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View Full Version : no knock warrent for posession of a fish tank?? WTF


five.five-six
04-30-2008, 4:21 PM
I hope someone starts paying attention, because this may not turn out so well at my house :(

no-knock served on fish tank owner (http://www.kare11.com/video/player.aspx?aid=69028&bw=)

USN CHIEF
04-30-2008, 4:30 PM
WTF? I surely hope that the PD gets alot of money taken away from them...

Linh
04-30-2008, 4:46 PM
WOW that is terrible what has america become? Just cause someone called and said something? Makes people think twice before they call someone to work inside their house. Those detectives aren't that bright they could have scouted out the house/ got the know the people there before making a bust.

A little off topic but Kinda like that story in texas. Where some lady in CO calls and said that they had her locked up in a basement in texas. So they send swat/tanks/lots of cops and didn't find any girl locked up in a basement. But they "found some other stuff"

Spitfire75
04-30-2008, 4:49 PM
I am SO screwed!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/ocsk8brdr/Calguns/MethFish.jpg

CSACANNONEER
04-30-2008, 4:54 PM
Watch out! LA will have an LA Fishtank Task Force soon!

LECTRIKHED
04-30-2008, 4:56 PM
I'll post pics soon. We need a fish tank thread.

PatriotnMore
04-30-2008, 4:57 PM
I am embarrassed for the police of that community. They owe that family a big apology, and shame on them for not doing their homework first.

buff_01
04-30-2008, 5:07 PM
It reminds me of this story:

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/01/fatal-shooting-officer-leaves-neighborhood-numb

How is it possible to justify "no knock" drug raid on something as flimsy as a tip from a random person? It's ludicrous.

five.five-six
04-30-2008, 5:09 PM
Those detectives aren't that bright they could have scouted out the house/ got the know the people there before making a bust.
that lady in the interview... meath head... yea right maybe 3-4 methheads rolled into one but I gaurentee you she had more for breakfast than 3 meth-heads eat in a week LOL


A little off topic but Kinda like that story in texas. Where some lady in CO calls and said that they had her locked up in a basement in texas. So they send swat/tanks/lots of cops and didn't find any girl locked up in a basement. But they "found some other stuff"

seems to me that they never found that girl at all, just an anynomous tip

detective 1: go call 911 and say you are a girl, use a high voice

detective 2: what???

detective 1: say you are pregnant and forced to marry your father or somthing weird like that

detective 2: why???

detective 1: I just want to get in there and that will get us a warrent

detective 2: wow great idea, what's the number for 911

side shot of my current tank

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6572/img1846of6.jpg

FTS

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6505/img1861hm3.jpg

M. Sage
04-30-2008, 5:25 PM
WTF? I surely hope that the PD gets alot of money taken away from them...

Not just the PD. The subcontractor who called in the tip should be sued into oblivion. That's just freaking ridiculous.

And issuing a no-knock on something as flimsy as "I smelled a chemical smell that made me light-headed while I was installing a water heater"? Gee, you think you might have got a little natural gas and got light-headed from that, you moron? I don't know what they told the judge to get that warrant, but it had to be a great story.

Or the judge needs to go, too.

ETA: They didn't say no-knock. She was asleep and might not have heard a knock and announce. So it might not have been a no-knock, but it's still ridiculous.

RomanDad
04-30-2008, 5:44 PM
Kathy is going to be set for Ding Dongs for the rest of her life....

five.five-six
04-30-2008, 6:01 PM
ETA: They didn't say no-knock. She was asleep and might not have heard a knock and announce. So it might not have been a no-knock, but it's still ridiculous.

well they did show a kicked in front door

news flash, one of the guys on an aquarium forum has somthing that the DA should Be very interested in....... proof that they were guilty


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http://consumerist.com/assets/images/consumerist/2008/04/con_fishtankmethlab494.jpg

Waingro
04-30-2008, 6:34 PM
That is just awful, it sounds like something out of Nazi Germany. All because of a smell? Man, I hope no one comes into my house after I poop.

odesskiy
04-30-2008, 6:47 PM
Well, he's a re-post of my $.02 on GlockTalk.

I try to put myself in the place of this poor couple and I can only imagine the tragic outcome.

1) I own a rottweiler, that is the sweetest and most loving pet you can imagine. Yet she would be very unkind to the idea of strangers breaking down the door in the milddle of the night. As some LEOs said in a different thread, if it's a rottie or a pit, anything other than sitting down or running away would result in shots fired. Trust me, she would NOT be running away and would most likely end up killed trying to protect me and my g/f.

2) I am a law-abiding citizen. As such I cannot foresee any reason whatsoever for police to break down my front door in the middle of the night. What would any of us do if they heard the door crashing? I have a Mossberg 590 loaded with 00 and a Glock 23 next to my bed. What do you think I would do if I hear my dog being shot in my house? I am pretty sure in my case, a "mistaken" no-knock warrant would result in a bloodbath. Of course in the aftermath I would be painted as a gun-wielding blood-thirsty maniac who tried to assault police officers doing their difficult jobs.

When will these morons learn that no-knock warrants are not a good substitute for the actual good ol'-fashioned police work?!

Shotgun Man
04-30-2008, 6:47 PM
I believe overall this story is illustrative of how the judiciary is a subserviant lapdog of the executive branch.

The judge wants to get re-elected. I don't think too many refuse to sign search warrants.

