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-   -   The 10/30 PMag - How To (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=120280)

AlohaRover 09-10-2008 5:43 PM

The 10/30 PMag - How To
 
Required materials:
30rd PMag
3/8" diameter rod, 5.10" long( ** I have been told by a couple people that on the new PMags this is too long and they are making their rods 4-5/8" long. I have not confirmed this. I would make the rod long. Reassemble and test. Cut a little off and repeat until it holds ten and only ten***)
1/8" diameter rod 1/2" long
2-part epoxy

Tools:
1/8" drill
hacksaw to cut the rods.

Disassemble the PMag. This is the underside of the follower. That C shape is part of the spring retainer and has an ID of 3/8" :D

http://www.evilblackrifleshop.com/im...uilds/pm01.jpg

Cut a piece of 3/8 rod to 5.1" long.
Insert into the C on the under side of the Follower.
yes this is a 20rd follower in the photo
http://www.evilblackrifleshop.com/im...uilds/pm02.jpg

Drill through the rod and both sides of the C with the 1/8 drill.
Drill at the red dot
http://www.evilblackrifleshop.com/im...ilds/pm021.jpg

Insert the 1/8" rod. Make it so that both ends of the rod are just below the surface
Coat with the mixed up epoxy
http://www.evilblackrifleshop.com/im...uilds/pm03.jpg

Let the epoxy fully cure.
Reassemble the magazine
http://www.evilblackrifleshop.com/im...uilds/pm04.jpg

Holds ten rounds and there is just enough room so you can still remove the base plate.

If you are at all worried cut the rod to 5.2" and then just trim until perfect.

No interference with the spring.

FEDUPWBS 09-10-2008 5:45 PM

SWEET. Great post Pete!

aplinker 09-10-2008 5:47 PM

Nice technique and beautiful write-up, unfortunately...

without sealing the floorplate there's potential this could be considered insufficiently permanant as a swap of followers would allow full capacity.

I would epoxy a limiter that impedes the follower onto the wall itself.

FEDUPWBS 09-10-2008 5:48 PM

Permanency (undefinable) is not a factor it clearly is NOT a high cap mag and thus is "permanent" enough for my taste and the letter of the law. I would not sell it as is but would use it in my own rifle and suggest it to my customers to build from a parts kit.


Comments Gene?

pdq_wizzard 09-10-2008 5:55 PM

so did you drill your finger? looks like blood on the bench :eek:

AlohaRover 09-10-2008 6:11 PM

it is blood, old project :D

One thought I have is to drill and pin the base plate in place. Make the pin a little short and fill the holes with epoxy?

I will do up another one, this time with blocks epoxied inside the mag body.
I know the correct length now.

I have also started a 10/20 conversion with the single rod up the middle method. I think the rod is 2.7" long for that one.

All I did was to attach the rod and leave it too long. Insert into mag, add ten rounds, mark rod at base of mag.

pdq_wizzard 09-10-2008 6:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlohaRover (Post 1513502)
it is blood, old project :D

thought so, just don't ask me how I know :43:

edwordsigh 09-10-2008 6:20 PM

The 'how to' I've been waiting for! AT LASTTT! Thanks AlohaRover!

joemama 09-10-2008 7:01 PM

I thought they made 10/30 pmags. why would you have to modify an actual 30 rounder?

gn3hz3ku1* 09-10-2008 7:06 PM

you modify them (30 rders) to become 10/30s its not factory...
where did you buy the rods from?

joemama 09-10-2008 7:29 PM

Oh, I thought they came made like that.

edwordsigh 09-11-2008 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joemama (Post 1513809)
Oh, I thought they came made like that.

Also because of the fact stores that make 10/30s charge 25-30 dollars per mag. So if you could buy a rebuild kit and if you have extra materials lying around... might as well try to save 15 dollars and make it yourself :]

NiteQwill 09-11-2008 10:24 AM

What kind of rods did you use?

AlohaRover 09-11-2008 7:12 PM

I have an assortment of carbon steel rods in my scrap bin. 1/8 up to 1"

But I would think that anything with the correct diameter is going to work just the same.

Aircraftspruce.com
look at their aluminum tube. They sell it by the foot.

6061T6 ALUM TUBE 3/8X.035 1FT is 1.70 a foot.

shark92651 09-11-2008 7:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uclaplinker (Post 1513423)
Nice technique and beautiful write-up, unfortunately...

without sealing the floorplate there's potential this could be considered insufficiently permanant as a swap of followers would allow full capacity.

I would epoxy a limiter that impedes the follower onto the wall itself.

