Calguns.net

Calguns.net (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/index.php)
-   Concealed Carry Discussion (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=179)
-   -   ccw suspended then revoked appeals? (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1448820)

hoghammer 05-17-2018 8:52 AM

ccw suspended then revoked appeals?
 
I have a client who has held a ccw in Orange County for several years. Recently, he was told his permit was suspended. Two weeks later, the ccw was revoked. Obviously there are more facts but not necessary for the question:
Who has experience fighting ccw revocations in OC?

RickD427 05-17-2018 9:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoghammer (Post 21651292)
I have a client who has held a ccw in Orange County for several years. Recently, he was told his permit was suspended. Two weeks later, the ccw was revoked. Obviously there are more facts but not necessary for the question:
Who has experience fighting ccw revocations in OC?

No experience with CCW revocations, but I do have some general background in responding to licensure appeals.

My first advice is always to closely look at rules governing the process. Make every effort to forget about any notion of "fair play." It's not part of the process and any attempt to make it part of the process is only going to make it more difficult and expensive.

The second is to gather as much information as is possible concerning the information used by the agency to support their decision.

The best way to win an appeal is to specifically show that the agency violated a law, rule, or regulation in reaching their decision. You need to be very specific in identifying the law, rule, or regulation and in describing how the revocation violated it. That's going to be really hard to do in the case of a CCW permit since the issuing authority has broad discretion on both the "good character" and "good cause" requirements.

The other avenue is to show that the agency relied on bad information in making their decision. Suppose, as an example, that it was revoked because the holder suffered a felony conviction in Nevada. You show that the permit holder is a different person than the one having the conviction.

SkyHawk 05-17-2018 10:58 AM

When the smoke clears, if you could give us a generic overview of what lead to this it would be very helpful. It may help keep someone else from losing theirs.

I hope it works out for your client.

ACfixer 05-17-2018 11:08 AM

Why not give us an overview now? It's not like we know the person.

CSACANNONEER 05-17-2018 11:09 AM

Tagged for details

hoghammer 05-17-2018 8:49 PM

Overview--- Client leaves his business and as he is about to drive out of the parking area Client hears a female screaming for help. Client observes a homeless male beating the female. Client stops his vehicle and tries to get the homeless male to stop beating the female. Homeless male grabs some sort of compressed gas cylinder type device and starts threatening Client. Client finds himself unable to retreat safely and believes that the cylinder may contain acid or some other harmful substance. Client pulls pistol in defense of self. Homeless male drops to ground and starts claiming that he knows the "cop" (who he names) and that the "cop" will take Client down. Client calls 911. Independent witness calls 911. Cops arrive. Female and homeless male (who turn out to be married) claim that Client threatened them, that homeless male never touched female, that Client never identified himself and that they never threatened Client. Cops discount Client's statements and the statements of independent witness. Cops cite homeless male for drug possession but refuse to cite or arrest him for 245 against Client. Police Report is not even close to accurate, well outside of POST module, full of baseless opinion, etc. Client retrieves video from his vehicle and provides it to cops. Cops claim it is too hard to see and lacks time stamp. DA sees video and charges homeless male with the drug possession and battery of cohabitant (domestic). Homeless male is 2 striker and gang related with long conviction history. Client apparently did not file "police contact" report in a timely manner. Cops issue suspension then revoke ccw.

grantar2 05-17-2018 9:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoghammer (Post 21651292)
I have a client who has held a ccw in Orange County for several years. Recently, he was told his permit was suspended. Two weeks later, the ccw was revoked. Obviously there are more facts but not necessary for the question:
Who has experience fighting ccw revocations in OC?

First note the fight is not likely to be cheap. However Steve Lieberman and Cosmo Taormina at LIEBERMAN, TAORMINA, LLP have experience and success in this area.(949) 431-6612

If you receive info from CRPA you will find they teach the CCW seminars, and have and are representing NRA on several current cases in So. Cal. They are located in Lake Forest.

http://www.ltccwlaw.com/profile.html

kriller134 05-17-2018 10:01 PM

ccw suspended then revoked appeals?
 
The part of filing in a timely manner is most likely what got it revoked. There are specific guidelines to make a report.