Their reasoning goes like-- What do I have here? A stack of papers signed by a cop? You want a warrant? Sure! I would not to offend you guys. Did I sign it fast enough? Do I really need to read this?

tyrist
04-30-2008, 6:55 PM
On a no knock warrant you just don't knock. When you enter you still identify yourself as police officers. Tips from anonymous sources usually don't result in a warrant I am aware of unles the person is a reliable informant and it's stated anonymous to protect there identity. We don't have the whole story as I am sure there has to be something more to it. You guys are also not aware of this contractors past reliability. He may have been 100% till this time and that goes into getting a warrant as well.

As far as somebody calling from another location saying they were being held hostage. That is an exigent circumstance and your door is getting kicked in and your house searched. Doors and property damage can be repaired, and people can be unhandcuffed but somebody being held hostage and killed cannot be undone so it goes to the "possible" victim. There has been more than a few calls of shots fired and somebody down which led to large drug arrests. I guess drug dealers cannot trust their clients huh....too bad evidence admissable.

five.five-six
04-30-2008, 7:00 PM
There has been more than a few calls of shots fired and somebody down which led to large drug arrests. I guess drug dealers cannot trust their clients huh....too bad evidence admissable.

Got any addresses you want me to call in and say I am being held at?

tyrist
04-30-2008, 7:04 PM
Got any addresses you want me to call in and say I am being held at?

NO....That would be a crime.

PatriotnMore
04-30-2008, 7:12 PM
I love it when someone says "we don't know all the facts" or, "we don't know the whole story". I know the Detective interviewed had the opportunity to present the facts, and failed to explain them, or gain public support. I know the woman whose house was broken into gave the facts as they unfolded.
The only facts that seem to be missing is from the contractor who made the phone call, and that seems to be a moot point in this situation because, neither the contractor, or the companies official, or the Detective seemed to think it was important enough to comment on.

Shotgun Man
04-30-2008, 7:14 PM
On a no knock warrant you just don't knock. When you enter you still identify yourself as police officers. Tips from anonymous sources usually don't result in a warrant I am aware of unles the person is a reliable informant and it's stated anonymous to protect there identity. We don't have the whole story as I am sure there has to be something more to it.

As far as somebody calling from another location saying they were being held hostage. That is an exigent circumstance and your door is getting kicked in and your house searched. Doors and property damage can be repaired, and people can be unhandcuffed but somebody being held hostage and killed cannot be undone so it goes to the "possible" victim. There has been more than a few calls of shots fired and somebody down which led to large drug arrests. I guess drug dealers cannot trust their clients huh....too bad evidence admissable.


I thought I read the entire thread, but if you are replying to something specific, you should quote it. It helps out us old guys.

This is not an anonymous tip case. The so-called tip came from a worker who readily identified himself.

You can unhandcuff a person, or you can release a person from prison for a crime that they did not commit, but you cannot you undo the trauma and sense of violation that occurs when the government oversteps and encroaches on our liberties including those of the least among us.

The sanctity of the home, the blessing of human liberty, the right to be secure in your person and property... it apparently means very little. This article illustrates how the government and police are so eager to cast the founding principles of this country aside.

I believe this situation arises largely because the judiciary does not function as check on the excesses of the police. It is almost as though they have become partners.

Our government was founded on the principle of separation of power. Regrettably, this principle is likely being undermined every day in every court in every state in every municipality in America.

My advice to that poor woman would be to go on a diet and get the best police abuse attorney known to humankind.

five.five-six
04-30-2008, 7:21 PM
NO....That would be a crime.


ok good, I guess that means it never happens

don't ask, dont tell ;)

MrTuffPaws
04-30-2008, 7:25 PM
26 gallon fresh water. One the tail end of a fishless cycle. Only been up and running for close to a month now.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h45/MrTuffPaws/CIMG1722.jpg

virulosity
04-30-2008, 8:02 PM
I can't beleive our government still allows no-knock warrants. It is nothing but a good way to get innocent people and LEO's killed or injured.

rue
04-30-2008, 8:04 PM
Well, he's a re-post of my $.02 on GlockTalk.

I try to put myself in the place of this poor couple and I can only imagine the tragic outcome.

1) I own a rottweiler, that is the sweetest and most loving pet you can imagine. Yet she would be very unkind to the idea of strangers breaking down the door in the milddle of the night. As some LEOs said in a different thread, if it's a rottie or a pit, anything other than sitting down or running away would result in shots fired. Trust me, she would NOT be running away and would most likely end up killed trying to protect me and my g/f.

2) I am a law-abiding citizen. As such I cannot foresee any reason whatsoever for police to break down my front door in the middle of the night. What would any of us do if they heard the door crashing? I have a Mossberg 590 loaded with 00 and a Glock 23 next to my bed. What do you think I would do if I hear my dog being shot in my house? I am pretty sure in my case, a "mistaken" no-knock warrant would result in a bloodbath. Of course in the aftermath I would be painted as a gun-wielding blood-thirsty maniac who tried to assault police officers doing their difficult jobs.

When will these morons learn that no-knock warrants are not a good substitute for the actual good ol'-fashioned police work?!

I too own a rotty and she will not let anyone come into her turf without a fight. I hope it never happens to me but if it does I figure it will be enough time to grab my nightstand piece and defend my home. Frankly I'm glad I didn't see that thread where LEO's said that because I'd be all over that one with a passion.
I'd ironic that they would make a statement like that when they depend on K9's to do there job as well.

