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-   -   THE FEATURELESS REVOLUTION HAS BEGUN!! (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=650750)

Thordo 11-30-2012 12:15 PM

THE FEATURELESS REVOLUTION CONTINUES!!
 
My apologies for such a long post but I’m making up for lost time.
THORDO

THORDSEN CUSTOMS HAS BEEN ON HIATUS ON CALGUNS FOR WHILE BUT NOW WE'RE BACK!!

WHERE HAVE WE BEEN??

During our time away a lot has been going on. We moved from the crowded and oppressively expensive San Francisco Bay Area to Diamond Springs in beautiful El Dorado County California. Unlike the Bay Area, we were welcomed in EDC with open arms. We retained two of our Bay Area employees and hired an awesome group of highly qualified EDC locals. We have established many ties with local advocacy groups, businesses, and law enforcement and we are currently preparing to move into a larger facility later this year.

California DOJ did not renew our high capacity magazine permit at the end of 2016 which killed our very successful line of blocked magazines. Their reason was that legally blocking magazines to ten rounds was not what the permit was intended for (even though we honestly explained our propose for wanting the permit FOR THE PREVIOUS EIGHT YEARS!!).

In 2017, we saw the decimation of nearly 1/3 of our product lines including the Ultimate Bullet Button Tool, the UBML ambidextrous magazine lock, and our entire line of ambidextrous magazine locked lowers. The cause was the raft of new anti-gun laws (passed by the legislature) and Prop 63 (passed by the voters).

Our GEN III FRS-15 Featureless Rifle Stock finally hit the market in June of 2017 with an incredibly positive response from customers and reviewers alike. Since its release, we have added a host of furniture upgrades, adaptors, and bundle kits that allow the FRS-15 system to fit seamlessly with a wider variety of firearm platforms (read and see pics below for more on that).

OUR FREEDOM IS UNDER ATTACK!!

The world has certainly changed since my last post on this thread, and in the almost 10 years since our first successful AR product (The Ultimate Bullet Button Tool) was introduced here in California. Many of our freedoms have come under full frontal attack, not just our Second Amendment Rights but the very fabric of the Constitution itself. No longer are anti-freedom forces lurking in the corners and moving in the shadows. They have now infiltrated, infected, and legislated themselves right into our everyday lives.

TC is still as dedicated as ever to fighting these forces, not just here in California but all across the country. Our innovative products continue to help law abiding citizens keep and enjoy their RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS by keeping their “Modern Sporting Rifles” within the new restrictive laws forced upon them. We support and sponsor shooting matches, NRA events, and most importantly we contribute heavily to dozens of the advocacy groups and lawsuits fighting the tyranny that is destroying our state and or country.

Even if our efforts to combat and defeat anti-freedom forces mean the eventual irrelevance of our “compliance products” line of Featureless Rifle Stocks and accessories, TC as a company ( and I personally) will be proud to know that we’ve done our part to save our state and our republic and will move onto other adventures. Who knows, maybe we’ll raise Alpacas??

BUY LOCAL!!

Despite being “BEHIND ENEMY LINES”, Thordsen Customs is proud to be a California based company and will not abandon the fight for our home like so many other businesses have. Like the majority of our dealers and resellers, we are a small family run business that is under constant attack from anti-freedom forces.

In the past few months alone, several mega corporations like Dick’s Sporting Goods, Amazon, and Ebay have "drank the Kool-Aid” and joined with the anti-freedom forces by restricting or banning free commerce in their stores and on their websites. Their policy changes have had a direct and adverse impact, not only on Thordsen Customs but on hundreds of other parts manufacturers and small resellers, many whom make their sole living on “open commerce” websites like Ebay and Amazon.

We strongly encourage freedom loving citizens to purchase our products, and other supplies like ammo and parts, locally through our network of dealers whenever possible. It’s hard enough to own and run a small business here in California and your dollars help greatly to support your local small business people, their families and employees.

We encourage you to not give your hard earned money to freedom hating mega corporations that use your money to contribute to anti-freedom forces. If your local dealer does not carry our products, please drop in and request that they contact us at 650-588-3700 X 102 or 103 or refer them to the become a dealer link on our website.

