Calguns.net

Calguns.net (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/index.php)
-   California handguns (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=66)
-   -   Squeeeeze until the bang surprises you? Legit advice? (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1448341)

Wordupmybrotha 05-15-2018 12:28 PM

Squeeeeze until the bang surprises you? Legit advice?
 
I was at the range last week when I overheard a guy instruct the newbie he brought, to slowly squeeze the trigger until the bang surprised her. Presumably, the intent behind that advice is to avoid jerking the trigger.

But that advice seems to me a horrible advice. Why would I want to be surprised at every shot? Would develop a bad flinch, no? When I shoot, I squeeze the trigger, but I know exactly when the gun will go off.

Poll is up. What do you think?

MosinVirus 05-15-2018 12:32 PM

no poll, but the trick I believe is to not "care" to know when the trigger breaks.
Hence letting it be a surprise, one that doesn't affect anything.

zinfull 05-15-2018 12:36 PM

To late to flinch after the bang. It worked for me.

Wordupmybrotha 05-15-2018 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MosinVirus (Post 21644020)
no poll, but the trick I believe is to not "care" to know when the trigger breaks.
Hence letting it be a surprise, one that doesn't affect anything.

I care to know when it goes bang. Poll is up

Wordupmybrotha 05-15-2018 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zinfull (Post 21644032)
To late to flinch after the bang. It worked for me.

A flinch would occur just before the bang in anticipation of it. If that doesn't happen to you, then you don't have a flinch.

MosinVirus 05-15-2018 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha (Post 21644046)
I care to know when it goes bang. Poll is up

Not caring would mean that you are making a steady pull through without moving the gun regardless of where the trigger breaks. You don't pause before the trigger break, you don't "final adjust"... It simply doesn't matter.

ruchik 05-15-2018 12:47 PM

I've heard that advice repeated a lot. You're right, it's to avoid jerking the trigger. I always thought it was terrible advice, too. You should know your weapon well enough to know exactly when it's going to go off. One should never be "surprised" when their gun goes bang.

I've always put it down to old school advice. Shot should surprise you, grip the gun like a bird or a bar of soap, bring the gun down on your target (fishing the gun), etc. That advice works in the context of the style of shooting in the time of our grandfathers, where emphasis seemed to be more on target-style shooting. Those techniques line up just right with how shooters shot 1911's around the time of World War 2, for example.

These days though, I don't buy it. Having been in a shooting, I observed later on that I developed tunnel vision, my eyes were bugging out of my head, and any thoughts of "Hold the gun like a bird" nonsense went flying out the window. I held the gun like it was a talisman warding off my boss' (girlfriend's) wrath when she found out I bought a new gun/part/accessory, and only thought about where was the bad guy, were my buddies OK, and holy **** I'm in it now.

Nope. Grab that gun like it's a fine piece of ***, and practice point shooting too, because you're going to focus on the bad guy like it's a fine piece of *** as well.

theLBC 05-15-2018 12:47 PM

i have had heard similar advice to get people to avoid flinching or anticipating the shot.

MosinVirus 05-15-2018 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha (Post 21644060)
A flinch would occur just before the bang in anticipation of it. If that doesn't happen to you, then you don't have a flinch.

Exactly... Knowing when the trigger breaks makes many people flinch right before.

Wordupmybrotha 05-15-2018 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MosinVirus (Post 21644067)
Not caring would mean that you are making a steady pull through without moving the gun regardless of where the trigger breaks. You don't pause before the trigger break, you don't "final adjust"... It simply doesn't matter.

You don't ever stage the trigger?

MosinVirus 05-15-2018 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha (Post 21644077)
You don't ever stage the trigger?

I try not to. The only time I flinch is when I start thinking about when it "should" break.
The only triggers I stage are the 2 stage triggers. But I started training myself to pull through anything and everything. I think that will make me shoot better.

So, yeah, I would want to not ever care when the trigger breaks (or I guess you can call it being surprised) rather than anticipating a break

ruchik 05-15-2018 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha (Post 21644077)
You don't ever stage the trigger?

I do on DA guns. Did it with my duty weapon at longer ranges, and it worked just fine.

I believe the key is that it doesn't matter how you pull the trigger, as long at the moment the trigger breaks, you need to be pressing that trigger straight back. How you get there is entirely up to you, as long as you can do it accurately and consistently.

ZX9ALLDAY 05-15-2018 1:04 PM

Ive learned to shoot pistols on Youtube .. and ive heard that saying numerous times. Trying it actually helps because i find myself flinching or messing up my grip when i try to anticipate the trigger break. It also helps me pull through the trigger.

trackcage 05-15-2018 1:08 PM

Good advise for total newbies who need to trick their brain and not anticipate.