Shane916
04-30-2008, 8:13 PM
I can't beleive our government still allows no-knock warrants. It is nothing but a good way to get innocent people and LEO's killed or injured.

It may appear that way, but it actually saves more lives and ensures a large number of apprehensions and convictions of criminals. Of course with the media you will hear about a few bad searches a year. The other tens of thousands of warrants served conclude rather successfully and yet you never hear of them...

odesskiy
04-30-2008, 8:19 PM
Without arguing the nature v. nurture theory in different breeds, etc. Think about this. A team of LEOs is executing a search warrant and rams the front door. Upon entry they are immediately faced with a 100+ lbs dog charging. What do you think they are going to do? Now imagine it's YOUR house.

I think no-knock warrants should be prohibited on the federal level. A lot of tragedies can be prevented.



I too own a rotty and she will not let anyone come into her turf without a fight. I hope it never happens to me but if it does I figure it will be enough time to grab my nightstand piece and defend my home. Frankly I'm glad I didn't see that thread where LEO's said that because I'd be all over that one with a passion.
I'd ironic that they would make a statement like that when they depend on K9's to do there job as well.

50 Freak
04-30-2008, 8:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am embarrassed for the police of that community. They owe that family a big apology, and shame on them for not doing their homework first.

Screw the apology...the police of that community will owe that family a big fact check...paid for courtesy of the taxpayers of that community. Where do you think that city is going to get the 7 figure check...community parks, kids programs, elderly programs, etc.

Shotgun Man
04-30-2008, 8:58 PM
Screw the apology...the police of that community will owe that family a big fact check...paid for courtesy of the taxpayers of that community. Where do you think that city is going to get the 7 figure check...community parks, kids programs, elderly programs, etc.

Sadly, the police probably have immunity for this. Certainly, the rookie idiot judge has immunity.

I don't know the answer.

fleegman
04-30-2008, 9:07 PM
This reminds me of when I lived in Everett, Washington State, about 15 years ago. An apartment in the building I used to lived in was no-knock raided by Everett swat in the wee hours. They were tipped that a man involved in a fatal armored car robbery lived there. Turned out the tip came from someone with a grudge against the family, they were innocent, but swat executed the wife and mother during the raid with a single shot to the neck with an MP5. You think I'm being silly by saying "executed"? Testimony from the cops was that the mother was "accidentally" shot when she suddenly ran around a corner, and was then handcuffed and made to kneel. While handcuffed and kneeling, the mother was repeating "please don't hurt the children". This was their testimony. Problem is, the coroners report said the fatal shot destroyed her vocal chords and windpipe. Which means she was shot after being handcuffed. The cops testimony then changed to something about an accidental trigger-pull, and the department spokesman said that "these are tense situations for our officers, and they will do what they have to to defend themselves and their fellow officers". Including killing a mother in front of her children. No officers were prosecuted, but the city settled for some serious dough. Big deal.

I decided that day what I would do when armed men break into my home. I would shoot first and keep shooting. Armed men breaking into my home is a tense situation, and I will "do what I have to do to protect myself and my fellow family members". I will not take the chance that some trigger-happy thug might kill a loved one, and then shrug and lie about in court, and get away with it. And a thug with a badge is still a thug.

CCWFacts
04-30-2008, 9:10 PM
How is it possible to justify "no knock" drug raid on something as flimsy as a tip from a random person? It's ludicrous.

That's how it works these days. Don't like your neighbor? Call in an anonymous tip! If your neighbor happens to be a gun owner who keeps a gun for self defense, and the drug task force comes into the guy's house at 5am, well, it's just like murder except no one is guilty of it.

M. Sage
04-30-2008, 9:18 PM
I don't know the answer.

One suggestion:
Remove immunity from the judge and police.

dwa
04-30-2008, 9:37 PM
heres an idea... stage to hit the house hard... then have someone knock on the door at a decent hour if it dont work out your still staged to hit the house. ive hit well into the hundreds of houses and had several situations where i was well into the rules of engament to fire and have not because common sense dictated that i dont, being a retard doesnt mean u should get shot. i think alot of time the police are trying to be more badass than they need to be. ill find out first had i guess as i am entertaining the idea of becomeing an leo

P.S. i may have read wrong but i beilve it said that he had fired through the door when killing the cop, thats a no no you didnt see the target or give them an oppertunity identify themself when confronted. it could have been a friend for his suprise birthday party.(not literally but u get the idea)

mxbundy
04-30-2008, 10:16 PM
It reminds me of this story:

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/01/fatal-shooting-officer-leaves-neighborhood-numb

How is it possible to justify "no knock" drug raid on something as flimsy as a tip from a random person? It's ludicrous.

Here is some more info on this story.......http://www.reason.com/news/show/125538.html

Some mor facts and testimony from neighbors makes the "official" story sound like a rail road job.

Harrison_Bergeron
04-30-2008, 10:29 PM
In the case where a citizen mistakenly (and allegedly) shot through his door at a raiding police officer, the citizen is facing a murder charge; in the case where a raiding police officer mistakenly shot through a door and killed a citizen, there were no criminal charges.

Only thing that matters.