SOURCED LOCAL!!

TC manufactures, fabricates, and packages the majority of our products in house, but also need to rely on outside manufacturing sources that possess facilities and expertise that we do not have. Whenever outside sourcing is needed, it is my personal mission to seek out and collaborate with companies behind the “West Coast Wall of Gun Control” and more specifically within California whenever possible. We are proud that nearly 70% of our products are manufactured here in California and 100% of our products are MADE IN THE USA!!

TC designs, develops, and tests all of our products in house. We often collaborate with our dealers, manufacturers, and directly with customers nationwide for co-development of parts, accessories, prototype feedback, and testing.

OK, ON TO THE GOOD STUFF!!

The GEN III FRS-15 design has been a great success. As a featureless solution, it offers the most positive control and full function of any platform it’s installed on, and is the only featureless rifle stock on the market that is adaptable to a multitude of platforms. Currently, we build adaptations for: AR-15, AR .308, Kalashnikov variant AK-47, Yugo-Serbian variant AK-47, CZ Scorpion, SIG (MPX, MCX, 556, 556R), Faxon ARAK 21 XRS, and soon the SCAR 16 and 17.

The GEN III FRS-15 Stock is regarded by many (including dozens of independent reviewers) as the best option for featureless conversions. Both our GEN II and GEN III stocks have been featured in many magazine articles, product reviews and blogs over the years. We were honored to be included in the recent CRPA California Featureless Solutions webinar.

We have built a network of dealers, distributors, and manufacturers nationwide and have even established a firm presence in “NON RESTRICTED” states.

WHAT ABOUT ACCESSORIES??

The GEN III FRS-15 is the most upgradable featureless system on the market. Aside from our in house designs, Thordsen Customs has partnered with several industry leaders like Dark Storm Industries, Mission First Tactical, CZ Customs, Atlantic Firearms, and Phase 5, just to name a few. From these collaborations we have developed (or are developing) a host of furniture enhancements and upgrades including (but not limited to) length of pull extensions, sling hard points, adjustable cheek rises, angled cheek rests, muzzle brakes, and blast deflectors, monopod adapters, and many more.


Thordo 11-30-2012 8:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FourLoko (Post 9824773)
I like how you have it on a rifle equipped with all of the maglock/bullet button gear. Sorry, I had to.

Hi FourLoko,
Take a closer look. That's a prototype of our new ambidextrous mag release for featureless, law enforcement, and free states. There's no maglock on that rifle.

Thordo

FourLoko 11-30-2012 9:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thordo (Post 9825894)
Hi FourLoko,
Take a closer look. That's a prototype of our new ambidextrous mag release for featureless, law enforcement, and free states. There's no maglock on that rifle.

Thordo

I see it now, clever. I'll let the Lancer mag slide. I love mine, tested them out today.

Stanksbeamen 12-01-2012 1:32 AM

Email sent, awaiting response.

Thanks!

Thordo 12-01-2012 4:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FourLoko (Post 9826417)
I see it now, clever. I'll let the Lancer mag slide. I love mine, tested them out today.

HOLY CRAP!! You're right. I'll have to edit out the UBBT tonight!! :D:D:D Leaving for Vallejo now.

Thordo

TZL 12-01-2012 3:26 PM

What kind of barrel / rail is that?

Thordo 12-01-2012 6:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TZL (Post 9830425)
What kind of barrel / rail is that?

That's a prototype I've been working on, off and on, for about 3 years. It's nearly perfected. But parts or a vendor to supply bare bones uppers for us to build from are damn near impossible to get in large enough quantities to be economical. We're REALLY hoping to find a supplier at Shot Show this year.

Thordo

LBDamned 12-02-2012 1:00 PM

Murphy's law - I just bought a fixed stock last night for a featureless build... wish I would have seen this prior :o

Thordo, do you know (or will you release) regular production price?

FXR 12-02-2012 2:43 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thordo (Post 9822754)
[...] Placement of the web between the finger and thumb is irrelevant. That only applies to the definition of a "pistol grip". This is a "fixed rifle stock".

