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-   -   Extended Mosin Magazine legal in CA? (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=317954)

Datamancer 07-02-2010 4:51 PM

Extended Mosin Magazine legal in CA?
 
Hey all, I've had the idea for a while of building my own version of the rare Mosin-Nagant "trench magazines", but wasn't sure if that would actually be legal to put on your rifle in CA. If it's legal, is there a limitation on how many rounds I could put in it? Would I be able to make a 5-round extension that gives me a 10-shot payload in total?


Thanks,
-~Doc~-

mauser98k 07-02-2010 4:59 PM

don't see why not. 10 rounds is the limit in Kalifornia.

Milsurp Collector 07-02-2010 5:03 PM

You can't manufacture a new magazine that holds more than 10 rounds. 10 rounds or less is OK.

Datamancer 07-02-2010 5:38 PM

oh, ok. Someone had said to me, "but then it would be a 'modified firearm' and wouldn't be legal", so I wasn't sure.

I kind of figured that it would be ok as long as it was limited to 10, but you never know with gun laws.

-D

NotEnoughGuns 07-02-2010 5:47 PM

I think it would no longer be C&R. I'm also not sure if bolt actions have to be 922r compliant or not.
If I were you I would research it further to be sure you don't do anything the ATF may frown on.

Quiet 07-02-2010 5:57 PM

Only firearms that must abide by Fed 922r are imported semi-auto rifles and imported semi-auto shotguns. Everything else is exempt.

CSACANNONEER 07-02-2010 5:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotEnoughGuns (Post 4556595)
I think it would no longer be C&R. I'm also not sure if bolt actions have to be 922r compliant or not.
If I were you I would research it further to be sure you don't do anything the ATF may frown on.

It would still be over 50 years old. Therefore, it would still be a C&R as far as Ca FTF transfers go. Since it would still be over 50 years old, I'm pretty sure that it would still be a C&R on a Federal level too.

Milsurp Collector 07-02-2010 6:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER (Post 4556658)
Since it would still be over 50 years old, I'm pretty sure that it would still be a C&R on a Federal level too.

Regardless of the age of the firearm, to retain Federal Curio & Relic status a firearm has to be in substantially original configuration.

Quote:

Q: What modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification?

The definition for curio or relic (“C & R”) firearms found in 27 CFR § 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.

It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts, non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable—for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curi...#modifications

Datamancer 07-02-2010 8:21 PM

Wait, so my Mosin scout (standard ATI monte carlo stock mod) is no longer C&R? Am I supposed to register it now as a different firearm or something? It seems silly that changing the shape of the stock would change its classification like that, but that's what the text above seems to say.

-D

CSACANNONEER 07-02-2010 8:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milsurp Collector (Post 4556896)
Regardless of the age of the firearm, to retain Federal Curio & Relic status a firearm has to be in substantially original configuration.

Maybe to qualify as a C&R under the Federal definition. But, as far as FTF transfers in California goes, it's still over 50 years old so, it GTG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Datamancer (Post 4557354)
Wait, so my Mosin scout (standard ATI monte carlo stock mod) is no longer C&R? Am I supposed to register it now as a different firearm or something? It seems silly that changing the shape of the stock would change its classification like that, but that's what the text above seems to say.

-D

No, there is no registration on long guns.

Mssr. Eleganté 07-02-2010 8:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER (Post 4557363)
Maybe to qualify as a C&R under the Federal definition. But, as far as FTF transfers in California goes, it's still over 50 years old so, it GTG.

To be eligible for "dealerless" transfer in California a long gun must be over 50 years old and qualify as C&R under the Federal definition.

bigstick61 07-03-2010 1:13 AM

I thought one catch-all C&R qualification for the Feds was 50+ years old, regardless of the type of firearm.

ALSystems 07-03-2010 8:25 AM

Something like this 'Assault Nagant':

http://www.ntsystemscal.com/download/other/Nagant.jpg

Just no more than 10 round fixed magazine

tmncali 07-03-2010 8:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALSystems (Post 4559098)
Something like this 'Assault Nagant':

http://www.ntsystemscal.com/download/other/Nagant.jpg

Just no more than 10 round fixed magazine

What if you could make it detachable?