L84CABO 05-17-2018 11:06 PM

MAN!...Isn't that your worst nightmare. :facepalm:

You intervene on what is clearly a violent situation in an attempt to help the woman being beaten and then it gets turned around on you because they're married. It's stories like this that make me never want to intervene on anything unless somebody is actually being shot at.

igs 05-18-2018 8:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoghammer (Post 21654127)
Client apparently did not file "police contact" report in a timely manner.

You could have skipped the whole novel and just said this. He violated the terms of his license. End of story.

kriller134 05-18-2018 8:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L84CABO (Post 21654440)
MAN!...Isn't that your worst nightmare. :facepalm:

You intervene on what is clearly a violent situation in an attempt to help the woman being beaten and then it gets turned around on you because they're married. It's stories like this that make me never want to intervene on anything unless somebody is actually being shot at.



That’s why I have strict personal rules on when I would engage someone. My ccw is for me and my family. I’ll be a good witness in other situations unless it’s children being harmed.

Squatch 05-18-2018 8:36 AM

I think the guy is screwed. I seem to remember mine (in OC) says something like "can be revoked at anytime for any reason".

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

SoCalPI 05-18-2018 8:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by igs (Post 21655272)
You could have skipped the whole novel and just said this. He violated the terms of his license. End of story.

Yup. He better be looking for a good civil lawyer to defend him against the victims that are no doubt now scarred for life. As to his permit, he violated the terms by not advising the IA.

robert101 05-18-2018 1:05 PM

I changed my thinking a few years ago on CCW intervention. If a family or friend matter, and I can confirm the events, then it is likely that I would assist. Otherwise, my fingers are dialing 911 and awaiting police intervention. There is too much risk to me from a legal perspective. There is no immunity to the average "Joe".

BONECUTTER 05-18-2018 1:14 PM

I was sued once for coming to a woman aid who was being choked for over 6mil one time.

When I took CCW training the instructor gave multiple scenarios of real incidents where pulling you gun to protect anyone other than you or your loved ones can bite you in the ***.

Like off duty cops shooting under cover cops.....husband and wife having a rape fantasy play out in parks...best to just call 911.

broadside 05-18-2018 1:42 PM

So how long did the guy wait to report to the IA?

CAL.BAR 05-18-2018 1:46 PM

While I am sad to hear of the situation, the reality is that there are virtually NO laws or case law regarding the issuance or revocation of CCW's. They are STRICTLY under the prevue (and whim) of the sheriff and their decision is not practically subject to ANY review or appeal.

Yodaman 05-18-2018 3:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadside (Post 21656662)
So how long did the guy wait to report to the IA?



This [emoji1369] and why did he wait to report to IA?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

glock21sf 05-18-2018 5:26 PM

Very unfortunate... He should have reported it within the 5 days required by OCSD rules. I defended a third party from a violent attack and emailed a letter to the OCSD CCW Unit the following morning. I had no problems and was told to "continue carrying" while they conducted their investigation. I received a "no action will be taken regarding your permit" letter a few weeks later.

I would also recommed Steven Lieberman and his partner as mentioned above by granter2. Also, USCCA self defense insurance could help with the legal fees if he was a member.

r739 05-18-2018 5:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kriller134 (Post 21655367)
That’s why I have strict personal rules on when I would engage someone. My ccw is for me and my family. I’ll be a good witness in other situations unless it’s children being harmed.

I totally agree on that personal Rule my Family and I.....

Paladin 05-18-2018 6:00 PM

If folks didn't learn from Zimmerman that a CCW isn't the answer to every problem, this should teach them.

EDC pepper spray too. :oji:

ACfixer 05-18-2018 7:39 PM

OP, I have been to three different CCW training classes. CA, AZ, and UT. In every single one of them we talked about this stuff and the very type of scenario you describe. Before I add another 2 cents....

Quote:

Originally Posted by kriller134 (Post 21655367)
That’s why I have strict personal rules on when I would engage someone. My ccw is for me and my family. I’ll be a good witness in other situations unless it’s children being harmed.

I could not have said it any better than that. Some woman getting beat, well that REALLY sucks but you know what... if he didn't have a gun then there's nothing he could have done anyway. I hate to say this because it seems heartless and it kind of is, but it just sucks to be her. Call 911 and stay away. Now in the end, he didn't save that woman from anything and she's probably experiencing it again this very night, but now he's lost his license to carry and defend those that REALLY matter in his life. Booooo.

