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-   2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=330)
-   -   9/19/2013 CGF Files New Federal Civil Rights Lawsuit to Stop DOJ's DROS Delay Policy (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=656150)

Gabriel80 01-05-2013 9:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citadelonline (Post 10122656)
I'd like to hear from, in this thread or a separate thread, individuals who have DROS'd a firearm with no conflicts, delays or questionable denials during the recent time period in question.
A little balance might be useful in characterizing the proportionality, extent and relative number of processing issues being experienced.

Me too! Anyone pick up an AR or AK when they're supposed to? Anyone dros anything at the end of 2012 and get it in 10 or 11 days?

I've never been convicted of a crime. I own 5 firearms, the last one I drosed was delayed by 1 (or 2?) days, which was far early last year (pre panic and back up). I believe the delay was a mistake, or "just making sure" as DOJ said.

I've got my 6th firearm in jail right now (my first "black rifle") and for some reason I'm paranoid it will be caught up in delay. I really have nothing that would make me inelligible from clearing but we all know how busy DOJ is.

My pick up date is Jan 14th and I'm pretty excited/nervous, anyone care to share a recent, positive and smooth, normal experience?

Dustyzz 01-06-2013 12:01 PM

Well my wife,sister-in-law, and brother-in-law all bought their first hand guns in December and had no dros issues... I on the other hand am now on day 21 of the dros process. I am assuming my delay is because of a misdemeanor assault conviction from 1982 ( I was 21 and got into a bar fight , I got 6 months unadjudicated probation but as I understand this will still show up as a conviction.) However I have no way to confirm why I am on DROS delay since the DROS department isn't accepting calls. I guess the issue that I have with the CA DOJ is that the DROS department isn't taking calls until January 14th (maybe or maybe not) so I am literally being denied my 2A rights without any method of appeal or recourse. I understand the need to keep firearms out of bad guys hands but this is bordering on abusing the rights of law abiding citizens.

Hoooper 01-08-2013 9:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citadelonline (Post 10122656)
I'd like to hear from, in this thread or a separate thread, individuals who have DROS'd a firearm with no conflicts, delays or questionable denials during the recent time period in question.
A little balance might be useful in characterizing the proportionality, extent and relative number of processing issues being experienced.

I picked up on 1/2/13, no issues or delays at all

scsurfer 01-08-2013 10:49 AM

I bought a gun in November. No problem. Bought one on the 28th of dec. and it is in delay. If there was a problem wouldn't it have come out on the first purchase in nov. I called yesterday and left a message. I got a call today saying that the back ground check needed to be investigated. And they will not look at my case until the. 15th and it could be even longer. There has got to be some bump that test the 2 amendment. Could we see a huge law suit against the state?

brandon1234 01-08-2013 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scsurfer (Post 10146976)
I bought a gun in November. No problem. Bought one on the 28th of dec. and it is in delay. If there was a problem wouldn't it have come out on the first purchase in nov. I called yesterday and left a message. I got a call today saying that the back ground check needed to be investigated. And they will not look at my case until the. 15th and it could be even longer. There has got to be some bump that test the 2 amendment. Could we see a huge law suit against the state?

No criminal history? Sometimes it seems that some state employees might investigate things others were not concerned with. If that makes any sense?

JoeyJ 01-08-2013 11:12 AM

Purchased in July 12 no problem, purchased a Ruger SR22 on Dec 31st and just got a call from the dealer that I was delayed. called BOF number and it's just a outgoing message to call their general info number. Left a message there but sure if I get any reply it will be that I'm delayed pending further investigation. I can understand that they want to make sure I haven't been arrested or been convicted in the last 6 months so I'll practice some patience and "assume" it's just for backlog reasons and not any other. I can understand that under the current circumstances, the last thing they want is to make a mistake on one person and have it come back to haunt all of us. Any idea if this is just a CA issue?

UPDATE: 1/8/13 2:25pm Unfortunately I missed the call but did get a call back from BOF. Basically the generic message, "it's our busiest time of the year, increased demand, doesn't mean you've been denied, may be something that needs documents from the courts to resolve and a call back number". Very friendly woman. Started out by saying she could only provide general info. Also said if I haven't heard anything by the 14th to call back. My get out of jail date was the 10th so not a huge wait.

dcannon003 01-08-2013 11:53 AM

my firearms purchase has been delayed since 10/8/2012...i went ahead and got my firearms record review and was told theres theres a couple arrests on my record frm 20 and 30 yrs ago...both dismissed...i have in the last month received my Utah and Florida CCW permits...an attorney told me to just wait for them to release my purchase...that was 2 months ago...the firearms record review came wth a blank form "claim of alleged inaccuracy or incompleteness"...but i dont want make any mistakes or fill it out wrong and make things worse...i live in the SFV...anybody kno what i should do?