Stryfe76 07-03-2010 10:06 AM

What about buying a spare trigger guard/Magazine and modifying it? Then if you ever sell you can put the original on and have the trench mag as an accessory.

Datamancer 07-03-2010 11:42 AM

That's the plan. I want to buy another follower/floorplate and use it to make a removable magazine, somewhat nicer and better-themed than the one above. The trickiest part will probably be getting the spring mechanism to feed correctly, but I think it's doable with a little tinkering and trial-and-error.

-D

Datamancer 07-03-2010 11:48 AM

Are there any loopholes with a detachable magazine where I could make it more than 10 because it's a bolt-action or is 10 the limit, no matter rate of fire or fixed/detachable?

-D

Stryfe76 07-03-2010 11:53 AM

I've thought about doing the same but using a coil spring like a Mauser instead of the Mosin Nagants magazine spring.

CSACANNONEER 07-03-2010 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Datamancer (Post 4559886)
Are there any loopholes with a detachable magazine where I could make it more than 10 because it's a bolt-action or is 10 the limit, no matter rate of fire or fixed/detachable?

-D

NO! A magazine or any other ammunition feeding device is still an ammunition feeding device. It does not make any difference what type of action it can work in or if it is for rimfire or centerfire firearms.

Datamancer 07-03-2010 4:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stryfe76 (Post 4559906)
I've thought about doing the same but using a coil spring like a Mauser instead of the Mosin Nagants magazine spring.

I had considered stacking 2 of the Z-springs together and possibly doubling-up the flatsprings so make it stronger, but I think that might create too much potential for binding, so I also came around the the double coilspring idea. I'll have to look around ebay or something to find a cheap junker magazine to scrounge the springs from.

-~D~-

classicist 07-03-2010 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER (Post 4560084)
NO! A magazine or any other ammunition feeding device is still an ammunition feeding device. It does not make any difference what type of action it can work in or if it is for rimfire or centerfire firearms.

I thought that .22 cal tube magazines had an exemption. I recall seeing a photochop of a .223 AR15 with a "15 round tube magazine" extending past the barrel... it was a joke obviously. I do understand that it was not the intent of the exemption.

B

Mssr. Eleganté 07-03-2010 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicist (Post 4562366)
I thought that .22 cal tube magazines had an exemption. I recall seeing a photochop of a .223 AR15 with a "15 round tube magazine" extending past the barrel... it was a joke obviously. I do understand that it was not the intent of the exemption.

B

Correct, a .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device is exempt. They probably meant it to be for rimfire only, but the law just says ".22 caliber". Tubular magazines contained in lever action firearms are also exempt, no matter what the caliber.

http://www.type03.net/novelty-pics/artubemag.jpg

classicist 07-03-2010 10:41 PM

That's too funny.

professorhard 07-03-2010 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté (Post 4562395)
Correct, a .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device is exempt. They probably meant it to be for rimfire only, but the law just says ".22 caliber". Tubular magazines contained in lever action firearms are also exempt, no matter what the caliber.

http://www.type03.net/novelty-pics/artubemag.jpg

What if the tube bends around into a circle like a drum?or can it only be straight?

harmoniums 07-03-2010 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by professorhard (Post 4562422)
What if the tube bends around into a circle like a drum?or can it only be straight?


I like how you think!

Ron-Solo 07-03-2010 11:43 PM

Before modifying a Nagant, one must ask yourself, "Why?" The Soviets beat back the Nazis with 5 rounds at a time. Go watch the great training film, "Enemy at the Gates" ;)

IMO, trying to modify the magazine would be the worst 'Bubba' job you can to to a Mosin. Just my $0.02

Aloha,

Ron

gorblimey 07-04-2010 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALSystems (Post 4559098)
Something like this 'Assault Nagant':

http://www.ntsystemscal.com/download/other/Nagant.jpg

Just no more than 10 round fixed magazine


Is that thing for real? Seems like you'd need a bit of a curve for something that long what with the extra space for the rims.

bigstick61 07-04-2010 2:13 AM

Yup, it is real.

CSACANNONEER 07-04-2010 7:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicist (Post 4562366)
I thought that .22 cal tube magazines had an exemption. I recall seeing a photochop of a .223 AR15 with a "15 round tube magazine" extending past the barrel... it was a joke obviously. I do understand that it was not the intent of the exemption.

