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-   -   ATTN FFLs: Rostering doesn't apply to intrafamily xfers from outside CA (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=137527)

bwiese 12-11-2008 3:13 PM

ATTN FFLs: Rostering doesn't apply to intrafamily xfers from outside CA
 
It seems quite a few FFLs are confused about handgun Rostering matters w/regards to certain interstate/ intrastate transfers.

Yes, you can't buy a non-Rostered nonexempt handgun from Joe Blow in Nebraska via Gunbroker and have it shipped to your CA FFL and DROSed to you. [We will avoid discussion of NRF frames here, as that's a separate matter.]

However, Rostering is not applicable for lineal intrafamily transfers (or inheritances) of non-Rostered nonexempt handguns.

Normally, lineal intrafamily transfers within CA do NOT need to use FFLs. Ensure your kid has a HSC card, hand the pistol to him, and tell him to fill out the DOJ form and pay $19 within 30 days (or whatever the fee is).




It gets more complex when the supplying family member is outside CA:
  • use of a CA FFL is only required to keep the *BATF* happy:
    guns can't move across state lines without an FFL (except
    for probate/inheritance)
  • despite above, there's still no *California* requirement to use
    an FFL for this matter: the intrafamily exemption says no
    licensed party required. (By that they mean FFL + DOJ CA license
    dealer)
[Formally inherited/bequested guns can cross state lines without usage of FFLs - and there's exemption in CA law for this too. Rostering not required.]

Thus, your dad/grandad/kid (lineal only) in Nebraska can ship the non-Rostered nonexempt handgun to your local CA FFL. The gun is DROSed+4473'd like a normal purchase - but on the DROS screen an exempt notation should be added: "12078PC intrafamily transfer".

It is helpful to the gun dealer if a (copy of a) letter can be added to his files for your transaction, specifying the exact gun, the lineal family relationship, and the names of the two parties:
"Gentlemen,

I want my grandson, Maximus Gunnie Jr., to
have my nice Colt 45 pistol, serial #12345.

Yours truly,
Grandma Biggie Gunnie
<date>"
That helps the FFL during any prospective DOJ audit.

This transaction is *not* a PPT: FFL fees are not restricted to $35, unlike PPTs, and the FFL can charge whatever he wants for the transfer.

The above information is not 'aggressive' and has even been told repeatedly to FFLs in the past by DOJ Firearms staffers. [Some DOJ Firearms phone clerk types do not understand this, however, and just may give a blanket answer, however.]

Here's the relevant law:
12132. This chapter ("Unsafe handgun" Rostering stuff) shall not apply
to any of the following:

(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Sec 12082
in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

Just says that private party transfers must go thru a licensed dealer
(meaning a CA FFL w/CA + local permits etc) and that Rostering is
not required for such PPTs.

(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from the
provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 12072 pursuant to any applicable
exemption contained in Sec 12078, if the sale, loan, or transfer complies
with the requirements of that applicable exemption to subdivision (d) of
Sec 12072.

Here it is... Rostering isn't required for guns exempt from PPT provision (12072(d))
due to a 12078 exemption. [The latter phrase "...if the sale, loan, or transfer ..."
just means that all the rules of the particular exemption from PPTing must be followed,
it's a bit of near-throwaway legalese.]

12078 is the section including a variety of exemptions from FFL use: intrafamily
transfer, inheritance, infrequent loan provisions, etc.


(c) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm as described in paragraph (3)
of subdivision (b) of Section 12125.

12125(b) just lists Roster exemptions for prototypes to be manufactured, imported,
submitted or analyzed for approval, exemptions for the anaylzing party, exemptions
for C&R handguns,exemption for LE agencies.


(d) The delivery of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed
upon the person to a person licensed pursuant to Sec 12071 for the purposes of
the service or repair of that firearm.

Doesn't need to be Rostered for in-CA repair/gunsmithing.


(e) The return of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed
upon the person by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 to its owner
where that firearm was initially delivered in the circumstances set forth in
subdivisions (a), (d), (f), or (j).

Doesn't need to be Rostered for return from in-CA repair/gunsmithing.