PatriotnMore
04-30-2008, 10:45 PM
What is disturbing with informants are,they run around committing crime, selling/taking drugs, all with the police blessing. Its even worse at the Federal level with committing crime. MANY of these informants have murdered, and continue their life of crime, all with the blessing of certain three letter Government agencies.
So, want to get even, I've got a tip. Help a friend get even, I've got a tip. Get rid of the competition, I've got a tip.
Yes, they can and are useful as informants, but EVERY tip needs to be completely investigated and analyzed, and even then, common sense MUST apply.

cbn620
04-30-2008, 10:59 PM
All the wars our government wages today infringe on individual liberties, including but not limited to the War on Drugs and the War on Terrorism. These "wars" breed fear and fear breeds power.

The bottom line is, as an advocate of freedoms, I say we abolish the war on drugs the same way I wish we'd abolish the war on guns. Both drugs and guns are harmless if left to their own volition. A line of coke or a bag of meth sitting on a counter is not going to harm anyone unless they let it. We always make the argument that we punish the law abiding citizen with gun laws when we treat said citizen as if he were a criminal just because he owns a gun. Likewise, I make the argument that we're only punishing the law abiding citizen if we treat him like a drug dealer because he buys chemicals.

Think about it: You may hate drugs and what they do to communities, but let's face it here. It's a personal choice to partake in drugs, and no governmental authority is going to fix anything. Drugs aren't homewreckers anymore than guns are. We may argue that drugs wreck homes when moms decide to take them instead of raising their kids; we may say that the after effects of one person using drugs effects many people. But in the same right, gun violence effects a multitude of people. Something having the potential to negatively affect society does not give the government the right to regulate.

If you don't want to do drugs, cool. I don't either. But prohibition is not an answer to this problem. It didn't work for alcohol, it's not working for guns, and it's definitely not working for drugs. I don't want the jackboots busting my door down at an obscene hour to fight some "evil" such as drugs that does not and will never effect my life.

robitrocks
05-01-2008, 5:56 AM
My advice to that poor woman would be to go on a diet and get the best police abuse attorney known to humankind.

Amen.

ibanezfoo
05-01-2008, 6:41 AM
The video wouldn't play for me, whats the summary of it?

There are certain types of algae that are banned in California..... you have to get the it the same way you get drugs. Or so I've heard.... I'd imagine you'd feel like a total schmuck having to go to a shady place to pick up some algae to throw in your refugium to help clean your water...

-Bryan

Mitch
05-01-2008, 8:28 AM
WOW that is terrible what has america become? Just cause someone called and said something?

No right is too precious to be surrendered in our pursuit of HOMELAND SECURITY!

:79:

Fate
05-01-2008, 10:29 AM
No right is too precious to be surrendered in our pursuit of HOMELAND SECURITY!

:79:
Read my first sig line.

Harrison_Bergeron
05-01-2008, 10:46 AM
Private contractor came to home of a couple in their 50s to install a water heater, he saw and smelled a lot of chemicals in a secondary bathroom, commented on them, woman explained that they were the chemicals her husband used to maintain his salt water fish tank. Contractor contacted police, said he suspected the couple was maintaining a meth lab. Police busted through door at night while couple slept, cuffed them in living room and inspected "lab". City payed another contractor to come out first thing the next day to replace busted door.

The video wouldn't play for me, whats the summary of it?

There are certain types of algae that are banned in California..... you have to get the it the same way you get drugs. Or so I've heard.... I'd imagine you'd feel like a total schmuck having to go to a shady place to pick up some algae to throw in your refugium to help clean your water...

-Bryan

PatriotnMore
05-01-2008, 11:21 AM
Gun laws do not protect citizens from harm, or from being used as weapons of convenience, nor do they serve the public collectively. Any person with the resolute conviction to kill or cause bodily harm, will do so with whatever is available. If not a gun, a knife, a club, a car, or an explosive device, it will be something else.

Always look at motive, and profit. The one who profits most, has the greatest motive.

If we are not guaranteed the right of police protection as an individual under the Constitution, why would the Government want to take away our ability to protect ourselves from those who have guns?
That would include individuals, police, military, or ANY group, Government, or entity that has guns, and could/would use them against, we the people.
Guns have always been, the great advantage, and equalizer, depending on who, or who does not have them. Take away the equalizer, and now you have the clear advantage. Having that advantage for a Government, police, military, or group(s), clearly is motive to deny one from the other, if ones agenda were less than honorable.

pnkssbtz
05-01-2008, 12:11 PM
Salem Witch trials anyone?

Now at the drop of a hat, we can exact vengeance on our petty grudges simply by whispering sweet magical words to the agents of force employed by our government.

Without any solid evidence and only the word of a single individual the government can send guys out to your house, force entry and threaten to kill you.

All on the word of a single individual, anonymous or not.

Mitch
05-01-2008, 12:18 PM
Now at the drop of a hat, we can exact vengeance on our petty grudges simply by whispering sweet magical words to the agents of force employed by our government.

Without any solid evidence and only the word of a single individual the government can send guys out to your house, force entry and threaten to kill you.

And if necessary, they can make it look like suicide: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D90CVQ3O2&show_article=1

1911su16b870
05-01-2008, 2:24 PM
The home owners should be getting a settlement from the city or repair man etc. (everyone involved will get sued). The informant for the warrant was not reliable, a water heater repairman is an expert on meth lab chemicals?, yeah right :rolleyes: The main point here IMO, the warrant was wrong, pd entered, the homeowners complied (did not resist), civil rights violated, but are alive.

duenor
05-01-2008, 2:42 PM
Both Kathy and the detective need a bit of a diet! =P

But on a serious note - no knocks are a necessary part of law enforcement. HOWEVER they should only be used when absolutely necessary - as in you know that there are going to be armed goons inside. In this kind of a situation, a no knock was silly. They could EASILY have done this with far more finesse, and I personally know cops who have done just that many times.

