229 caliber conversion kits in 9mm, .40, and .22lr for the upper parts, and the other parts are out there, you just need to either keep an eye out for good deals, or buy them separately (whcih can run expensive though).

I bought my parts off Ebay and Gunbroker, with the few leftover parts - from Numrich and Topgunsupply.

nick 04-05-2012 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 8349995)
Emailed KTO to ask about the possibility of P228 and/or P229 80% frames. I'll let you all know when I hear back.

ETA: Here's the word from Rick at KTO:
The good news:
He says he's up for doing a run of 80% Sig frames
He says the frames he makes can be used to make a P226, 228, or 229 (we'll see how nick does with his I guess, assuming it is the same kind of KTO 80%)
He would have to submit a frame for BATFE for approval before entering production, but he has one on hand that he could use for this (interestingly, it is one of two frames that THEY returned to HIM already, after his last court case, so they presumably would have no problem getting approval)
The not-so-good news:
He does not have any of the fixtures or programs to make them any more, so he would have to build/code from scratch
Because of this, he would need a minimum order of 100 parts @ $250/ea in order to make it worth doing, This would be the cost for aluminum 80% frames. Steel would cost more, although I don't know how much.

So the ball is in our court. If there is enough interest at that price point, we can make it happen. If we want to go down that road, the sooner we can let him know, so that he can submit the sample to BATF, the better.

Thank you for doing that, Pat!

I'm making a P228 out of the current frame, but I lined up another frame. We'll see, if I can make a P229 out of that one. I have the slide, a .40 barrel, and most of the small parts. I'll let you guys know how that works out, but that'll be in a couple of months or so.

762shooter 04-06-2012 8:11 AM

Count me in for at least 4 frames.

jingerale 04-06-2012 3:57 PM

I'm very interested. Can we also use this thread the to discuss possible resources to complete the frame?
Its hard enough to find a source to complete an ar 80% in NorCal. Any calgunner offering their expertise?

goober 04-06-2012 4:07 PM

Rick will be sending a sample to ATF on Monday for approval as a non-firearm. He says he expects anywhere from 30-90 days to get approval, but is optimistic that it will be on the low end, based on his recent experience.
Steel would be $300/each and he's not really open to mix/match for this first run. So we need to go either all aluminum or steel.

He estimates about 2 months from the time he is paid, and does not want payment until after ATF approval is received.

He said he's looking forward to this project!

intheknow 04-06-2012 4:15 PM

Is this only for the 228? may i request a 226 frame?

nick 04-06-2012 4:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingerale (Post 8356976)
I'm very interested. Can we also use this thread the to discuss possible resources to complete the frame?
Its hard enough to find a source to complete an ar 80% in NorCal. Any calgunner offering their expertise?

By all means. And I'll start tallying the total number of commitments this weekend.

nick 04-06-2012 4:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by intheknow (Post 8357077)
Is this only for the 228? may i request a 226 frame?

According to Rick at KTO, his frames should work for building a P226 (or P228, or P229). However, I've never heard of anyone building a P226 on it. Doesn't mean it didn't or can't happen, just that I couldn't find any info on it.

cmartin72 04-06-2012 5:43 PM

I will be in for 1, maybe 2.

bigcalidave 04-06-2012 10:55 PM

Parts list? Parts kit links?? Sounds fun, and I vote steel!

Lostsheep 04-06-2012 11:27 PM

In for two!

nick 04-06-2012 11:45 PM

Added a poll on whether you prefer a steel or aluminum frame. Personally, I want both, and I already have the steel ones.

Intimid8tor 04-06-2012 11:55 PM

I am in for 1, perhaps 2.


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