Calguns.net

Calguns.net (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/index.php)
-   Curio & Relic/Black Powder (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=84)
-   -   Have an Old Winchester? (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=410211)

TRAP55 03-18-2011 2:38 PM

Have an Old Winchester?
 
I have the newly updated dates of manufacture, and production numbers for Winchesters. Larry Shennum and Bert Hartman just compiled these dates from the Winchester Polishing Room records, and miles of microfilm converted to jpg. files.
The dates in the Blue Book, and any you find online, are based on the Madis data, and are severely flawed. Your "Antique" may be a C&R, or visa versa!:eek:
Post the model and serial number, use X's if you're worried about that stuff, but give me at least the first 3 digits, and I'll give you the DOM, and production numbers if I have them. A few models were not serial numbered, and a few there are no serial number records, but both have production numbers and the years produced.
Models list:
Henry Rifle, 1886, 1873, 1876, Hotchkiss Rifle, 1885, 1886, 1887, 1890, 1892, 1893, 1894, 1895, 1897, 1900, 1901, 1902, 99 Thumb Trigger, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906, 1907, 1910, 1911, 12, 20, 21, 24, 25, 36, 37, 40, 41, 42, 43, 47, 50, 52, 53, 54, 55 Lever, 55 .22, 56, 58, 59 .22, 59 shotgun, 60, 60A, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 67, 677, 68, 69, 697. 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 77, 88, 100, 190, 250, 270, 290

Reposting this to this thread so it doesn't get lost:
I've been asked more than once, why almost all the sources for Winchester manufacture dates, for all the various models of Winchesters, is flawed. This is the answer in short, with the reason for the importance of correcting it.

A man named George Madis compiled the Winchester DOM's after he salvaged the Winchester records from a dumpster. He gets major kudos for that!
Unfortunately, many of the records were destroyed or missing, so he simply made up the rest.
The Winchester collector world accepted his word on all things Winchester as gospel. Until recently!
My friend Bert Hartman among others started digging around in the Cody Museum basement, and discovered boxes full of microfilm containing all the Polishing Room Records. Some unknown hero had the forethought to record the records on microfilm.
Bert and others painstakingly transferred all the microfilm to jpeg. files.
The Polishing room is when and where each receiver got it's serial number. That is the actual "Date of Manufacture".
Depending on production demands, some serialed receivers made late in the year, "may have been" assembled and sold early in the next year.
Since the Madis information was never questioned, until now, it was taken as gospel and reprinted almost everywhere you seek the info.
The Blue Book of Gun Values has now been the first source to the public, to print the revised DOM's..... but the resistance to acknowledge this info is still strong.........it's still printed alongside the old Madis info.
Why the resistance to acceptance of the accurate information?
Serious Winchester collectors have a substantial investment wrapped up in their collections. When your valuable "Antique", suddenly becomes a less valuable "C&R", or your low number production year suddenly falls into a year that set a production record, you wouldn't want the unknowing sucker to see that, before you unloaded the rifle on him at a profit would you?
To others, I think it's like trying to tell them that everything they believed in, is now false, changing history if you will, so denial is how they cope with it.
I have joined with some others, with a determined mission to set the record straight...one Winchester at a time if we have to.
If you have one I haven't dated for you yet, feel free to ask and help correct history!
Post it here!

Peter W Bush 03-18-2011 2:49 PM

Tagged! Thanks!!

gadjeep 03-18-2011 2:56 PM

How about Model of 1892 sn#7124? Thanks!

M. D. Van Norman 03-18-2011 3:00 PM

I have relied upon Mr. Hartmanís data to determine that my Winchester 94s were manufactured in the 1950s. Is there new information?

TRAP55 03-18-2011 6:00 PM

Quote:

How about Model of 1892 sn#7124?
Third one made in 1893! 15683 made that year.
gadjeep, one of Bert's cohorts is doing a survey on 1892's like Bert has on the 1885's and 1894's. I'll see if I can get his contact info for you.

TRAP55 03-18-2011 6:04 PM

Quote:

I have relied upon Mr. Hartmanís data to determine that my Winchester 94s were manufactured in the 1950s. Is there new information?
Matt, I think all the 1894 data is the same, "maybe" updated with 1st year model dates/serial numbers, on caliber and configuration.

mosinnagantm9130 03-18-2011 9:32 PM

How about model 1902's? I can't find a serial number anywhere on it, but any info you have would be much appreciated.

TRAP55 03-19-2011 4:40 AM

Not serial numbered, made 1902-1931, 640,299 made.

jfwlb 03-19-2011 3:51 PM

Hey TRAP55,

How about this one: 1873, cal. 38-40(actually .38 WCF), ser. # 385577B

I used Madis numbers to find it was made around 1890. Is that what you show and can you tell me anything more about it?
John

TRAP55 03-19-2011 4:16 PM

Made 1891, 38,901 made that year. Made 1873 to 1933 with a total production of 720,610.
Your rifle is listed on the polishing room records, so there's a good chance it will letter from Cody.

jfwlb 03-19-2011 6:33 PM

Thanks! Even though it has been partially restored, and not real well, I think I will get it lettered. Thanks for the info.
John

tempdrummer 03-19-2011 7:31 PM

How bout

1897 serial 4067xx

GMG 03-19-2011 7:32 PM

Trap here's another one for you.
Winchester 1873 44wcf, serial # 499275B ?