Here's how I would have done it:
1. Get a cop to dress up in a Pizza Hut uniform and drive up with the pizza hut box and stuff. SWAT guys sneak up to the door, and hide out of sight. The pizza guy rings the door bell a bunch of times, and demands his money. When the guy says he didn't order it, the pizza guy offers to simply just give him the pizza for free since he's going to get charged anyway.

2. door opens, swat grabs the guy, and then you go from there.

or, they could also nab each guy coming out as they leave the house. use a cell phone jammer in an unmarked car.

but see in either of these two scenarios the swat team doesnt get to shine, they dont get to practice their dynamic entries, and politicians start wondering whether they really need their big budgets after all.

PatriotnMore
05-01-2008, 2:49 PM
How about a stake out to see the activity and traffic frequenting the residence, using chemical sniffers to detect the kind of chemicals to process meth, talk to the neighbors and see how they feel about the people living next to them, checking the trash when they take it out for disposal, you know, simple police homework.

MudCamper
05-01-2008, 2:56 PM
I can't beleive our government still allows no-knock warrants. It is nothing but a good way to get innocent people and LEO's killed or injured.

It may appear that way, but it actually saves more lives and ensures a large number of apprehensions and convictions of criminals. Of course with the media you will hear about a few bad searches a year. The other tens of thousands of warrants served conclude rather successfully and yet you never hear of them...

I must quote good 'ol Ben on this one:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

No-knock warrants are an abomination of law.

five.five-six
05-01-2008, 4:19 PM
The video wouldn't play for me, whats the summary of it?

There are certain types of algae that are banned in California..... you have to get the it the same way you get drugs. Or so I've heard.... I'd imagine you'd feel like a total schmuck having to go to a shady place to pick up some algae to throw in your refugium to help clean your water...

-Bryan


yea cularpa in california is a big no no

here is the gist of the video: click on the pic for the full story

http://consumerist.com/assets/images/consumerist/2008/04/con_fishtankmethlab494.jpg (http://consumerist.com/5007362/centerpoint-energy-thinks-your-fish-tank-is-a-meth-lab-so-police-kick-in-your-door)

Sniper3142
05-01-2008, 4:19 PM
@#$! cops think they can get away with anything just because they wear a badge. They damage property, disrupt and ruin lives and they don't even say sorry!

They are human beings just like the rest of us.

Maybe a reminder of that fact is in order.

:mad:

five.five-six
05-01-2008, 4:23 PM
And if necessary, they can make it look like suicide: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D90CVQ3O2&show_article=1

vince foster anyone???

dasmi
05-01-2008, 4:28 PM
How about a stake out to see the activity and traffic frequenting the residence, using chemical sniffers to detect the kind of chemicals to process meth, talk to the neighbors and see how they feel about the people living next to them, checking the trash when they take it out for disposal, you know, simple police homework.
That's too hard. It's more fun to get all the tactical gear on, load up the guns, and go ****ing ninja on people.
Hail the War on Drugs!

five.five-six
05-01-2008, 4:36 PM
apparently this happens a lot more than we would like to think, click on this map from the cato institute to find out more


http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4347/noknockcy4.jpg (http://www.cato.org/raidmap/#)

Rck'n'ROll
05-01-2008, 6:04 PM
[QUOTE=I decided that day what I would do when armed men break into my home. I would shoot first and keep shooting. Armed men breaking into my home is a tense situation, and I will "do what I have to do to protect myself and my fellow family members". I will not take the chance that some trigger-happy thug might kill a loved one, and then shrug and lie about in court, and get away with it. And a thug with a badge is still a thug.[/QUOTE]

+100000000000000000000, I could not say it any better myself.

Fate
05-01-2008, 7:34 PM
apparently this happens a lot more than we would like to think, click on this map from the cato institute to find out more


http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4347/noknockcy4.jpg (http://www.cato.org/raidmap/#)

I'm movin' to North Dakota! :D

mcubed4130
05-01-2008, 9:18 PM
apparently this happens a lot more than we would like to think, click on this map from the cato institute to find out more


http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4347/noknockcy4.jpg (http://www.cato.org/raidmap/#)

Holy... I knew it was a major issue... I didnt know it was THAT major... gezzus...

I'm thinking Wyoming or NV but not Las Vegas.

-M3

Pointcrossed
05-01-2008, 10:17 PM
The city should press charges on the contractor and throw him in jail for false accusation and being a dumbass; he is probably a meth addict, meth lab scientist (sorry I dont know what they call someone that makes meth), or recovering addict himself; only someone that stupid could make that assumption. LE do make mistakes from time to time and they pay for it, and try to repair the damage the best they can; you cant blame them for trying too hard to clean up the community.

Then again the Judge and the drug detective did jump the gun on this one...

What Drug dealer or meth lab scientist do you think would let a contractor in their house get their hot water heater fixed?:rolleyes:

ibanezfoo
05-02-2008, 9:17 AM
Private contractor came to home of a couple in their 50s to install a water heater, he saw and smelled a lot of chemicals in a secondary bathroom, commented on them, woman explained that they were the chemicals her husband used to maintain his salt water fish tank. Contractor contacted police, said he suspected the couple was maintaining a meth lab. Police busted through door at night while couple slept, cuffed them in living room and inspected "lab". City payed another contractor to come out first thing the next day to replace busted door.

