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-   -   What professional snipers use... you'd be surprised! (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=652700)

rksimple 12-09-2012 7:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pthfndr (Post 9885363)
LOL James!

And how many times have YOU won the TBRC? Always a bridesmaid, never a bride :)

BAM! Lmfao!

DirtRacer151 12-09-2012 7:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pthfndr (Post 9885363)
LOL James!

And how many times have YOU won the TBRC? Always a bridesmaid, never a bride :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rksimple (Post 9885461)
BAM! Lmfao!

:D

Everyone gets lucky every now and then. I've got him beat 2 out of 3 times i've shot TBRC though. :reddevil:


No, honestly Ryans a bad mamma jamma. I value his advice on technique far more then his advice on equipment. 1 Premier and 2 Schmidt & Benders later and i finally got lucky with his last flavor of the week (Nightforce).

jtv3062 12-09-2012 8:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kendog4570 (Post 9855749)
What pros?
These guys are competitors and gamers (mighty good ones).

I would think the “Pros” use whatever their organization tells them to.

I'm with kendog. I know those guys at the hide don't throw around the word sniper freely.

gunprofit 12-09-2012 11:51 PM

Joker, thanks for posting. Its interesting to see what is used. I really don't care what they are called. These are people who are pushing the envelope on long range accuracy. To me, the equipment they use is interesting.

There was a time when I created and ran matches, mostly handgun. I tried to get professional people to participate. Usually they got their butts beat and then the whine started about gamers vs. Professionals. The big difference was that one practiced, practiced, practiced. The other whined.

Anyway, I am always interested in equipment that is developed to push the limits.

WordVirus 12-10-2012 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kendog4570 (Post 9856109)
I don't think so. These guys do a whole bunch of various scenarios including paper, gongs, unknown distance and angles, time/stress constraints, canted rifle shooting, etc. IPSC plus, with rifles, if you will. It aint easy. BUT, it is a game. Try shooting a 8" x 12" target at 200 yards with your rifle turned 90 degrees to vertical alignment.
My only point is they are not "professionals".

I'm a newb as far as shooting goes, but have been told I have innate ability, and I can shoot(and ring) 200 yrds with my iron sights at a 12" gong. wonder where there is a range that has 90 degree "vertical" alignment at 200 yrds .... shooting into a canyon? I wouldn't call 200 yrds "long range" even as a rookie... esp if they are using optics which probably cost as much as my M&P15

WordVirus 12-10-2012 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WordVirus (Post 9887501)
I'm a newb as far as shooting goes, but have been told I have innate ability, and I can shoot(and ring) 200 yrds with my iron sights at a 12" gong. wonder where there is a range that has 90 degree "vertical" alignment at 200 yrds .... shooting into a canyon? I wouldn't call 200 yrds "long range" even as a rookie... esp if they are using optics which probably cost as much as my M&P15

wow... Jesus, nevermind. As I read more in this post, it seems like there are some very differing views on this subject. Just saying tho, 200 yrds ain't *****...

postal 12-10-2012 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WordVirus (Post 9887501)
I'm a newb as far as shooting goes, but have been told I have innate ability, and I can shoot(and ring) 200 yrds with my iron sights at a 12" gong. wonder where there is a range that has 90 degree "vertical" alignment at 200 yrds .... shooting into a canyon? I wouldn't call 200 yrds "long range" even as a rookie... esp if they are using optics which probably cost as much as my M&P15

You mis understood.... He meant turn the rifle sideways 'gansta style'. It really throws you off with a scope until you learn how to deal with it. -----edit. This is to simulate shooting underneath a car, where you dont have clearance to hold the rifle normally. This was actually done by LEO during the North Hollywood bank robbery shoot out, but they were using AR15/m16's...--- end edit---

There are places that have steep angle shooting, and the snipers hide cup has a tower- they leaned out over the edge shooting at a very small target straight down about ?6 stories? below them. Scoped rifle very close shots are difficult as well until you know your scope, and how to hit them. 25 yards will really throw someone off with a 100 yd zero until you know how to do it. Then try pointing your rifle straight down and hitting one on the ground below you for something new...

As a beginner, 12" gong at 200 with irons is decent. I've seen high power competitors with quality iron peep sights knock out the peg from the target marker at 600 yards.... Dude hit the exact same hole like 3 times in 30 shots at 600 yds with irons....:eek: I started running out of pegs since he shot them up and I couldnt find them..

phish 12-10-2012 12:49 PM

^ must've gotten your attention as well, exploding spindles have a different sound to them

postal 12-10-2012 4:16 PM

They were plastic.... First time, I musta just stood there drop jawed when the marker fell to my feet with no peg...