sevendayweekend 01-08-2013 2:14 PM

i have a question regarding dros denials -

if the buyer of a firearm is delayed through the dros process what becomes of the firearm? can the seller get it back?


also, would a buyer that has had their dros delayed have to reapply & pay every 30 days until finally getting the thumbs up?


thanks for any input

gigglemonkee 01-08-2013 2:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sevendayweekend (Post 10148890)
i have a question regarding dros denials -

if the buyer of a firearm is delayed through the dros process what becomes of the firearm? can the seller get it back?


also, would a buyer that has had their dros delayed have to reapply & pay every 30 days until finally getting the thumbs up?


thanks for any input

The 30 days is frozen while delayed. Once it comes back ok you have 30 days to pick up. I have been on delay since the 19th and asked the same thing. Funny is I got my 03ffl two weeks earlier and picked up a gun on the 18th

dcannon003 01-08-2013 3:16 PM

is that ph # to contact the calif DOJ firearms purchasing 916 227 3752 or 3747 ?

sevendayweekend 01-08-2013 3:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcannon003 (Post 10149500)
is that ph # to contact the calif DOJ firearms purchasing 916 227 3752 or 3747 ?

the # they say to call now is 916-227-7527


thanks for the input monkee
how do you find out when you are clear? does the ffl call the buyer, or does the buyer have to check with the ffl periodicly?

gigglemonkee 01-08-2013 3:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sevendayweekend (Post 10149675)
the # they say to call now is 916-227-7527


thanks for the input monkee
how do you find out when you are clear? does the ffl call the buyer, or does the buyer have to check with the ffl periodicly?

I was told to call back regularly and check but that the ffl is supposed to call you

sevendayweekend 01-08-2013 3:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gigglemonkee (Post 10149834)
I was told to call back regularly and check but that the ffl is supposed to call you

cool, thanks

S2000 01-08-2013 5:19 PM

I DROS'd an AR-15 on 12/16 and a CZ 75 Handgun on 12/22 and picked up both without issue.

Frozenguy 01-08-2013 9:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gigglemonkee (Post 10089015)
Just called again 2 weeks into delay and have been told I just have to wait and the analysts will get to it when they get to it. Also any firearm purchases I do in meantime will automatically go into delay as well.

This is not exactly accurate. I have put in 4 different DROS.
First got delayed.
Second had no delay and all three fire arms were released to me
Third was delayed.
Fourth I have heard no word yet, still five days left on wait. We'll see.

All different stores, two are ppt's.
Interestingly enough, the two delayed dros were for AR rifles/lowers. The ones released were not AR type.

gigglemonkee 01-08-2013 9:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozenguy (Post 10153445)
This is not exactly accurate. I have put in 4 different DROS.
First got delayed.
Second had no delay and all three fire arms were released to me
Third was delayed.
Fourth I have heard no word yet, still five days left on wait. We'll see.

All different stores, two are ppt's.
Interestingly enough, the two delayed dros were for AR rifles/lowers. The ones released were not AR type.

Mine is for a cz75 that is a ppt. I think it is linked to an open parking ticket because I cannot find anything else in my past that would affect it.

HOGDOG1955 01-09-2013 10:33 AM

picked up a pistol yesterday and for the 2 hours i was there talkin people came pickin up, all on time, including ars

thehummerguy 01-09-2013 12:11 PM

My buddy who bought an AR from me has been on Hold since before the shooting...DOJ refused to tell him why as they cannot verify who he is over the phone, I have called only to be told "there is nothing he can do, it's our problem to find out why he is denied" I asked if he in fact can call to at least talk with the person handling his file...NO she said, lately the phones are forwarded to another dept because as DOJ stated " they are back logged"

My buddy now wants to cancel the deal....can I call the dealer and have them cancel the DROS process and get the Gun back without a DROS on myself?

PlayHard 01-09-2013 12:45 PM

On my 80th day in DROS now. My buddy who is a State Investigator pulled my record and there is nothing, at this time, that would prevent my approval.

frankm 01-09-2013 12:50 PM

Drosed a pistol, ten days, no problem.