B

Yes, there are exemptions for tube mags. But, if anyone thinks of making a +10 round tube fed AR, the mag will have to be detachable or, it will be an AW due to a +10 round fixed mag.

Rukus 07-04-2010 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by professorhard (Post 4562422)
What if the tube bends around into a circle like a drum?or can it only be straight?

If you think about it, a tube and a drum are essentially the same thing. The only difference is that tube fed rifles generally have the cartridges lined up single-file, while a drum has them around the perimeter with cartridges lined up side-by-side.

You would have to check to see if there is a legal definition for tube fed.

winnre 07-04-2010 10:55 AM

The Mosin has no evil features. I saw a 20 round magazine for the Saiga 12...

rojocorsa 07-05-2010 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALSystems (Post 4559098)
Something like this 'Assault Nagant':

http://www.ntsystemscal.com/download/other/Nagant.jpg

Just no more than 10 round fixed magazine

Oh god, imagine the possible rimlock that could happen. Oh, the horror!

roughneck427 07-05-2010 9:12 PM

To the OP i have a romanian psl 7.62x54r 10 rd magazine its rusty on the outside and the follower sticks but i think the springs are good in it you can have it if you want to try it out to make it work pm me your shipping info

Datamancer 07-05-2010 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roughneck427 (Post 4570473)
To the OP i have a romanian psl 7.62x54r 10 rd magazine its rusty on the outside and the follower sticks but i think the springs are good in it you can have it if you want to try it out to make it work pm me your shipping info

Oh yeah? That would be awesome. Thanks, I appreciate that! I'll PM you.
-~D~-

Vlad 11 07-05-2010 10:27 PM

I've toyed with this idea in my head. The thing with the PSL mag is its double stacked. It would definitely require some nifty engineering. It would require it to be modified to a pistol mag style feedlip system to center to top cartridge. I was thinking some kind of adapter that goes onto the bottom of the existing mag. The whole deal would hold 15 but only feed 10, lol . Maybe some issues there.

Datamancer 07-05-2010 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron-Solo (Post 4562639)
Before modifying a Nagant, one must ask yourself, "Why?" The Soviets beat back the Nazis with 5 rounds at a time. Go watch the great training film, "Enemy at the Gates" ;)

IMO, trying to modify the magazine would be the worst 'Bubba' job you can to to a Mosin. Just my $0.02

Aloha,

Ron

You're gonna absolutely hate my scout mosin then.

Pics soon

:)

-D

7.62x54R 07-06-2010 12:21 AM

Its been talked about a lot on other forums. No one has ever successfully made one. Is it possible? Yes. Worth while? No. It would be interesting to make one work. I bet it wouldn't work 100% and be cumbersome more than anything.

try melding a PSL mag to a Mosin some how.

kel-tec-innovations 07-06-2010 1:27 AM

Interesting idea

Datamancer 07-06-2010 2:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7.62x54R (Post 4571134)
Its been talked about a lot on other forums. No one has ever successfully made one. Is it possible? Yes. Worth while? No. It would be interesting to make one work. I bet it wouldn't work 100% and be cumbersome more than anything.

try melding a PSL mag to a Mosin some how.

I fully realize that this is a mostly frivolous endeavor, but I think it'll be a fun project. I've been wanting to try some gun mods for a while but didn't have the cash to do so, but the Mosin makes a nice donor gun for projects like this because it's so cheap. I kinda just want to see IF I can do it, more than anything. I'm an artist of sorts and I work in just about every medium so these are my first steps toward firearms modification. My Mosin is already pretty heavily modified, but I think this will be the icing on the cake.

-~D~-

knucklehead0202 07-06-2010 7:43 PM

great, now they'll ban mosins next because some wacko with a 20rd mag in m44 will go nuts and shoot a bunch of people, really slowly. then they'll classify mosins as assault rifles, big5 will go out of business, and we'll all have to register our rifles. only joking of course, could you imagine the North Hollywood scene with some poor bastard with a mosin and a hi-cap mag? entertaining stuff. good luck with your project. if it turns you on, go for it. remember, it's your hobby and not somebody else's, so screw 'em if they don't like what you're doing.


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