2nd and 3rd time, just shaking my head laughing.... hardly believing it... Except I had to hurry trying to find another peg so he could see the marker through the spotting scope..

Vu 308 12-10-2012 9:39 PM

LOL...a friend of mine linked me to this thread.

That last thing we needed for this sport was a thread that labeled the men and women that shoot it as "snipers"....thanks OP..great work there bud.

As pointed out in previous posts, these stats were pulled from the Precision Rifle Series, not from snipers in the field.

6.5s and 6mm hotrods dominate this game, period. If you think your 308win rolling 175s @ 2600 will compete against a 260rem or 243, you're high.

Here is the SureFire video from our 2012 NorCal TBRC SureFire Invitational. Mike Cecil with CSTactical will have his media ready to go soon as well. I will post here once it is ready.

We're not HP shooters by any means...total different game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2VXdTLlmfU

kendog4570 12-10-2012 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WordVirus (Post 9887501)
I'm a newb as far as shooting goes, but have been told I have innate ability, and I can shoot(and ring) 200 yrds with my iron sights at a 12" gong. wonder where there is a range that has 90 degree "vertical" alignment at 200 yrds .... shooting into a canyon? I wouldn't call 200 yrds "long range" even as a rookie... esp if they are using optics which probably cost as much as my M&P15

200 is not long range. It is considered short range in NRA highpower. The sideways thing is supposed to simulate shooting from a barricade or from something like under a vehicle where the shooter doesnt have the space or time to get the rifle in the normal firing position. I dont shoot tac stuff, it doesnt really interest me as much as other types of competition, but the way this competition is set up it is quite tough.

Imagine an 8" by 12" gong at 200 yards, and take your rifle with a good known 200 yard zero and lay it over 90 degrees, and tell me where you would have to hold to get a center hit. 12 " is 6 MOA at 200, and I bet the first time you won't be on the target at all.

Vu 308 12-13-2012 2:44 PM

While some of these guys are real world dudes, most are competitive shooters. Here are were some of these stats came from.

Special thanks to Mike Cecil with CS Tactical for producing this video of our event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHFfR_k_kfs

DirtRacer151 12-13-2012 2:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vu 308 (Post 9913164)
While some of these guys are real world dudes, most are competitive shooters. Here are were some of these stats came from.

Special thanks to Mike Cecil with CS Tactical for producing this video of our event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHFfR_k_kfs

Another bad *** video!

Thanks again for the awesome match!!

I need to bribe Mikey for some extra face time on the next video :D

roostersgt 12-17-2012 2:44 AM

I just found this site and found this to be an interesting thread. I'm not trying to stir the pot, or jump into a fight with anyone, but hope I can add a bit to the conversation.

A lot can be said of the long range rounds being used today and discussed in this thread. What can not be said is that they are "new" calibers. The 6mm and 6.5 Creedmore and its variants have been around nearly 40 years. They are a very fast and flat shooting round, especially with the advancements made in propellants. I believe a major reason most of this calibers shooters state they use the 6mm rounds is due to less recoil. Isn't the brass based on the .243 case? I recently met a highly ranked shooter, named Keith Gratias, who stated it's his favorite round for that very reason.

I recently retired from a large sheriff's department and have had the opportunity to work with our "snipers" and many other agencies "snipers", including a few military snipers (SEAL, Ranger) who assist with providing training. Every single "paid" LE sniper and agency I'm aware of uses the .308, along with our military snipers (+.50cal). Our latest platform is an AR-10 based one and is expected in a couple of weeks. We've discontinued the model700 BOLT platform, in that it was deemed inferior. None of the paid "snipers" I know use anything except the .308 cal. Most police agencies can use whatever caliber they want, as money isn't really an issue for limited quantities of specialized equipment.

Most, and I do mean most, LE agencies snipers use Nightforce scopes. This is primarily due to their extreme durability and light gathering. Pricey yes, but when lives are on the line frugality is stupidity. Hornady TAP 165gr ammunition is the apparent standard.

A lot of "real world" ballistics information is available for .308. Penetration, separation, weight retention etc... how it performs through glass, metal, sheetrock, wooden doors, bodies etc... Perhaps someday, as more relevant information is obtained on the 6mm rounds for "sniper" suitability, it may well become the .308's replacement. Paper targets, metal plates and such are for competition. Just my two cents.

bridgeport 12-17-2012 5:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roostersgt (Post 9939272)
I just found this site and found this to be an interesting thread. I'm not trying to stir the pot, or jump into a fight with anyone, but hope I can add a bit to the conversation.