grant d 01-10-2013 9:37 PM

Message

Message
My recent firearm transfer (10/30/2012) has been delayed. The reason i was told was a change in criteria because of a arrest in 1994( no conviction no trial and no disposition)Not to make light of this arrest,but the case had no merit as i was certainly the victim Please excuse my honesty if inappropriate) the records and any court documents of that arrest including any disposition has been purged. I have had a successful transfer of a handgun as recent as july of 2012. I have received fom your clerk a petition to seal and destroy adult arrest records but these records have been purged.(Your clerks response was to contact my assemblyman? in my district.) futhermore I was told although there was a delay on this purchase I could still legally possess firearms.OK There being no reason to believe prior to this delay (transfer in july of 2012) I completed a sale on gun brokers.com from a FFL for the amount of $1300.00 on 10/30/2012 The firearm was shipped to a local FFL. There is no returning this Firearm as all sales are final. OK im all about sealing arrest records so i can be able to PURCHASE firearms in the future,since i am able to possess firearms according to the DOJ,i would prefer to go FORWARD by having this transfer started again in my spouses name. MY FFL dealer says he cannot do this without something in writing from the DOJ verifing I can posess firearms (because we reside at the same address)to satisfy ATF regulations paperwork? (straw purchase??)Please give my situation the attention it deserves. THANK YOU!! Sincerely, Grant M. Dorsey

Citadelonline 01-10-2013 10:55 PM

Quote:

The reason i was told was a change in criteria because of a arrest in 1994( no conviction no trial and no disposition)Not to make light of this arrest,but the case had no merit as i was certainly the victim Please excuse my honesty if inappropriate) the records and any court documents of that arrest including any disposition has been purged.
The CA DOJ has been asking for the final dispositions of arrest records when it can not determine one from their records.

Whether the case had merit or not is irrelevant. If the arrest record was expunged, the state may still be able to see the arrest but not the final disposal of your case.
Was the arrest in CA? If so contact a CA attorney who will be able to petition the court for the appropriate record that shows you were not convicted of a crime.

In my opinion this would be more productive and safer than requesting a formal opinion from the DOJ as to your legal status regarding the possession of a firearm.

Frozenguy 01-11-2013 7:57 AM

Woo hoo!! My S&W MP15 :gunsmilie: lowers have finally been released to me after 14 days past the 10 day wait. :60:
Just waiting for a call from the other store releasing my KD lowers. :toetap05:

tcrpe 01-11-2013 8:13 AM

"Change in Criteria"

clbshooter 01-11-2013 1:49 PM

I also want to know what "change in criteria" means. What the DOJ is doing should be against the law PERIOD.

mrdd 01-11-2013 1:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clbshooter (Post 10181480)
I also want to know what "change in criteria" means. What the DOJ is doing should be against the law PERIOD.

Unfortunately, it does not appear to be against the law.

The law merely states the minimum waiting period, but there is no statutory maximum.

wildhawker 01-11-2013 2:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdd (Post 10181502)
Unfortunately, it does not appear to be against the law.

The law merely states the minimum waiting period, but there is no statutory maximum.

We don't agree with your analysis.

-Brandon

PlayHard 01-11-2013 2:43 PM

82nd day in DROS and got a call from my DOJ contact. We have been waiting on an update in DOJ records so the DROS can be approved. To date (from Oct 22 2012) DOJ records have not been updated . . . DROS is still in delay. Contacted a Calguns recommended attorney and told to file a Form 8706 - “Claim of Inaccuracy or Incompleteness”, with a certified copy of my local court change in status. All this could be another long wait, but I am fighting for my 2nd Amendment right as a legal person who can own a firearm.

mrdd 01-11-2013 2:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildhawker (Post 10181793)
We don't agree with your analysis.

-Brandon

I hope I am wrong, but I cannot see where a maximum is spelled out in the law.

I guess it would be asking too much for you to explain?

BumBum 01-11-2013 3:01 PM

I DROS'd an AR-15 just before Christmas, and picked it up without delay on 1/2/13. Not even a delay with two state holidays during the waiting period.

kemasa 01-11-2013 5:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdd (Post 10182108)
I hope I am wrong, but I cannot see where a maximum is spelled out in the law.

I guess it would be asking too much for you to explain?

I am not a lawyer, but how would you feel if the CA DOJ just started marking every single DROS as delayed? Do you think that would be a problem? If that is a problem, then what percentage would not be a problem? There needs to be a valid reason for the delay, not just that they have not gotten around to it. As far as I know, they don't have any proof of a problem, but they are attempting to force people to prove that they are innocent.

mrdd 01-12-2013 3:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kemasa (Post 10183454)
I am not a lawyer, but how would you feel if the CA DOJ just started marking every single DROS as delayed? Do you think that would be a problem? If that is a problem, then what percentage would not be a problem? There needs to be a valid reason for the delay, not just that they have not gotten around to it. As far as I know, they don't have any proof of a problem, but they are attempting to force people to prove that they are innocent.

I understand. Let me be more specific: what they are doing does not appear to violate the state laws concerning the waiting period. I understand it likely violates various parts of the U.S. Constitution: equal protection, due process, as well as rights under the 2nd amendment.

Challenging the constitutional aspects is fairly involved, as we all know.