This sparked a thought - if I take a plain-jane C Products 10 round magazine and replace the anti-tilt follower with a USGI follower without the long anti-tilt legs I imagine it would then hold 11 rounds. Is the 10 round magazine with the anti-tilt legs legal because it was never intended originally to hold > 10 rounds, but a large capacity magazine that is modified to hold 10, but can be converted back easily is illegal because it started out life as > 10?

NiteQwill 09-11-2008 8:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlohaRover (Post 1516755)
I have an assortment of carbon steel rods in my scrap bin. 1/8 up to 1"

But I would think that anything with the correct diameter is going to work just the same.

Aircraftspruce.com
look at their aluminum tube. They sell it by the foot.

6061T6 ALUM TUBE 3/8X.035 1FT is 1.70 a foot.

Thanks Pete!

Here's another link where you can buy by the foot and have it precut to length /w delivery!

http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant...=946&top_cat=0

Quick question, can you be more clear on exactly how you put the 1/8" x 1/2" rod on the bottom of the follower? Is it placed for structural support?

aplinker 09-11-2008 9:05 PM

http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant...09&top_cat=181

plastic is cheaper :)

Flat Broke 09-12-2008 10:03 AM

I'm not sure if I understand the reasoning behind sealing a 10/20 or 10/30 magazine. The law doesn't address possession of high caps, just construction, sale, etc. If it is legal for me to import rebuild kits for the purpose of making them 10 rounders like when you cut a Pmag body for 10 rounds, how is it any less legal for the modications shown, so long as that in no point during the assembly of parts did you have a situation where the magazine could feed more than 10 rounds? I understand the premise of CYA, but in the instance of 10/20 or 10/30 mags, so long as the modification is permanent while the magzine is assembled, why is there a need to seal the mag? To keep the magazine in that configuration in the event it was confiscated by uninformed or ill informed LEOs? That's the only reason I can see.

Assuming that the rod stays pinned and epoxied to the follwer in perpetuity, the only way to make the mag feed more than 10 rounds is to remove the follower/rod, and substitute a standard follower. This is construction of a high capacity magazine and illegal, but merely having parts on hand doesn't break the law. Additionally, I'f I'm going to buy a host of mags and do this mod, it would make sense to buy a matching number of followers so I could hold more than 20 rounds when out of state. Sealing the magazine or otherwise altering the body so it can't be used in a 20 round configuration outside CA deprives me that economic benefit.

Another argument can be found in loading 6.5 or 6.8 into 5.56 mags. If the magazine can only hold 10 or less of the larger rounds, my understanding is that it's legal. But if employed to hold more than 10 rounds of 5.56, and was acquired after the ban it's an illegal situation. The difference between the two states of legality has no indication of permanent modification to the body of the magazine.

I have no question on the legallity of the modified mag, merely the idea that the body needs to be compromised in some fashion to impart permanence. This is an issue we should really get better clarification and consensus on as a community.

Chris

DDRH 09-17-2008 7:43 AM

Awesome, finally a how to on 10/30...thanks a bunch AlohaRover!

:D

Flat Broke 09-21-2008 9:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shark92651 (Post 1516766)
This sparked a thought - if I take a plain-jane C Products 10 round magazine and replace the anti-tilt follower with a USGI follower without the long anti-tilt legs I imagine it would then hold 11 rounds. Is the 10 round magazine with the anti-tilt legs legal because it was never intended originally to hold > 10 rounds, but a large capacity magazine that is modified to hold 10, but can be converted back easily is illegal because it started out life as > 10?

Good question, Goes back to if you stuff <10 rounds of larger caliber ammo into a 20 rounder, is the mag illegal? I don't know off the top of my head, but I'm assuming you can't fit more than 10 grendel, 6.8, and beowulf rounds in a 20 rounder. If that's the case, is buying a 20 round mag and loading to capacity with less than 10 rounds of ammo illegal? The mag could hold 20 rounds of 5.56, but if I bought it with the intent to use it for one of the other calibers, does the intent suffice? If so, then a modded 20 or 30 is equally as legal without permanent modification as the afore mentioned 20 rounder that holds 10 or less larger caliber rounds isn't permanently modified.

No one wants to be a test case, but if I'm going to buy 20 rounders to convert I want to be able to run std followers when out of state (in NV). My interpretation would be that modifying the magazine in the fashion that aloharover did and not securing the floorplate is fine, because you would have to "manufacture" a new ammunition feeding device by replacing the follower/rod with a new follower. That action is illegal. Merely having the mag and/or parts isn't.

I'd still love a sanity check from Bill or Gene on this one.

Chris

aplinker 09-21-2008 11:30 PM

It gets worse than that... if you can open the floor plate and shove a few rounds in the bottom of, say, a 10/20 you're holding more than 10rds. The current definition does not define the ability to feed all rounds of the capacity as a magazine capable.