Bad advise and a crutch for more experienced shooters

MosinVirus 05-15-2018 1:08 PM

I think it is important to consider a couple of things here:

1. I think we can all agree that the reason we usually say someone is anticipating something when they start shooting low is because they know what will happen next.

2. I think we can all also agree that the reaction time when you are truly surprised by something is much slower than when you are anticipating something (holding yourself on the edge)

My wife does this. She knows when the gun is going to go off and she flinches every single time until she gets comfortable (stops caring). Usually toward the end of the range session.

I have handed her one of my .45acp 1911s before she ever shot a 1911. She was shooting her Glock 19 and VP9. She was a little worried about .45acp but she took it, aimed and hit dead center bullseye. All consecutive shots went low left.

Moral of the story is that being "surprised" is not a bad thing in itself. Reacting to being surprised or expecting to be surprised and reacting to that is a bad thing.

That is why I am saying that I think it is best to not focus on where the trigger breaks. The focus should be on not moving the gun through the trigger pull.

And no, I have no idea if I am right or wrong. That is what I think I need to do myself.

200Apples 05-15-2018 1:10 PM

After the Four Rules* the best advice I've ever had as an aid to my marksmanship was, "Every shot should be a surprise".

It is more of a technique than it is a philosophy...

No offense intended, but if one cannot read between the lines on that one, then, there's no persuading them one way or another.

There are many ways to skin a cat, or, "there's an a** for every saddle". :laugh:



*The Four Rules

1. All guns are always loaded
2. Never let your muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target
4. Know your target and what is behind it

sonofeugene 05-15-2018 1:10 PM

Good advice at first, but then you need to get to know the trigger.

Wordupmybrotha 05-15-2018 1:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruchik (Post 21644098)
I do on DA guns. Did it with my duty weapon at longer ranges, and it worked just fine.

I believe the key is that it doesn't matter how you pull the trigger, as long at the moment the trigger breaks, you need to be pressing that trigger straight back. How you get there is entirely up to you, as long as you can do it accurately and consistently.

I stage it sometimes on my S&W K22, but tires out my finger so I just pull straight back most of the time.

Dano3467 05-15-2018 1:12 PM

This can help some for people with the pre jerk (flinch) IMHO

200Apples 05-15-2018 1:14 PM

Sorry, Mosin, my post was directed towards the first post in the thread.

As always, sir, that is great advice and a good post. :thumbsup:

Wordupmybrotha 05-15-2018 1:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZX9ALLDAY (Post 21644144)
Ive learned to shoot pistols on Youtube .. and ive heard that saying numerous times. Trying it actually helps because i find myself flinching or messing up my grip when i try to anticipate the trigger break. It also helps me pull through the trigger.

One of the best tips I learned on YouTube was Hickok45's video on following through on a shot. Just as a basketball player leaves his shooting hand up after a shot, point the muzzle at the target after the shot is fired.

DVSmith 05-15-2018 1:29 PM

As an instructor, I frequently use that technique in conjunction with concentrating on sight alignment and sight picture. If I get them to slowly squeeze the trigger while keeping the sites on target then they are likely to hit what they intend.

toonmeister 05-15-2018 1:31 PM

yup...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zinfull (Post 21644032)
To late to flinch after the bang. It worked for me.

Exactly.

Any "reaction" you have when you hear the bang is already way past the point when the projectile has left the barrel, and thus will not effect the shot.

17+1 05-15-2018 1:59 PM

Squeeze slowly while concentrating on holding steady on target and keeping the sights aligned.

Works pretty well for the most part.

Lead Waster 05-15-2018 2:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha (Post 21644046)
I care to know when it goes bang. Poll is up

OK, but why? You are already pulling the trigger so you KNOW it will fire at what you are aiming at. Firing the gun is already a made decision. if it's not then don't pull the trigger. The gun will only fire if you pull the trigger... so why do you need to know if it's this millisecond or that millisecond?

lightcav 05-15-2018 2:20 PM

Its really inconsequential, makes no difference at all. What matters is practice. New shooters are new. Duh, right? So they simply need to put more rounds downrange until they become comfortable with the bang and recoil. What they really need to focus on is a proper stance, grip, and trigger pull which all should be practiced with an unloaded gun first. Once they get comfortable with dryfire they can move on to live fire.

I personally think its bad advice. I think you should be ready for it but not anticipate it. Thats impossible at first, but very natural after shooting enough. There's no shortcuts for newbies. Everyone has to practice if they want to get better.

All new shooters have to build muscle memory and the only way to do that is repetition albeit with good technique so you dont teach yourself bad habits.

Lead Waster 05-15-2018 2:29 PM

My advice for flinching is to .... wear both earplugs and earmuffs.