A lot can be said of the long range rounds being used today and discussed in this thread. What can not be said is that they are "new" calibers. The 6mm and 6.5 Creedmore and its variants have been around nearly 40 years. They are a very fast and flat shooting round, especially with the advancements made in propellants. I believe a major reason most of this calibers shooters state they use the 6mm rounds is due to less recoil. Isn't the brass based on the .243 case? I recently met a highly ranked shooter, named Keith Gratias, who stated it's his favorite round for that very reason.

I recently retired from a large sheriff's department and have had the opportunity to work with our "snipers" and many other agencies "snipers", including a few military snipers (SEAL, Ranger) who assist with providing training. Every single "paid" LE sniper and agency I'm aware of uses the .308, along with our military snipers (+.50cal). Our latest platform is an AR-10 based one and is expected in a couple of weeks. We've discontinued the model700 BOLT platform, in that it was deemed inferior. None of the paid "snipers" I know use anything except the .308 cal. Most police agencies can use whatever caliber they want, as money isn't really an issue for limited quantities of specialized equipment.

Most, and I do mean most, LE agencies snipers use Nightforce scopes. This is primarily due to their extreme durability and light gathering. Pricey yes, but when lives are on the line frugality is stupidity. Hornady TAP 165gr ammunition is the apparent standard.

A lot of "real world" ballistics information is available for .308. Penetration, separation, weight retention etc... how it performs through glass, metal, sheetrock, wooden doors, bodies etc... Perhaps someday, as more relevant information is obtained on the 6mm rounds for "sniper" suitability, it may well become the .308's replacement. Paper targets, metal plates and such are for competition. Just my two cents.

6MM has been around "for a while", no news here. Anybody into this stuff knows that.
Your information is a bit mixed up though on the .243, which is based on the .3o8 case, as is .260. Felt recoil is of little consideration though in a rifle with a brake, or suppressor.
Although you may like the "S" word, it really does not apply to tactical competition, nor for that matter to Law enforcement where the sharpshooter/ designated marksman works. No matter what a persons line of work or MOS, they are simply a competitor when playing in competition.
The Fact that .308 is a common LE/ military cartridge (notice I did not say Caliber) is, or should be, common knowledge.
Most shooters will use the best glass they can afford, NF, USO, S&B, unless through experience or sponsorship, they have determined there is a product the individual considers better suited to them.
Most Competition players shoot their own Handloads, a considerable time of which can be spent tweaking the components into harmony with their rifle.
There is plenty of real world ballistic information available for 6mm and 6.5, after all, these calibers have been around for a long time, as was noted.
Paper targets, and metal plates, are used by just about everybody, including LE, military, and competitors for training, and always have been. I think most shooters are aware of that.

roostersgt 12-17-2012 12:46 PM

I guess I just met the online resident "know-it-all / bully". Thanks. Now my opinion is once again confirmed about posting on online forums. You going to check my spelling too? I'm not going to bore the others with my credentials here, but suffice it to say, I know what I'm talking about in my post, except for the part where I asked about the 6mm being made from .243 cases, my bad. I'm leaving. You've proven what I've believed for a long time.

Pthfndr 12-17-2012 7:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roostersgt (Post 9941831)
I guess I just met the online resident "know-it-all / bully". Thanks. Now my opinion is once again confirmed about posting on online forums. You going to check my spelling too? I'm not going to bore the others with my credentials here, but suffice it to say, I know what I'm talking about in my post, except for the part where I asked about the 6mm being made from .243 cases, my bad. I'm leaving. You've proven what I've believed for a long time.

Well, it's too bad you decided to leave. If you have professional experience and valid opinion to offer you are welcome to (and should) give it.

One of the problems with the internet is there are a great many people who say they have "the credentials" to back up what they say, when in fact they do not, and are just espousing what they've read on the internet. Not saying that is the case with you, just that it happens.

While no one really expects you to reveal your real name, it would certainly go a long way towards your credibility if you did say what agency you served with, when, and in what capacity.......There are a lot of LE/MIL people on this forum, and some of them might actually know you, and you them, and can vouch for the knowledge expressed.

While what you've stated is not necessarily untrue, it's not wholly accurate either. That may just be a consequence of your participation within a single agency. I know for a fact from actually seeing it that one of northern CA's larger SO swat sniper team has equipment on par with what someone on a severely restricted budget would buy for their first "sniper" rifle. None of it high end at all.


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