Again, with the DOJ abdicating their responsibility and ability to define, I would argue we have a wide degree of latitude here. If they're unwilling to say what "permanent" means, what exactly is a 10rd mag, etc. the argument could be made we're in the clear just by something simple - like what's done with hunting shotguns.

Which, again, leads us back to doing what you're comfortable with as sufficiently "permanent."

AlohaRover 09-22-2008 5:05 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by NiteQwill (Post 1517111)
Quick question, can you be more clear on exactly how you put the 1/8" x 1/2" rod on the bottom of the follower? Is it placed for structural support?

Sorry, missed this question.

I just laid the follower/rod combo on the table of my drill press, just imagine the following photo the thing is on the drill press, on top of a piece of wood so I could drill all the way through.

Drilled where the red dot is.

Pete

DDRH 09-22-2008 8:05 AM

anyway we can get this thread stickied?

trinydex 09-22-2008 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat Broke (Post 1546990)
Good question, Goes back to if you stuff <10 rounds of larger caliber ammo into a 20 rounder, is the mag illegal? I don't know off the top of my head, but I'm assuming you can't fit more than 10 grendel, 6.8, and beowulf rounds in a 20 rounder. If that's the case, is buying a 20 round mag and loading to capacity with less than 10 rounds of ammo illegal? The mag could hold 20 rounds of 5.56, but if I bought it with the intent to use it for one of the other calibers, does the intent suffice? If so, then a modded 20 or 30 is equally as legal without permanent modification as the afore mentioned 20 rounder that holds 10 or less larger caliber rounds isn't permanently modified.

No one wants to be a test case, but if I'm going to buy 20 rounders to convert I want to be able to run std followers when out of state (in NV). My interpretation would be that modifying the magazine in the fashion that aloharover did and not securing the floorplate is fine, because you would have to "manufacture" a new ammunition feeding device by replacing the follower/rod with a new follower. That action is illegal. Merely having the mag and/or parts isn't.

I'd still love a sanity check from Bill or Gene on this one.

Chris

this was discussed before. you could use the ".50 beowolf mags" and get even more capacity but you'd have to have a beowolf upper to justify possessing the beowolf mags. it also wouldn't help for your beowolf mags to say 5.56/.223 on the side

Flat Broke 09-22-2008 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinydex (Post 1548223)
this was discussed before. you could use the ".50 beowolf mags" and get even more capacity but you'd have to have a beowolf upper to justify possessing the beowolf mags. it also wouldn't help for your beowolf mags to say 5.56/.223 on the side

If you've got a link, I'd love to read the discussion. I hear what your saying about having the beowulf upper to "justify" having the beowulf mags, but it certainly isn't law. Lots of folks have mags for guns they don't own. It was the only way to make sure you'd have said mags when you could actually afford the rifle.

I've got some magpul 20 repair kits inbound, so I'd like to get a better standing on this. Otherwise, I'll probably just whack em to 10 rounders and call it done.

Chris

trinydex 09-22-2008 2:10 PM

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...owulf+magazine


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=92480

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=78765

Flat Broke 09-22-2008 3:17 PM

Thanks for the links. I don't want to derail this thread further, with the alternative caliber scenario, so for now, I'll stick to the question of permanance required for 10/30 and 10/20 mags. Does anyone else have a take on why or why not the mag should be sealed at the floorplate.

Further, if the mag is sealed at the floorplate with epoxy, is there need to alter the body further once the rod has been pinned/epoxied?

Chris

AlohaRover 09-22-2008 5:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat Broke (Post 1548728)
Thanks for the links. I don't want to derail this thread further, with the alternative caliber scenario, so for now, I'll stick to the question of permanance required for 10/30 and 10/20 mags. Does anyone else have a take on why or why not the mag should be sealed at the floorplate.

Further, if the mag is sealed at the floorplate with epoxy, is there need to alter the body further once the rod has been pinned/epoxied?

Chris

Chris,
after getting the mags, if you look at them you will see how the lips of mthe floor plate wrap up around the sides of the mag.

Just lay the mag on its side and drill right through the floor plate and mag body with a 1/8" drill bit. Cut some 1/8" rod so that when inserted in the hole its just below flush on each side. Fill this remaining space with some epoxy. The pin will lock the floor plate lock in place.

If you later move or get your laws changed you can use an xacto knive to dig out the epoxy, pop out the pin.
Remove the floor plate and fill the holes with epoxy.

Flat Broke 09-22-2008 5:28 PM

That's a pretty good compromise, I'd like to have 20 round access for when I'm in NV, but I guess I can just practice more mag changes with 10 round capacity mags :)

I didn't see it in this thread, but do you have a length for the rod in a 20 round mag body?

Thanks,
Chris

JeffM 09-22-2008 5:31 PM

I think someone just needs to ask the DOJ what "permanently" means.