Per the flow chart, "Definition of a "Pistol Grip" PC 12276.1 & CCR 11 § 5469 (d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."

Do you contend that calling your product a "fixed rifle stock" removes it from the above classification?

Do you see a legal difference between the two rifles pictured below?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/a...1&d=1354491364

BigJ 12-02-2012 3:55 PM

I'm no lawyer, but I see a huge difference in those two photos and where my webbing would end up. I would doubt even a child size hand could grip it in such a way so that the Web ends up below the lowest portion of the trigger, and yet still fire the gun.

strongpoint 12-02-2012 4:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJ (Post 9836955)
I'm no lawyer, but I see a huge difference in those two photos and where my webbing would end up. I would doubt even a child size hand could grip it in such a way so that the Web ends up below the lowest portion of the trigger, and yet still fire the gun.

the TOP of the trigger is what's important, not the bottom.

JOEKILLA 12-02-2012 5:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strongpoint (Post 9837231)
the TOP of the trigger is what's important, not the bottom.

I am not sure without a picture of a hand gripping it but I think the web will fall slightly below the action breaking the imaginary line.

I do love the cheek riser.

FX-05 Xiuhcoatl 12-02-2012 5:50 PM

tagged

sseric75 12-02-2012 6:27 PM

Tag. I already have a MM grip on one of my AR's. Looks like I'm building another featureless rifle.

Faded 12-02-2012 6:38 PM

Tag... I have a MM grip on my AK and I like the look of this one for my AR

interstellar 12-02-2012 6:48 PM

Tag. Got an 80% when you're ready to sell me one.

atolax25 12-02-2012 11:02 PM

Makes me want to buy/build an AR now. :D The question I would have is, would it be possible to come out with a different kit (kinda like what they do with the Hammerhead) that has the stock attached to the buffer tube? (while still maintaining a grip that keeps the web above that magic line of course)

safewaysecurity 12-02-2012 11:24 PM

Very creative. Must look crazy to people in free states.

marcus_bervus 12-02-2012 11:59 PM

can you disclose the names of the supposedly legal experts you consulted with regard to the legality of this featureless AR15?

spdrcr 12-03-2012 8:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcus_bervus (Post 9839997)
can you disclose the names of the supposedly legal experts you consulted with regard to the legality of this featureless AR15?


As quoted from his orignial post above -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thordo (Post 9822754)

Sorry, no can do. As stated in the OP if I wasn't absolutely sure it was GTG I wouldn't have posted it.

Thordo


spdrcr 12-03-2012 8:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thordo (Post 9822754)
Placement of the web between the finger and thumb is irrelevant. That only applies to the definition of a "pistol grip". This is a "fixed rifle stock".

Thordo

Can you provide the PC which defines a "fixed rifle stock"?

henmar77 12-03-2012 8:14 AM

Wow, that's whats come to. I think i want to cry...

strongpoint 12-03-2012 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACfixer (Post 9841092)
If that's not a pistol grip, then how is it not a thumbhole stock? because of the small opening between the buffer tube and the stock?

(e) "thumbhole stock" means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.

this may be many things, but a thumbhole stock isn't one of them. where do you see a hole?

TZL 12-03-2012 10:08 AM

well you answered your own question, your thumb doesn't go "into or through" anything...therefore not a thumbhole stock

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACfixer (Post 9841092)
a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, "assault weapon" also
means any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.


If that's not a pistol grip, then how is it not a thumbhole stock? because of the small opening between the buffer tube and the stock?

(e) "thumbhole stock" means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while
firing.


henmar77 12-03-2012 10:11 AM

Who cares about any of that. Are any of you going to actually buy that.....thing?

pc_load_letter 12-03-2012 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henmar77 (Post 9841720)
Who cares about any of that. Are any of you going to actually buy that.....thing?

I have prebans....so yes, I might.

DuneShoot 12-03-2012 10:57 AM

I personally like it.

GrizFyrFyter 12-03-2012 11:04 AM

It's isn't a thumb hole stock. The stock is a solid piece that attaches at the back of the rifle and extends to rest against the shoulder. It's only 1 piece and does not have a hole for your thumb. As for the gap between the two pieces, the top piece is not part of the stock, it is a necessary part of the rifle that cannot be removed.