Thanks for the summary! Good lord... what has this country become? Next we will have the Pioneers for our kids!

-Bryan

five.five-six
05-04-2008, 11:57 PM
I just saw a special on the military channel last night about how wonderful no knocks are.. they fallowed a SWAT team around, i watched then shoot 5 holes in someone's front door, bust down the rear door, bust out a window, ransack, and i do mean ransack the apartment, just throwing everything on the floor, laughing about it the entire time, huge jokes about the guys porn, most of it i could not understand because of all the bleeped out words. just sickening they found a gun above the kitchen cabinet and yelled out BINGO!! and just took it but they found no drugs or lab. so they just left the place, the senior officer was commenting on how successful the raid was because even though they did not catch anyone, and ther was no drugs, at least they got a gun and it "sent a message that they could go into any house at any time" or something to that extent, the other big win was that no cops got hurt, how about the poor S.O.B. that you may very well have killed had he been at work... he gets to come home to this *****

almost forgot, as they were rolling in, this senior officer makes the statement that we are going to try not to kill anybody... remembering he was on film changes its statement to we must make sure no one is hurt and on and on trying to cover up the truth that killing some one in a no knock is all in a days work for him and his crew

dasmi
05-05-2008, 7:06 AM
Land of the free, home of the brave, where you can get no knocked for something a contractor may have smelled in your home.

thegratenate
05-05-2008, 8:42 AM
It sounded like the company that employs the worker also backed him up by saying that it would have been irresponsible of him to not report the "chemical smells", and that the house was dangerous for people to work in. WTF, if he couldnt handle the smell of vinegar he should have left and sent some one else to do his job, not run to the authorities after doing the work and telling on the home owners.
My guess is that the company had just given some sort of training on how to "detect" illegal activities, and he was doing what he thought was his job.

I agree that a little bit of "police work" could have averted this whole situation, simply checking their phone records and keeping track of the people that come and go from the home for a few days would have clued in the "detectives" to the fact that nothing illegal was going on.

glockman19
05-05-2008, 8:46 AM
Moral to this story:

Know who is entering your house.

tyrist
05-05-2008, 9:01 AM
Both Kathy and the detective need a bit of a diet! =P

But on a serious note - no knocks are a necessary part of law enforcement. HOWEVER they should only be used when absolutely necessary - as in you know that there are going to be armed goons inside. In this kind of a situation, a no knock was silly. They could EASILY have done this with far more finesse, and I personally know cops who have done just that many times.



I would just like to add that no knocks are also necessary for evidence preservation. I have served a warrant and nothing is more annoying than knocking on the door and saying "police" only to hear a toilet flush.

buff_01
05-05-2008, 9:34 AM
Moral to this story:

Know who is entering your house.

I think the moral is "know whose house you are entering"

Glock22Fan
05-05-2008, 9:38 AM
I would just like to add that no knocks are also necessary for evidence preservation. I have served a warrant and nothing is more annoying than knocking on the door and saying "police" only to hear a toilet flush.

Is this more or less annoying, do you think, than being an innocent citizen subjected to the trauma of having the police break down your door without warning?

PatriotnMore
05-05-2008, 9:44 AM
I would just like to add that no knocks are also necessary for evidence preservation. I have served a warrant and nothing is more annoying than knocking on the door and saying "police" only to hear a toilet flush.

I don't think it is the position of most here is that there are not times a no knock warrant is not needed. It should however be only used when solid evidence has been accumulated, based on good investigated police work.

I don't think probable cause is a reason for a no knock, especially when it is based on hearsay evidence from someone who is not a cop.

I too am very concerned about the slippery slope we are sliding into with regards to tactics, where Civil/Constitutional rights are being thrown out the proverbial window. Specifically, how those searches are conducted.

We are being sold a bill of goods, by way of shows like Cops, Swat, ATF and the like, where paramilitary tactics are being used to against the civilian population on an SOP basis.

Are there instances where it should apply? Yes.

I don't want to live in a police state environment, and will speak against it at every opportunity, vote against it, and encourage it to be challenged in court.

It would serve the police better to operate in a civil regard to the population they serve, even in serving a warrant. If someone escalates a search conducted in a civil manor to violence, no one is going to blame them from doing what is needed to protect themselves.

CCWFacts
05-05-2008, 9:58 AM
I would just like to add that no knocks are also necessary for evidence preservation. I have served a warrant and nothing is more annoying than knocking on the door and saying "police" only to hear a toilet flush.

Our system of rights is designed that individuals have maximum freedom, and police are often annoyed.

And think of it, every time you do get there before the "perps" have a chance to flush, and you bust them, and put them in jail for 15 years, does it have any effect at all on drug prices or availability or usage?

(Btw, obviously, no-knock warrants are occasionally necessary. The obvious example is a hostage situation, where knocking and saying "police" and waiting for someone to answer might be a death sentence for the hostage. But for drugs? We weren't winning the War on Drugs before no-knocks and we're not winning it now with no-knocks. All we're doing is getting police officers killed when they don't need to be, home owners killed when they don't need to be, and home owners who exercise their right to self-defense and miraculously survive are getting sent to prison as murderers.)

PatriotnMore
05-05-2008, 10:14 AM
Our system of rights is designed that individuals have maximum freedom, and police are often annoyed.