:rofl2::rofl:

Damn, sometimes I crack myself up.

Flat Broke 09-22-2008 6:10 PM

I'm sure you'd get an answer... ;)

Chris

DDRH 10-02-2008 9:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlohaRover (Post 1513408)
Required materials:
30rd PMag
3/8" diameter rod, 5.10" long
1/8" diameter rod 1/2" long
2-part epoxy

Tools:
1/8" drill
hacksaw to cut the rods.

Disassemble the PMag. This is the underside of the follower. That C shape is part of the spring retainer and has an ID of 3/8" :D

http://www.evilblackrifleshop.com/im...uilds/pm01.jpg

Cut a piece of 3/8 rod to 5.1" long.
Insert into the C on the under side of the Follower.
http://www.evilblackrifleshop.com/im...uilds/pm02.jpg

Drill through the rod and both sides of the C with the 1/8 drill.
Insert the 1/8" rod. Make it so that both ends of the rod are just below the
surface

Coat with the mixed up epoxy
http://www.evilblackrifleshop.com/im...uilds/pm03.jpg

Let the epoxy fully cure.
Reassemble the magazine
http://www.evilblackrifleshop.com/im...uilds/pm04.jpg

Holds ten rounds and there is just enough room so you can still remove the base plate.

If you are at all worried cut the rod to 5.2" and then just trim until perfect.

No interference with the spring.





Where does the 1/8" Rod go? would you happen to have more detailed pix? Where do you drill? drill the length of the rod? or across it (diameter wise)?

40caldeserteagle 10-02-2008 9:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTXR390 (Post 1580058)

Where does the 1/8" Rod go? would you happen to have more detailed pix? Where do you drill? drill the length of the rod? or across it (diameter wise)?

The answers are in the post you quoted. If you look closely at the second to last pic, you can see the 1/8" rod butting up against the follower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlohaRover (Post 1513408)

Drill through the rod and both sides of the C with the 1/8 drill.
Insert the 1/8" rod. Make it so that both ends of the rod are just below the surface
Coat with the mixed up epoxy


DDRH 10-02-2008 1:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40caldeserteagle (Post 1580077)
The answers are in the post you quoted. If you look closely at the second to last pic, you can see the 1/8" rod butting up against the follower.

So where do i drill through the rod at? Sorry, i'm pretty visual, gotta see from all angles. I don't have any Pmags i can tear apart yet, so i'm not as familiar with the lines or physicality of each part.

What's the drilling for?

I just figured, you used the 5.1" rod and epoxy it to the follower, and that would be enough.

thanks for ya'lls patience and answers


:chris:

trinydex 10-02-2008 2:38 PM

i think it's the way to "pin" the rod to the follower and then use epoxy to make that pinning "permanent." i think this is going along with riveting and epoxy which is what's been found to be acceptable in some case somewhere that hoffmang posted.

DDRH 10-03-2008 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinydex (Post 1580851)
i think it's the way to "pin" the rod to the follower and then use epoxy to make that pinning "permanent." i think this is going along with riveting and epoxy which is what's been found to be acceptable in some case somewhere that hoffmang posted.


so the 1/8" diameter x 1/2" rod is the pin? and it goes through the "C" part of the follower and through the 3/8" diameter x 5.1"?

Coo, thanks Trinydex...i think i know what ya'll talkin bout now. appreciate the clarification.

-GT

AlohaRover 10-03-2008 3:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTXR390 (Post 1580058)
Where does the 1/8" Rod go? would you happen to have more detailed pix? Where do you drill? drill the length of the rod? or across it (diameter wise)?

Please see the photo in post 22.

Put the limiting rod into the C of the follower. Lay it on the drill press table, drill at the red dot.

Pete

DDRH 10-08-2008 9:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlohaRover (Post 1584390)
Please see the photo in post 22.

Put the limiting rod into the C of the follower. Lay it on the drill press table, drill at the red dot.

Pete


aaahhhh....my apologies, i missed that. Thanks for the great info and tutorial!

;)

TZL 10-08-2008 11:37 AM

thanks for the how to, AlohaRover, do you sell pmag 30 kits so I can build my own 10/30s according to your how to?

thanks,

TZL


Quote:

Originally Posted by AlohaRover (Post 1584390)
Please see the photo in post 22.

Put the limiting rod into the C of the follower. Lay it on the drill press table, drill at the red dot.

Pete


AlohaRover 10-08-2008 5:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TZL (Post 1598062)
thanks for the how to, AlohaRover, do you sell pmag 30 kits so I can build my own 10/30s according to your how to?

thanks,

TZL

www.EvilBlackRifleShop.com/store

20s and 30s are 13.50ea

Black are in stock, other colors are getting ahrder to get.


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