The company has been advised by more than one lawyer that this is legal. If I ever felt the need for a featureless rifle, this would be my choice.

nick 12-03-2012 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FXR (Post 9836552)
Per the flow chart, "Definition of a "Pistol Grip" PC 12276.1 & CCR 11 § 5469 (d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."

Do you contend that calling your product a "fixed rifle stock" removes it from the above classification?

Do you see a legal difference between the two rifles pictured below?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/a...1&d=1354491364

I do see the difference. I'd really love the top picture, if it were featureless :)

DarkSoul 12-03-2012 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACfixer (Post 9842076)
There is a reason the DOJ said "consult legal counsel" rather than giving it the GTG stamp. I certainly wouldn't trust my freedom to the word of four anonymous legal experts, YMMV.

You have very valid questions, no doubt about that, and I as well agree, this certainly walks a fine line, but I plan on eventually picking one up.

When the DOJ says to seek legal council, its because the DOJ does not give "opinions", they state law, and only laws that are on the books. Since this stock is sort of floating in that gray area, the DOJ will not offer an opinion, they will only get involved if some legal entity claims that it is in fact AGAINST the law.

The ATF on the other hand will give out opinions.

Actually, I too would like to know who the lawyers were that gave their opinions as gtg on this. If you cannot give names or firms out, are they at least experienced 2a lawyers?

ACfixer 12-03-2012 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSoul (Post 9842160)
You have very valid questions, no doubt about that, and I as well agree, this certainly walks a fine line, but I plan on eventually picking one up.

When the DOJ says to seek legal council, its because the DOJ does not give "opinions", they state law, and only laws that are on the books. Since this stock is sort of floating in that gray area, the DOJ will not offer an opinion, they will only get involved if some legal entity claims that it is in fact AGAINST the law.

The ATF on the other hand will give out opinions.

Thanks guys. I erased my posts... I felt they cast a negative light on a fellow CalGunner and that certainly isn't my intention. I wish success to this seller, I don't want to do anything to diminish that. On the other hand, if you get arrested for it and tell the court "The seller said four legal experts say it's ok!"... well good luck with that. You'd better have a legal expert of your own because you know "they" will, and I'm pretty sure hearsay from a guy on CalGuns about four anonymous lawyers will be pretty tough to use in your defense.

kcjr1125 12-03-2012 11:46 AM

i like it.

REDPATCHUSMC 12-03-2012 2:57 PM

I, for one, am very excited about this product. I have an Ace Entry stock on my featureless AR now, and it is too short! I have held and tried this stock and comfort is an understatement! I cannot wait for the final product!

This will make the featureless rifle a smart addition to any gun owners collection.

In fact, by adding a Ultimate Bilateral Magazine Lock, you create an effortless mag release from the left side, never lowering your sights off the target!

:hurray::Ivan:

pdq_wizzard 12-03-2012 4:22 PM

damn, now I will need to build another rifle :D

NissanPreRunner 12-03-2012 4:29 PM

Sign me up for one when they become available. I have an 80% lower that is being turned into a featureless rifle.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/04/uzaha2a2.jpg

AfisBoy 12-03-2012 10:06 PM

This sure looks like the U15?

rafael0520 12-03-2012 10:45 PM

I want one now......

kaligaran 12-04-2012 10:50 AM

As this been presented to the CADoJ for confirmation they won't consider it a pistol grip?

If so I'd love to get one (or two or three) and a copy of the letter to keep in my range bag just in case.

LBDamned 12-04-2012 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaligaran (Post 9850002)
As this been presented to the CADoJ for confirmation they won't consider it a pistol grip?

If so I'd love to get one (or two or three) and a copy of the letter to keep in my range bag just in case.

it's addressed in the description of original post.

kaligaran 12-04-2012 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBDamned (Post 9850138)
it's addressed in the description of original post.

I saw that. I guess there's not even a request in to the CADoJ pending then?

That's too bad. If someone gets a letter later on, please post.


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