SpaceMan 01-12-2013 8:21 AM

I DROS'd a couple firearms this year, no problems at all. I've also sold a couple firearms this year and the buyers have had no such issues. My last DROS was in November, I am going for another DROS on Monday for a lever action.

A buddy if mine in AZ recently purchased a handgun. He received a DELAY. As far as I understand, DOJ only has 48 hours to either release the firearm into your possetion or deny you. If they do not contact the FFL in 48 hours the FFL has to release the firearm to you.

Gabriel80 01-12-2013 8:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceMan (Post 10189008)
I DROS'd a couple firearms this year, no problems at all. I've also sold a couple firearms this year and the buyers have had no such issues. My last DROS was in November, I am going for another DROS on Monday for a lever action.

A buddy if mine in AZ recently purchased a handgun. He received a DELAY. As far as I understand, DOJ only has 48 hours to either release the firearm into your possetion or deny you. If they do not contact the FFL in 48 hours the FFL has to release the firearm to you.

Is that in AZ? I drosed a handgun last year before the panic. And the release wasn't delayed until the 10th day. My FFL showed me the time stamp on the email of when they processed it and it was literally the last minute. I had to jump through some pointless hoops about a misdemeanor trespassing charge that was dropped 12 years ago and they released the pistol on the 11th or 12th day.

With my ak47 set to release on Monday I am nervous (hopefully for no reason besides paranoia) it will be smooth. It's been over a week and no bad news from FFL yet but being what happened before I have no confidence in the DOJ anymore.

Fingers crossed!!

kemasa 01-12-2013 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdd (Post 10187991)
I understand. Let me be more specific: what they are doing does not appear to violate the state laws concerning the waiting period. I understand it likely violates various parts of the U.S. Constitution: equal protection, due process, as well as rights under the 2nd amendment.

Challenging the constitutional aspects is fairly involved, as we all know.

Change your view, where does the law allow for the CA DOJ to decide to delay the transfer when they don't have any information that you are prohibited. Just because a person was arrested does not mean that they are prohibited. If they were convicted, there would be a record, but it seems that the DOJ is instead demanding proof that they are innocent. An arrest from years ago would have been a conviction OR dropped/not-guilty, it would not be pending.

edwardm 01-12-2013 4:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdd (Post 10182108)
I hope I am wrong, but I cannot see where a maximum is spelled out in the law.

I guess it would be asking too much for you to explain?

I'm not sure what Brandon is getting at, since he has insights I don't have. That said, I'd wander off the reservation and not immediately look to statute. I would instead look at things that 'substantially burden' a fundamental right.

Then there is the question of performance of ministerial duties and whether those duties are performed appropriately. I haven't really thought that one out deeply, but it might make for an interesting private cause of action.

mrdd 01-12-2013 6:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kemasa (Post 10190215)
Change your view, where does the law allow for the CA DOJ to decide to delay the transfer when they don't have any information that you are prohibited. Just because a person was arrested does not mean that they are prohibited. If they were convicted, there would be a record, but it seems that the DOJ is instead demanding proof that they are innocent. An arrest from years ago would have been a conviction OR dropped/not-guilty, it would not be pending.

I understand what you are saying and I agree completely. I think this situation stinks. My point is that the state law is very vague about how the background check is performed. Actually, that is an understatement: the law does not spell out anything about the process. And this is why they are getting away with what they are doing now.

wildhawker 01-12-2013 7:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdd (Post 10182108)
I guess it would be asking too much for you to explain?

It would be at this time. Two weeks...

-Brandon

One78Shovel 01-12-2013 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabriel80 (Post 10123243)
Me too! Anyone pick up an AR or AK when they're supposed to? Anyone dros anything at the end of 2012 and get it in 10 or 11 days?

I've never been convicted of a crime. I own 5 firearms, the last one I drosed was delayed by 1 (or 2?) days, which was far early last year (pre panic and back up). I believe the delay was a mistake, or "just making sure" as DOJ said.

I've got my 6th firearm in jail right now (my first "black rifle") and for some reason I'm paranoid it will be caught up in delay. I really have nothing that would make me inelligible from clearing but we all know how busy DOJ is.

My pick up date is Jan 14th and I'm pretty excited/nervous, anyone care to share a recent, positive and smooth, normal experience?

I had no issues. Picked it up 7 Jan.

-178S

kemasa 01-13-2013 9:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdd (Post 10182108)
I guess it would be asking too much for you to explain?

BTW, it is best to remember that this forum is PUBLIC. This means that you have to assume that anyone and everyone is reading this and I know that the CA DOJ and BATF have people who read these forums.

This means that you don't want certain aspects made public so that the other side can plan a defense or bogus claim in advance of any action. While you might want to know, it does not serve the best interest of yourself, as well as others, for those who are involved in taking action to publicly post their game plan.


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