(f) <<<consignment/pawning exemptions from Rostering>>>

(g) <<<C&R exemption from Rostering, kinda duplicated>>>

(h) <<<Olympic pistol exemptions>>>



useful 12078PC exemptions include:

12078(c)(1) <covers intrafamily exemption to PPT procedures for firearms>
12078(c)(2) <covers intrafamily exemption to PPT procedures for *handguns*>
12078(c)(3) <define 'intrafamily': btwn grandparent/parent/child/grandchild>
12078(d) <covers 'infrequent loan' provisions>
12078(e) <yet another to/from gunsmithing exemption>
12078(f) <yes, you can send a gun to out of state FFL>
12078(i) <operation of law exemptions including inheritance/bequest>



CCWFacts 12-11-2008 3:33 PM

Wow. The roster is rapidly evaporating into a puff of oily smoke.

bwiese 12-11-2008 3:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCWFacts (Post 1776115)
Wow. The roster is rapidly evaporating into a puff of oily smoke.

The above has been known for a long time, unfortunately many FFLs are not aware of it.

Even the DOJ BoF will admit to the above when you get a more knowledgeable individual on the phone.

10001110101 12-11-2008 3:37 PM

Perhaps it's time to ask Grandma for a REALLY nice christmas present. :D

halifax 12-11-2008 4:15 PM

Yep. Done it a few times and this, Bwiese, is very good advice:

Quote:

It is helpful to the gun dealer if a copy of a letter can be added to his files for your transaction:
"Gentlemen,

I want my grandson, Maximus Gunnie Jr., to
have my nice Colt 45 pistol, serial #12345.

Yours truly,
Grandma Gunnie
<date>"

That helps the FFL during any prospective DOJ audit.

AlohaRover 12-11-2008 4:45 PM

So my wife can give her dad all of her SIG P250s?

glockman19 12-11-2008 4:59 PM

Bwiese,

Thanks for the clarification.

Fastnuf 12-11-2008 6:51 PM

bwiese, I appreciate you taking the time to clarify this for all of us. Thank you!

Librarian 12-11-2008 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlohaRover (Post 1776349)
So my wife can give her dad all of her SIG P250s?

Yes - but he better find 10-round mags for them, which, AFAIK, are only available for the .45 model.

And I said all of this in October.

Lead a horse to water....

bwiese 12-11-2008 10:57 PM

Thanks, Librarian.

I'd forgotten so soon - your post was excellent.

The issue/queries had just come up again, and I figured getting some directed FFL attention here might help.

Rumpled 12-11-2008 11:59 PM

Maximus!!

AlohaRover 12-12-2008 4:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Librarian (Post 1777487)
Yes - but he better find 10-round mags for them, which, AFAIK, are only available for the .45 model.

Lead a horse to water....

Turning the 9mm sub compacts into perm 10rds wont be an issue

But the receiving FFL can still refuse to receive it I guess.

DDT 12-12-2008 6:47 AM

Would you have to send the magazines through an FFL? Is there any reason you can't direct ship magazines? I thought they were like barrels and scopes and lower parts kits.

40caldeserteagle 12-12-2008 8:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDT (Post 1777960)
Would you have to send the magazines through an FFL? Is there any reason you can't direct ship magazines? I thought they were like barrels and scopes and lower parts kits.

Wouldn't they need at least one mag for the safety demonstration ?

David F.

bwiese 12-12-2008 8:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40caldeserteagle (Post 1778182)
Wouldn't they need at least one mag for the safety demonstration ?

David F.

Yup. A complete pistol needs to be equipped with a magazine.

It also needs to be sold with the magazine it's been tested with when Rostered (i.e, can't use an aftermarket replacement).

DDT 12-12-2008 9:05 AM

Thanks for the education. I guess that being a newbie I really don't have adequate understanding of just how screwed up our gun laws are. The only handgun I own was purchased from a retail shop in CA. If I ever inherit my dad's back-up service weapon I hope I can bring it in. What about bringing it in as frame-only and then re-building the gun at home? Do I still need an OEM magazine for safety demonstration?

bwiese 12-12-2008 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDT (Post 1778326)
If I ever inherit my dad's back-up service weapon I hope I can bring it in. What about bringing it in as frame-only and then re-building the gun at home? Do I still need an OEM magazine for safety demonstration?

You are able to be given or willed your dad's backup handgun without dealing with it as a NRF (non-Rosterable frame).