What causes your to flinch? Is it the push of the gun? No, it's the loud bang. So ... wear more ear pro and you won't flinch. Imagine if the gun fired normally, but made no sound whatsoever ... would you flinch? Probably not. If you shot a metal airsoft gun that had gas blowback (that "cycles" the slide) would you flinch? No. Why? Because it's not a loud sound.

So ... double up, learn to shoot flinchlessly, then you can stop doubling up.

Pupulepeter 05-15-2018 2:30 PM

The break is only one part of the trigger pull. The gun going off shouldn’t be as much of a concern as sight alignment and follow through.

tbc 05-15-2018 2:30 PM

Squeeeeze until the bang surprises you? Legit advice?
 
For the beginner crowd, step away from the keyboards and follow the surprised break technique to overcome the flinch.

For the experienced crowd that shoot at speed, hold it as tight as possible. Is that correct? I am no expert.

For the experienced bullseye crowd, know when the trigger breaks to align with the wobbling pattern. Right? Again, I am no expert.

For the crowd that has been shooting for decades but still have the habit of flinching, may the force be with you because there is no cure. Yes, I am an expert in this area [emoji3]

russ69 05-15-2018 2:35 PM

OK guys, from a precision shooting perspective (a very demanding discipline), the most important thing is SIGHT ALINGNMENT. You have to work hard to keep the sights aligned (front and read sight level and equal gaps)while you are increasing pressure on the trigger. Yes, you'll know when you are getting close but the idea is to hold the alignment as good as you can until the shot breaks.

hermosabeach 05-15-2018 2:39 PM

The advice
Is different for different skill shooters

Early on, surprise break is key to not flinching

As you advance, each shot is a controlled break without disturbing - sight alignment and sight picture.

Wordupmybrotha 05-15-2018 2:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lead Waster (Post 21644330)
OK, but why? You are already pulling the trigger so you KNOW it will fire at what you are aiming at. Firing the gun is already a made decision. if it's not then don't pull the trigger. The gun will only fire if you pull the trigger... so why do you need to know if it's this millisecond or that millisecond?

It's about efficiency - not wasting energy and avoiding unnecessary movements. The "every shot should be a surprise " method causes the shooter to grip the gun tight and hold the sight picture for indefinite period of time until they're surprised by the break.

When I shoot, I don't tense up my body the entire time. I hold the gun firmly while I get the sight picture and when I have everything lined up, I firm up my grip, and squeeze. My focus and grip intensifies just before the break.

200Apples 05-15-2018 2:51 PM

Quote:

The "every shot should be a surprise " method causes the shooter to grip the gun tight and hold the sight picture for indefinite period of time until they're surprised by the break.
It does?

:laugh:

How can you be sure? :D

Wordupmybrotha 05-15-2018 2:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lead Waster (Post 21644388)
My advice for flinching is to .... wear both earplugs and earmuffs.

What causes your to flinch? Is it the push of the gun? No, it's the loud bang. So ... wear more ear pro and you won't flinch. Imagine if the gun fired normally, but made no sound whatsoever ... would you flinch? Probably not. If you shot a metal airsoft gun that had gas blowback (that "cycles" the slide) would you flinch? No. Why? Because it's not a loud sound.

So ... double up, learn to shoot flinchlessly, then you can stop doubling up.

Doubling up and using quality ear pro has merit. Also newbs flinch, because they fear the explosion. Fear of getting hurt.

Wordupmybrotha 05-15-2018 2:53 PM

"Being surprised" means being startled?

Wordupmybrotha 05-15-2018 2:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 200Apples (Post 21644468)
It does?

:laugh:

How can you be sure? :D

If one doesn't know when the shot is going to break, I suppose they'll be tense indefinitely until they're surprised. :shrug:

OCEquestrian 05-15-2018 3:01 PM

Trigger control:

Slow steady even pressure straight to the rear, careful not to disturb sight alignment and sight picture, so that at the conclusion of the pressure ends with a surprise break for the shooter.

Meaning... Not anticipating the recoil and adjusting your sight alignment / sight picture in the process. Being surprised when the sear breaks / striker is released in the firing sequence is different than being surprised that the gun actually goes off... :rofl2:

teflondog 05-15-2018 3:01 PM

The bang doesn't surprise me because nothing surprises me. I'm ready for anything.

ZX9ALLDAY 05-15-2018 3:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha (Post 21644210)
One of the best tips I learned on YouTube was Hickok45's video on following through on a shot. Just as a basketball player leaves his shooting hand up after a shot, point the muzzle at the target after the shot is fired.


hickock is the man. but yes it def has helped me ... with any firearm

Califpatriot 05-15-2018 3:10 PM

They were big on that at Appleseed.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:59 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.