TRAP55 03-19-2011 7:34 PM

Quote:

How are your records for a Model 1890 S/N 626332?
1919, 31,474 made that year, made 1890 to 1949, total produced 854,747.
Polishing room records yours too!

TRAP55 03-19-2011 7:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tempdrummer (Post 6038164)
How bout

1897 serial 4067xx

Early 1908, 39,667 made that year, 1,024,701 produced. PR records on yours.

TRAP55 03-19-2011 7:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMG (Post 6038169)
Trap here's another one for you.
Winchester 1873 44wcf, serial # 499275B ?

1895, 15,145 made that year. PR records yours.

tempdrummer 03-19-2011 7:54 PM

Pardon my newbness but what exactly are pr records and how would I obtain them?

TRAP55 03-19-2011 8:04 PM

PR = Polishing Room, I made that note from the list here, pretty good indicator your rifle will letter from Cody.
The letter can be as little as, when it left the polishing room and shipped, to sometimes any special features, if it was returned for repairs or modifications, and who it was shipped to.

tempdrummer 03-19-2011 8:41 PM

Ah. Thank you sir.

ancora 03-20-2011 9:20 AM

Octagon barrel 32-20 cal. SN. 424766B, sporter round barrel, 32-20 cal. SN. 295951B.

TRAP55 03-20-2011 10:39 AM

ancora, you got so focused on those serial numbers, you forgot the Model number!:D

Geologyjohn 03-20-2011 11:09 AM

Model 1873 carbine
 
Trap, can I hit you up also? I have a Model 1873 carbine that reportedly came off a ranch Oregon that is brown and worn and looks like it is was used to hunt Wooly Mammoths during the last Ice Ages. Nice wall hanger though. Serial number 548,536. Thanks, Geologyjohn

freonr22 03-20-2011 11:16 AM

ok, I'll try you :) model 54 30-06 with a Stainless barrel sn:31584a I the past i was under the impression it was a 1929? but I have zero data how many model 54's came with a stainless barrel, let alone that year

and thank you

TRAP55 03-20-2011 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geologyjohn (Post 6041053)
Trap, can I hit you up also? I have a Model 1873 carbine that reportedly came off a ranch Oregon that is brown and worn and looks like it is was used to hunt Wooly Mammoths during the last Ice Ages. Nice wall hanger though. Serial number 548,536. Thanks, Geologyjohn

John, yours made 1900, 14,629 made that year. PR records yours.
Is it a Carbine or Saddle Ring Carbine?
My '73 .44-40 SRC looked like it had been used for a grape stake, after hunting woolly mammoths! Obviously heavily used in a saddle scabbard, horse had cribbed half the buttstock off, you could still see the teeth marks on it!
Cleaned it up, replaced the stock with an original, and was surprised to find the action locked up tight as new! Kick to shoot, no recoil.
I learned a valuable lesson the hard way about 73's, while checking for function before I shot it. The 73 ejects "empty" cases up, back, and over your head with a bit of force. It does the same with a loaded round, except for one thing, ....a loaded round doesn't quite clear your forehead!:o :D

TRAP55 03-20-2011 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freonr22 (Post 6041085)
ok, I'll try you :) model 54 30-06 with a Stainless barrel sn:31584a I the past i was under the impression it was a 1929? but I have zero data how many model 54's came with a stainless barrel, let alone that year, and thank you

Made early 1930, 3395 made that year. Made 1925 to 1936, with only 50,145 made.
What version do you have? There was a standard, carbine, sniper, and super grade.
I don't have any info on the stainless barrels, but I know Bert dug up some. Next time I talk to him, I'll see what he has for you.

GMG 03-20-2011 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRAP55 (Post 6038225)
1895, 15,145 made that year. PR records yours.

Thank you TRAP55!

gadjeep 03-20-2011 12:47 PM

Sounds great. I'd love to collect more details about the old hammer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRAP55 (Post 6031619)
Third one made in 1893! 15683 made that year.
gadjeep, one of Bert's cohorts is doing a survey on 1892's like Bert has on the 1885's and 1894's. I'll see if I can get his contact info for you.


ancora 03-20-2011 12:57 PM

Model 1873 Winchester: octagon barrel, cal. 32-20, SN. 424766B
Model 1873 Winchester: sporter barrel, cal. 32-20, SN. 295951B

freonr22 03-20-2011 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRAP55 (Post 6041259)
Made early 1930, 3395 made that year. Made 1925 to 1936, with only 50,145 made.
What version do you have? There was a standard, carbine, sniper, and super grade.
I don't have any info on the stainless barrels, but I know Bert dug up some. Next time I talk to him, I'll see what he has for you.