As I pointed out, intrafamily xfers are exempt from Rostering.

The safety demo for a non-Rostered pistol transferred to you thru PPT or exempt intrafamily transfer or inheritance would not have to have an OEM magazine.

It's unclear to me if the safety demo of a *Rostered* handgun needs a factory OEM mag, perhaps not - but not that relevant, since actual DROSing & pickup appear to likely require it.

PIRATE14 12-12-2008 12:08 PM

We've done several HGs through out of state intraF xfers.....which, correctly stated they are exempt from the roster....

Just make sure it's the right family member....

Pretty sure the 1 per 30 days doesn't apply either.....

shirow 12-12-2008 12:36 PM

My Mommy and Daddy live in Arizona. :D

DDT 12-12-2008 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwiese (Post 1778263)
Yup. A complete pistol needs to be equipped with a magazine.

It also needs to be sold with the magazine it's been tested with when Rostered (i.e, can't use an aftermarket replacement).

I guess that this had me a little confused. I see now where it says "sold" which doesn't apply to the topic of this thread. I "think" I understand now. Not that the law makes sense but I do understand it now anyway.

Fate 12-12-2008 12:42 PM

A good friend of mine just did this within the last month. He had been moaning about the pistol his dad wanted to give him that was off the roster and then I turned him on to Librarian's thread. Now he's got it and smiling from ear to ear. :D Now I need to see what I can shake loose from my old man back in Tx.

Fastnuf 12-17-2008 11:03 AM

Armed with all of the above information I contacted 6 FFL's (Unique, Royal, De Chiel, Gusslers, Discount and Turners who by the way doesn't do ANY out of state transfers anymore) in San Diego about doing my out-of-state intra family transfer of a non California roster hand gun, and each and everyone said it was not legal. I even quoted the info provided here but to no avail.

I had planned to wait until she came home on leave, but due to her husbands deployment schedule, we are unsure when she will be coming home.

So my question is, who here in San Diego has done an out of state intra family transfer what FFL did you use?

sfwdiy 12-17-2008 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwiese (Post 1775953)
Normally, lineal intrafamily transfers within CA do NOT need to use FFLs. Ensure your kid has a HSC card, hand the pistol to him, and tell him to fill out the DOJ form and pay $19 within 30 days (or whatever the fee is).

If you have a parent that lives out of state, can they come into California with the firearm, then give it to you while they're here using the above? Or does it have to go through an FFL anyway just because it's coming from out of state?

--Ben

ke6guj 12-17-2008 12:20 PM

Conventional wisdom says that because ATF does not allow for unlicensed individuals to transfer firearms between residents of different states. There is no federal intrafamily exemption to that. So, it is supposed to go through a CA FFL for federal reasons, not state.

Librarian 12-17-2008 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate (Post 1779000)
A good friend of mine just did this within the last month. He had been moaning about the pistol his dad wanted to give him that was off the roster and then I turned him on to Librarian's thread. Now he's got it and smiling from ear to ear. :D Now I need to see what I can shake loose from my old man back in Tx.

I hadn't seen that until today -- I'll take that as my Christmas present!

artherd 12-17-2008 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Rockso (Post 1794157)
Conventional wisdom says that it must go through an FFL no matter what. There are a couple of people who will claim that once it's given to them, it becomes theirs, and all that is required is the $19 DOJ fee. I don't know the law well enough to point out if/why this is incorrect, but I'd play it safe and do the FFL thing.

Parent would have to MOVE TO and not merely VISIT CA.

Turbinator 12-17-2008 3:00 PM

IMHO, this information is worth a sticky.

Turby

grammaton76 12-17-2008 4:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artherd (Post 1794332)
Parent would have to MOVE TO and not merely VISIT CA.

Or of course if your parent's in the military and has maintained CA as his/her home of record, I believe this would be a more or less perma "give it to him" situation provided they've sent the DOJ their $19.

My dad filled out the handgun reg form for a CZ-40P and waited for registration to come in, then handed it to me and I sent in a notice of intrafamiliar transfer.

Of course, even if the home of record thing didn't fly, he happened to have been re-stationed at Ft. Irwin immediately prior to the reg and subsequent transfer, so no big deal anyway.