Didn't report a CCW incident and LEO contact in a timely matter? Why not? He's pretty well screwed, call a lawyer and ask for a hearing I guess.

bigstick61 05-18-2018 7:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin (Post 21657664)
If folks didn't learn from Zimmerman that a CCW isn't the answer to every problem, this should teach them.

EDC pepper spray too. :oji:

Ummm, CCW is a solution to getting your head bashed in. Completely justified and may well have prevented permanent harm or worse. No reason to allow yourself to become the next Reginald Denny.

Paladin 05-18-2018 8:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigstick61 (Post 21658178)
Ummm, CCW is a solution to getting your head bashed in. Completely justified and may well have prevented permanent harm or worse. No reason to allow yourself to become the next Reginald Denny.

If Zimmerman had known H2H or had OC he could have stopped things before he was getting his head bashed in.

The lesson from Z is that even a legally defensible/justified/"good" shoot can still DESTROY your life. Best to have other "tools" in your toolkit to avoid having to go through all of what he did -- and Z didn't even have to face a civil lawsuit!

In CA, we do NOT have the NRA's Model Castle Doctrine law which bars civil lawsuits by the BG or his survivors when the CCWer isn't criminally convicted.

caliberetta 05-18-2018 8:49 PM

Laughable as it may be, it's not completely shocking he got his license suspended.

He seems to have a good basis to file an appeal to reinstate his permit.

I would be very interested to know the outcome of that.

Thanks for sharing some of the facts -- good luck.

SoCalPI 05-18-2018 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caliberetta (Post 21658386)
Laughable as it may be, it's not completely shocking he got his license suspended.

He seems to have a good basis to file an appeal to reinstate his permit.

I would be very interested to know the outcome of that.

Thanks for sharing some of the facts -- good luck.

What is the good basis? He didn’t notify his IA of the police contact (or presumably the use of his weapon).

CBR_rider 05-18-2018 11:51 PM

So someone doesn't follow the rules for having a CCW permit, gets it revoked, and now wants to complain about it... Sounds like IA found out about the incident from the LEA that took the brandishing report/whatever it turned into; I coulda called that permit revocation from here. Good luck; hopefully they will be understanding.

ACfixer 05-19-2018 5:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin (Post 21658343)
If Zimmerman had known H2H or had OC he could have stopped things before he was getting his head bashed in.

While this may be true, Zimmerman shouldn't have to know H2H or carry OC to keep his head from getting bashed in. You cannot reasonably be expected to have mano y mano fighting skills to a level able to defend against any attacker, my GF certainly doesn't... and some people fight right through pepper spray.

Mayor McRifle 05-19-2018 5:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoghammer (Post 21654127)
Client apparently did not file "police contact" report in a timely manner. Cops issue suspension then revoke ccw.

And there it is. All the other stuff is irrelevant.

tuna quesadilla 05-19-2018 8:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoghammer (Post 21654127)
Overview--- Client leaves his business and as he is about to drive out of the parking area Client hears a female screaming for help. Client observes a homeless male beating the female. Client stops his vehicle and tries to get the homeless male to stop beating the female. Homeless male grabs some sort of compressed gas cylinder type device and starts threatening Client. Client finds himself unable to retreat safely and believes that the cylinder may contain acid or some other harmful substance. Client pulls pistol in defense of self. Homeless male drops to ground and starts claiming that he knows the "cop" (who he names) and that the "cop" will take Client down. Client calls 911. Independent witness calls 911. Cops arrive. Female and homeless male (who turn out to be married) claim that Client threatened them, that homeless male never touched female, that Client never identified himself and that they never threatened Client. Cops discount Client's statements and the statements of independent witness. Cops cite homeless male for drug possession but refuse to cite or arrest him for 245 against Client. Police Report is not even close to accurate, well outside of POST module, full of baseless opinion, etc. Client retrieves video from his vehicle and provides it to cops. Cops claim it is too hard to see and lacks time stamp. DA sees video and charges homeless male with the drug possession and battery of cohabitant (domestic). Homeless male is 2 striker and gang related with long conviction history. Client apparently did not file "police contact" report in a timely manner. Cops issue suspension then revoke ccw.