trap, that was super nice of you!!! I would imagine a std grade, barrel is aprox 24", prolly was blackened @ one point, now raw stainless ( how i got it) has 2 tapped drill holes on side of rear receiver, drilled & tapped for redfield one piece mount on top (3 holes) currently has nikon monarch on it. checkering is flat. I dunno what a sniper grade is? thank you sooo much again

TRAP55 03-20-2011 1:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ancora (Post 6041615)
Model 1873 Winchester: octagon barrel, cal. 32-20, SN. 424766B
Model 1873 Winchester: sporter barrel, cal. 32-20, SN. 295951B

SN. 424766B, made 1892, 35,969 made that year
SN. 295951B, made 1889, 38,651 made that year, PR records on both.

Looking at this list of sterilized numbers, really gets you thinking.
Pretty amazing when you think how primitive things were in 1889, how complex an 1873 is, and they still produced over "38 THOUSAND" rifles that year!
And 122 years later, it was made well enough that it's still here, and probably in working condition. Think about it for a minute, how many other tools in your house right now are 122 yrs old?

TRAP55 03-20-2011 1:42 PM

Quote:

has 2 tapped drill holes on side of rear receiver, I dunno what a sniper grade is?
The Model 54 Snipers rifle had a carbine style barrel band w/sling swivel and.....a peep sight mounted on the rear receiver bridge.
Your rifle cost a whopping $53 in 1930, for most people at that time, that may well have been two months wages!
The Sniper model was $187 in 1932!

freonr22 03-20-2011 1:58 PM

2 Attachment(s)
it did come with a peep sight, maybe a pacific? still have somewhere, is this the barrel band you are referring to?

Attachment 90660

Attachment 90661

TRAP55 03-20-2011 2:32 PM

No, the band looks like a military band. That's the rear sight mounting boss.
The pics I'm looking at are photo copies, of jpg. images, taken from deteriorating microfilm.:eek:
From the pics, theres not a lot of difference between a stand and super grade, but the super grade appears to have a ramp front sight with a hood, a monte carlo stock, and a ebony or tenite forend cap.

freonr22 03-20-2011 2:34 PM

thank you!! it would appear that mine is a std grade, thank you again, what a fantastic resource you offer!! iin your spare time, if you happen to remember, how many ss were made would be totally awesome!! thank you again!!

Geologyjohn 03-20-2011 8:31 PM

Thank you Trap! This is a follow-up to your post of 12:35 today. To answer your question, mine is a Saddle Ring carbine. Gotta love these things! Love to know who owned it 110 years ago! Geologyjohn

TRAP55 03-21-2011 1:59 PM

WTH did you find longs?:confused: Were they the CCI CB longs? That's all I can find!:mad:
I picked up a nice little Remington #4 Rolling Block Takedown chambered in .22 short and long. The CB longs were okay, but the HiSpeed shorts worked better.

BTW gentleman, you are all most welcome for the info! It's been fun digging in these serial number records, I'm learning something too!
Writing this info down on a piece of paper, and slipping it under the buttplate for a future generation wouldn't be a bad idea.

TRAP55 03-21-2011 2:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freonr22 (Post 6042215)
thank you!! it would appear that mine is a std grade, thank you again, what a fantastic resource you offer!! iin your spare time, if you happen to remember, how many ss were made would be totally awesome!! thank you again!!

freonr22, just got off the phone with Bert, man talk about information overload!:eek: You get him started on Winchester stuff and your head will explode!
Anyhow, on the stainless barrels, made 1926-1930, and they made em for damned near all the models, shotguns too, and rare on most models...... but the most common one he has seen was on the model 54.
The barrels were painted with "Japan Black", and you rarely see one without at least half of it gone. He said Hoppes will take it off.
There hasn't been any data on how many were produced, or what they were produced for.
I learned something new today myself, with the exception of a few .22 models, Winchester stamped a two digit DOM on the bottom of the barrels, just in front of the receivers, from 1924-1955.

TRAP55 03-22-2011 2:51 PM

Quote:

As I recall, back in the 50's I used to buy any box of .22 ammo for something like 4 bits, at the hardware store in town.
And these youngsters just look at us funny when we talk about the good ol' days.:D
I remember getting peeved when the price of a brick of 500 shot up to $9!:eek:
Watch Wally World for the .22 shorts and CB shorts, for some reason they end up sitting on the shelf, and the price is almost reasonable. Sometimes they'll have the CB longs too. I don't think anyone even makes longs now, only the CB longs.

BruceR 03-22-2011 8:39 PM

Trap55,

What do you show for a Winchester model 1894 .30-30 lever-action saddle ring carbine, s/n 958603?

Thanks.

TRAP55 03-22-2011 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceR (Post 6058166)
Trap55,

What do you show for a Winchester model 1894 .30-30 lever-action saddle ring carbine, s/n 958603?

Thanks.

Made 1923, 13,208 made that year. PR records yours.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 7:56 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.