Pont 12-20-2008 7:29 PM

I'm sure this is in a FAQ somewhere, but...

My grandfather and grandmother divorced. My grandfather remarried. He has passed away, as has my biological grandmother.

Does my step-grandmother count as a linear intrafamily transfer?

ZirconJohn 12-24-2008 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlohaRover (Post 1776349)
So my wife can give her dad all of her SIG P250s?

Nope! - Gonna ahave to ship all them Sig P250's to ME!

Ha! Just kidding... yes.

In a nutshell... this basic info, yet also a can of worms for obvious reasons;

Intrafamilial, heirloom transfers "up the ladder, or down the ladder, not across" as in sibling to sibling etc. are exempt from the CA DOJ Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale. Additionally, you may want to have your Dealer contact DOJ on specific items etc... it's common practice at my shop. I never take State or Federal Law for granted. We git-er done the right way.

65cobra 01-05-2009 1:22 PM

sorry if I just missed it in my reading. I live in Ca and my Dad lives in Idaho. What if he gives it to me while I am visiting in Idaho. So I am the owner and I travel accross the state line to get home. Then do I just send in the form?

ke6guj 01-05-2009 1:29 PM

He can't give it to you physically while you are in Idaho. That would be transfer between two unlicensed individuals of different states and would violate federal law.

In order to comply with federal law, he would need to deliver it (in person or shipped) to a CA FFL for you to DROS it from.

Wizard99 01-08-2009 3:39 PM

I would be willing to bet that most people in this country assume that their is a Federal family transfer. Since most states either have a familial transfer exemption or any person to person transfer doesn't have to go through a dealer people just assume that the same applies across state lines.

I think a lot of people all over the US are unknowningly comitting federal felonies.

Its to bad we can't push for a Federal familial transfer exemption on the basis that families in this day and age are spread out all over the country and most people assume that its leagal for their dad to give them grandpas old dear rifle even though they live in differant states.

thatrogue 01-12-2009 10:31 PM

My dad in texas needs to cap his xdm mags at 10 and gift it to me.

thatrogue 01-22-2009 9:37 PM

I have called a few houston area dealers and cant find one that will ship to my FFL here in Sacramento... Anybody know whom my dad can go to

ke6guj 01-22-2009 9:40 PM

Your father does not need to use a TX FFL to ship it to your FFL. It is legal for him to ship it directly to the CA FFL. Just confirm that your FFL will accept a shipment from a non-licensee.

thatrogue 01-22-2009 10:28 PM

Isn't it a federal requirement to ship thru a FFL... By the way my FFL Sonoma Firearms said that it needs to be a FFL to FFL.

ke6guj 01-22-2009 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thatrogue (Post 1935680)
Isn't it a federal requirement to ship thru a FFL...

nope, just that it be shipped to an FFL
Quote:

By the way my FFL Sonoma Firearms said that it needs to be a FFL to FFL.
that would not be correct per federal or state law. However, if he personally wants to only accept shipments from another FFL, that is he perogative.

ke6guj 01-22-2009 10:45 PM

Here is the info.
Quote:

Originally Posted by ATF FAQ
(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? [Back]


A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]


tba02 10-14-2009 3:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwiese (Post 1775953)
[Formally inherited/bequested guns can cross state lines without usage of FFLs - and there's exemption in CA law for this too. Rostering not required.]

I've read this thread more than once, but didn't catch the above until yesterday.

Hypothetically ...

1) I moved to CA in 2004

2) I have a gun that is in another state that I have stored, of which I am the owner.
2a) *if this even matters* This was an inherited item.

3) The roster, due to 2 or 2a does not apply.

Assumed to be true -
A) I can go to said location and, following applicable TSA laws, fly home with said item (assumption is yes, please correct me if I am wrong)
B) I can ship the item via common carrier to myself (why would I if A applies, however)

Question -
Can a non-owner/non-prohibited person ship this via common carrier, from the common carrier directly to myself w/o the need to ship to a CA FFL?

I would then have to adhere to CA laws and spend $19.00, of course.

Am I missing something by believing the above to be possible?

The point is that if one doesn't have to fly to the alternate location to retrieve the item, it could be shipped direct.
Having to go through an FFL makes the plane ticket a more economical choice.


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