And think of it, every time you do get there before the "perps" have a chance to flush, and you bust them, and put them in jail for 15 years, does it have any effect at all on drug prices or availability or usage?

(Btw, obviously, no-knock warrants are occasionally necessary. The obvious example is a hostage situation, where knocking and saying "police" and waiting for someone to answer might be a death sentence for the hostage. But for drugs? We weren't winning the War on Drugs before no-knocks and we're not winning it now with no-knocks. All we're doing is getting police officers killed when they don't need to be, home owners killed when they don't need to be, and home owners who exercise their right to self-defense and miraculously survive are getting sent to prison as murderers.)

The war on drugs is a miserable failure, in every way except through education. I don't see anywhere in the Constitution where it is our Governments function to regulate morality, except in some cases of the extreme.
I would encourage everyone to read Ron Paul's "A Revolution" regardless of your politics. It is an easy 167 page read, and those who believe in the Constitution, and America as it was intended,would have a hard time justifying the direction we are headed as a Nation.
It is not an irrelevant document that is outdated, and anyone who would believe that is part of the problem. It is as relevant today, as the day it was ratified.

mchector
05-05-2008, 12:20 PM
I'm gonna go listen to some NWA :mad:

mymonkeyman
05-05-2008, 12:24 PM
Btw, obviously, no-knock warrants are occasionally necessary. The obvious example is a hostage situation, where knocking and saying "police" and waiting for someone to answer might be a death sentence for the hostage.

Actually a hostage situation does not need a warrant at all under the doctrine of exigent circumstances.

Vectrexer
05-05-2008, 12:46 PM
All kinds of fun stuff:

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

tiki
05-05-2008, 2:28 PM
Sadly, the police probably have immunity for this. Certainly, the rookie idiot judge has immunity.

I don't know the answer.

No immunity. Sounds like a civil rights case to me.

mymonkeyman
05-05-2008, 2:56 PM
No immunity. Sounds like a civil rights case to me.

Wrong. Good faith exception because officers had warrant (unless they lied to judge in getting the warrant, the judge abandoned his neutral role, or the warrant was facially defective). Applies to both defeat the application of the exclusionary rule (US v. Leon) and to give the officers qualified immunity against 1983 actions (Malley v. Briggs).

Judges get absolute immunity unless they acted clearly outside their jurisdiction or the actions were non-judicial in nature.

five.five-six
05-05-2008, 5:35 PM
I would just like to add that no knocks are also necessary for evidence preservation. I have served a warrant and nothing is more annoying than knocking on the door and saying "police" only to hear a toilet flush.

um... if you can't arrest and probably convict the guy without whatever he flushed down the toilet, what the F are you doing with a no-knock anyways??? fishing???

tiki
05-06-2008, 7:06 AM
Wrong. Good faith exception because officers had warrant (unless they lied to judge in getting the warrant, the judge abandoned his neutral role, or the warrant was facially defective). Applies to both defeat the application of the exclusionary rule (US v. Leon) and to give the officers qualified immunity against 1983 actions (Malley v. Briggs).

Judges get absolute immunity unless they acted clearly outside their jurisdiction or the actions were non-judicial in nature.

Thanks for the clarification.

ibanezfoo
05-06-2008, 7:18 AM
I just saw a special on the military channel last night about how wonderful no knocks are.. they fallowed a SWAT team around, i watched then shoot 5 holes in someone's front door, bust down the rear door, bust out a window, ransack, and i do mean ransack the apartment, just throwing everything on the floor, laughing about it the entire time, huge jokes about the guys porn, most of it i could not understand because of all the bleeped out words. just sickening they found a gun above the kitchen cabinet and yelled out BINGO!! and just took it but they found no drugs or lab. so they just left the place, the senior officer was commenting on how successful the raid was because even though they did not catch anyone, and ther was no drugs, at least they got a gun and it "sent a message that they could go into any house at any time" or something to that extent, the other big win was that no cops got hurt, how about the poor S.O.B. that you may very well have killed had he been at work... he gets to come home to this *****

almost forgot, as they were rolling in, this senior officer makes the statement that we are going to try not to kill anybody... remembering he was on film changes its statement to we must make sure no one is hurt and on and on trying to cover up the truth that killing some one in a no knock is all in a days work for him and his crew

When they do this crap does the city or the department have to pay for all the damages? The things they break are not related to any crimes....

-Bryan

ibanezfoo
05-06-2008, 7:20 AM
I would just like to add that no knocks are also necessary for evidence preservation. I have served a warrant and nothing is more annoying than knocking on the door and saying "police" only to hear a toilet flush.

On the flip side, nothing is more annoying than sitting there watching TV and eating Froot Loops when some government thugs kick down your door and start smashing up your stuff while shoving guns in your face. ;)

-Bryan

eta34
05-06-2008, 8:00 AM
It sounded like the company that employs the worker also backed him up by saying that it would have been irresponsible of him to not report the "chemical smells", and that the house was dangerous for people to work in. WTF, if he couldnt handle the smell of vinegar he should have left and sent some one else to do his job, not run to the authorities after doing the work and telling on the home owners.
My guess is that the company had just given some sort of training on how to "detect" illegal activities, and he was doing what he thought was his job.

I agree that a little bit of "police work" could have averted this whole situation, simply checking their phone records and keeping track of the people that come and go from the home for a few days would have clued in the "detectives" to the fact that nothing illegal was going on.