CCW doesn't make you a cop. Client should have dialed 911 from the safety of his car and, if confronted by the homeless man, driven away rapidly.

ACfixer 05-19-2018 8:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle (Post 21658945)
And there it is. All the other stuff is irrelevant.

Fact.

Jimvh2 05-19-2018 9:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla (Post 21659545)
CCW doesn't make you a cop. Client should have dialed 911 from the safety of his car and, if confronted by the homeless man, driven away rapidly.

This times 1000!

Both CCW classes I've taken have had heavy emphasis on being a good witness. You are not LEO and if you step into something to "help" you do so at your own peril. The least is you'll likely lose your permit, but you may have to explain your actions to a jury (civil and or criminal)

BubbaCluck 05-20-2018 7:20 AM

In class we were tasked with carefully thinking about and then creating a list of those people we would use our LTC for. The lists were generally very short, consisting of family.

glock21sf 05-20-2018 9:39 AM

He lost his permit for not reporting the incident to the OCSD. I'm not saying he did right or wrong in this situation because I wasn't there during the incident.

To those with the, "I'm only helping my family" mentality... If you witness a traumatic event like a stranger being murdered, please remember that you have to live with your choice of not assisting. Having the means to stop a murder or great bodily injury and purposely not giving assistance is something that would cause me not to sleep at night. I would do my best to help, armed or not.

nine mil thrill 05-20-2018 10:55 AM

"To those with the, "I'm only helping my family" mentality... If you witness a traumatic event like a stranger being murdered, please remember that you have to live with your choice of not assisting. Having the means to stop a murder or great bodily injury and purposely not giving assistance is something that would cause me not to sleep at night. I would do my best to help, armed or not."
glock21sf.........absolutely dead on !

Mayor McRifle 05-20-2018 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glock21sf (Post 21663508)
To those with the, "I'm only helping my family" mentality... If you witness a traumatic event like a stranger being murdered, please remember that you have to live with your choice of not assisting. Having the means to stop a murder or great bodily injury and purposely not giving assistance is something that would cause me not to sleep at night. I would do my best to help, armed or not.

Thank you for restoring my faith in Calguns. I was starting to think I was the only one.

glock21sf 05-20-2018 2:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle (Post 21663979)
Thank you for restoring my faith in Calguns. I was starting to think I was the only one.

You're welcome.

In my experience with violent situations, training takes over and a response to violence is either automatic or non-existent. You're either going to fight back, run, or freeze when it counts, regardless of your relationship to a victim. Train regularly and have the "I'm gonna win this fight" mentally for the best chance at prevailing during a violent encounter.

kriller134 05-20-2018 4:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glock21sf (Post 21663508)
He lost his permit for not reporting the incident to the OCSD. I'm not saying he did right or wrong in this situation because I wasn't there during the incident.

To those with the, "I'm only helping my family" mentality... If you witness a traumatic event like a stranger being murdered, please remember that you have to live with your choice of not assisting. Having the means to stop a murder or great bodily injury and purposely not giving assistance is something that would cause me not to sleep at night. I would do my best to help, armed or not.



And I’m perfectly fine with my choices. It’s not my responsibility to play hero. My family depends on me and I’m not going to jeopardize my safety, freedom, or financial stability for someone I don’t know.

Bobby Ricigliano 05-20-2018 4:41 PM

If anyone thinks the revocation is harsh given the circumstances, let me offer this: If an off duty sworn LEO was in the same situation with the same variables, he / she would be obligated to report the incident to their chain of command immediately.

Staying and assisting the responding LE after the incident would not exempt LEO from also immediately reporting it to their own chain of command. Failing to do so would result in certain discipline.

Citadelgrad87 05-20-2018 4:51 PM

I think everyone who has a ccw needs to separate the two issues.

First, and foremost, is it a situation where you are legally permitted to act with deadly force. For those inclined, this is where the decision to help others comes in.

Second, though, and in play here, is the absolute mandate that IF you take any action involving your ccw, you NEED to report it immediately. I would personally call an attorney first, but the incident needs to be reported, and the fact that you feel justified in your actions does not change this requirement.

Put a lawyers number in your phone and call as soon as you are safe. But always keep in mind the incident needs to be reported.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:05 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.