Uh, how do we just "simply check" phone records? That requires a warrant. If it is truly a meth lab, waiting a few days creates a huge liability if the place blows up.

Back on topic: No knocks serve a purpose. Simple dope warrants are not part of that purpose. They should be reserved for extremely rare and difficult situations.

ETD1010
05-06-2008, 9:43 AM
Wow.. that makes me SOOOO angry... especially knowing what would happen if a law-abiding citizen (like myself) would to "defend" himself against the attack.. (IT WAS AN ATTACK by the officers).... I'm fumed...


In the mean time.. here's a pic of my 50 gal planted tank.. formally a sal****er tank.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m146/ETD1010/_MG_5843.jpg

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m146/ETD1010/_MG_5852.jpg

ibanezfoo
05-06-2008, 12:50 PM
In the mean time.. here's a pic of my 50 gal planted tank.. formally a sal****er tank.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Is that the profanity filter working overtime? :p

-Bryan

shark92651
05-06-2008, 3:56 PM
Here is some more info on this story.......http://www.reason.com/news/show/125538.html

Some mor facts and testimony from neighbors makes the "official" story sound like a rail road job.

Interesting, the parents of the guy that was killed by police over the theft of a PS3 were awarded $4.25 million. I was wondering whatever became of that situation.

tyrist
05-06-2008, 7:51 PM
um... if you can't arrest and probably convict the guy without whatever he flushed down the toilet, what the F are you doing with a no-knock anyways??? fishing???

You can arrest them, we have but no DA will file the case and a jury will not convict. You basically sentence them to 2 days in jail.

thegratenate
05-06-2008, 8:58 PM
Uh, how do we just "simply check" phone records? That requires a warrant. If it is truly a meth lab, waiting a few days creates a huge liability if the place blows up.

Back on topic: No knocks serve a purpose. Simple dope warrants are not part of that purpose. They should be reserved for extremely rare and difficult situations.

I must be misunderstanding something, "that requires a warrant" so what was it that they used to gain entry into this lady's house? A crumb cake recipe?

They had enough info to get a warrant to knock down the lady's door, but it wouldn't work for some non violent method of gathering evidence? I am fairly firm in my belief that something went wrong in that particular case, maybe looking at DMV fotos of their "suspects" would have clued the police in on the fact that a full on SWAT raid was not needed in order to take down this couple.



Sorry for getting so far off topic, but I think this particular case is a textbook way of how things can go wrong, someone should be told that they screwed up.

StukaJr
05-07-2008, 1:29 PM
It gets worse around the country:

Here is a no-knock warrant served in Arkansas:

http://www.theagitator.com/tracywarrants.pdf

^^ Read how little it takes to get a no-knock warrant, how little burden of proof is needed and the fact that the man is arrested with nothing but a bloody sheet.

And here is the aftermath:

http://reason.com/blog/show/126284.html#comments

Is it US Penal System or Abu Gharib?

MudCamper
05-07-2008, 2:03 PM
They had enough info to get a warrant to knock down the lady's door, but it wouldn't work for some non violent method of gathering evidence? I am fairly firm in my belief that something went wrong in that particular case, maybe looking at DMV fotos of their "suspects" would have clued the police in on the fact that a full on SWAT raid was not needed in order to take down this couple.

Here is the reason for that:

The obvious problem should be especially apparent to readers of this magazine: Once youíve got a cool tool, you kind of want to use it. Thatís true whether itís a pneumatic drill, a laser level or an armored fighting vehicle. SWAT teams, designed to deal with rare events, wound up doing routine police work, like serving drug warrants.

From an article titled, SWAT Overkill: The Danger of a Paramilitary Police Force (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/4203345.html).

StukaJr
05-07-2008, 2:20 PM
They had enough info to get a warrant to knock down the lady's door, but it wouldn't work for some non violent method of gathering evidence?


If house cannot be approached covertly - then permission for night time raid / no knock warrant seems to be an easy thing to get - mention of the danger to the officers and a chance of the suspect being forewarned... So any free standing house can technically fit the bill - since Judge does not actually get to review the house plans before signing the warrant, it's the officer's affidavit that will state whether the need for "no knock" entry is needed.

Granted that knocking on the door and serving the warrant VS breaking down the door and doing tactical entry does not give enough time to remove evidence of a Meth Lab. And if Gas repair technician had free access to the House - perhaps it would have worked to send in Police disguised as Gas Company inspection team of a sort has never come to mind.

Glock22Fan
05-07-2008, 3:21 PM
You can arrest them, we have but no DA will file the case and a jury will not convict. You basically sentence them to 2 days in jail.

If there's no hard evidence other than what you collect after the break-in, then you must be on a fishing trip.

My personal view is that the times SWAT should execute a No Knock warrent should be limited to occasions when hostages lives are otherwise at risk, and for very little else. Certainly, using them just because there is the possibility of a few dime bags, without which you cannot make a case, is a travesty of justice.

PatriotnMore
05-22-2008, 10:04 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/elderly.shootout.ap/index.html?eref=ib_topstories

Glad he's doing time. Maybe more of this, and the message will be loud and clear.

Lounge Machine
05-22-2008, 10:11 AM
I wish they would just start firing all these cops when they screw up instead of acting like they're entitled to this job.

Everybody else in the workforce gets fired when they screw up. It helps to keep people on the straight and narrow.

PatriotnMore
05-22-2008, 10:15 AM
Lie to save your a**, unheard of, only civillians, and criminals do that.