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buff_01
04-25-2008, 3:20 PM
Does anyone know what happened to the victims of gun confiscation during the Katrina clusterfrack? Were the LEOs ever punished? Did the people get their firearms back? Did anyone ever sue over the issue?

This has been bugging the hell out of me lately, and if anyone has any updated info, it would be greatly appreciated.

For anyone in the dark on what this is all about (I doubt there will be), the original story is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4

mvpatriot
04-25-2008, 3:27 PM
Good luck knocking on my front door after a natural disaster/martial law etc. You will be taking bullets, not guns.

IGOTDIRT4U
04-25-2008, 3:32 PM
Does anyone know what happened to the victims of gun confiscation during the Katrina clusterfrack? Were the LEOs ever punished? Did the people get their firearms back? Did anyone ever sue over the issue?

This has been bugging the hell out of me lately, and if anyone has any updated info, it would be greatly appreciated.

For anyone in the dark on what this is all about (I doubt there will be), the original story is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4


Many of the guns were never returned as owners could not prove ownership, or were not legally allowed to own guns. Many guns did get back the owners.

As to changes in the law, several states including LA adopted emergency laws that are designed to keep this from happening in these types of disaster situations.

Also, the PD department got sued for this, as well as the city and state. Last I heard, Fed appeals were being heard. I forgot if they went anywhere.

CA adopted a similar law last year protecting your right to keep your guns in a natural disaster or similar. I'll check the NRA-ILA site for the case.

pnkssbtz
04-25-2008, 4:01 PM
Many of the guns were never returned as owners could not prove ownership, or were not legally allowed to own guns. Many guns did get back the owners.

IIRC, the police were requiring a RECEIPT for the original purchase.

IGOTDIRT4U
04-25-2008, 4:06 PM
IIRC, the police were requiring a RECEIPT for the original purchase.


Yeah, and how likely is/was that!!!! :mad::confused:

bulgron
04-25-2008, 4:34 PM
You want to get and read this book (http://www.amazon.com/Great-New-Orleans-Gun-Grab/dp/0970981333/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209169988&sr=8-1). It pretty much explains what happened in NO after Katrina and what happened to all those guns.

I can't find my copy, but if memory serves the NRA is suing over what happened to ordinary law abiding citizens in the aftermath of Katrina.

IGOTDIRT4U
04-25-2008, 4:35 PM
You want to get and read this book (http://www.amazon.com/Great-New-Orleans-Gun-Grab/dp/0970981333/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209169988&sr=8-1). It pretty much explains what happened in NO after Katrina and what happened to all those guns.

I can't find my copy, but if memory serves the NRA is suing over what happened to ordinary law abiding citizens in the aftermath of Katrina.

I believe they won. That is the link I am trying to find.

buff_01
04-26-2008, 2:42 PM
Thanks guys. Any additional info or links to news stories would be appreciated.

I have certainly learned my lesson here. Unless they have a warrant, the feds/LEOs aren't going to be coming into my house without resistance if there is ever a disaster.

CCWFacts
04-26-2008, 2:55 PM
We had a thread on this before. My take:

Don't let LEOs into your house without a warrant. Duh.
However, don't fight back against them. That's a fight that can't be won.
Therefore, your disaster kit should include:
A throw-away gun, plus an extra gun or two hidden A rugged tapeless video camera

Repeat over and over, "I do not consent, you are committing a robbery, I am placing you under citizens arrest (but don't actually physically do it), I demand a receipt, what is your name and badge number, under which authority do you claim to be operating", while video taping.

Harrison_Bergeron
04-26-2008, 3:06 PM
What kind of manpower did they use to confiscate the guns in NO?

bwiese
04-26-2008, 3:23 PM
Don't let LEOs into your house without a warrant. Duh.
However, don't fight back against them. That's a fight that can't be won.
Therefore, your disaster kit should include:
A throw-away gun, plus an extra gun or two hidden
A rugged tapeless video camera

http://www.theflip.com

Bruce
04-27-2008, 12:54 PM
What kind of manpower did they use to confiscate the guns in NO?

The California Highway Patrol. :eek:

battleship
04-27-2008, 1:18 PM
What in fact did they win, sometimes i thinking winning realy is another way the system just trys to smooth things over, im sure alot of guns never made it back to the rightfull owners, and you cannot replace the beatings and harresment many lawfull citizens were put through, by the police forces. Unless these gun owners get an insane amount of money for the wrong doing that they recieved then i think this can and will happen again, I hope the police get sued up the ying yang over this and all who were involved do some jail time.

Sniper3142
04-27-2008, 1:28 PM
Good luck knocking on my front door after a natural disaster/martial law etc. You will be taking bullets, not guns.

AHMEN Brother.

:)

Liberty1
04-27-2008, 2:43 PM
What kind of manpower did they use to confiscate the guns in NO?

I duped

Harrison_Bergeron
04-27-2008, 5:03 PM
Huh?

The question was in response to this comment.
# However, don't fight back against them. That's a fight that can't be won.

Not really implying that one should shoot it out, just curious, how many officers did they waste on this while the city was being devastated. Seems like sending one or two cops to disarm someone in blatant violation of the 2nd would be asking for trouble, and sending a team would be wasting valuable resources.

buff_01
04-28-2008, 8:54 AM
We had a thread on this before. My take:

Don't let LEOs into your house without a warrant. Duh.
However, don't fight back against them. That's a fight that can't be won.
Therefore, your disaster kit should include:
A throw-away gun, plus an extra gun or two hidden A rugged tapeless video camera

Repeat over and over, "I do not consent, you are committing a robbery, I am placing you under citizens arrest (but don't actually physically do it), I demand a receipt, what is your name and badge number, under which authority do you claim to be operating", while video taping.

If the people in New Orleans had been taping, they would have still had their weapons confiscated, and they probably would have had the tape recorder confiscated as well. I don't think simply video recording something is the answer to this. What does it matter if you're killed the next day by looters?

bulgron
04-28-2008, 9:20 AM
If the people in New Orleans had been taping, they would have still had their weapons confiscated, and they probably would have had the tape recorder confiscated as well. I don't think simply video recording something is the answer to this. What does it matter if you're killed the next day by looters?

There are only two answers to gun confiscation of the sort that happened in NOLA:

1. Shoot the bastards when they come to take your guns. Not recommended because you'll generally end up dead too. Take this action only if you think the Constitution will not survive whatever strife is driving the gun confiscation, and at that attempt to link up with other defenders of the Constitution in order to form a more effective offense/defense.

2. Let them take your guns, collect as much information about the people doing the confiscation as is possible, and then sue them into oblivion after the fact. Once a few PDs have been bankrupted and a few cops have lost their homes and their careers, they won't be so quick to do it anymore.

To avoid all of this, we need better education for our professional police forces. Frankly, if the Police Academy final exam doesn't include a lengthy section on the Bill of Rights, then that needs to be fixed, pronto. And every single time a cop re-qualifies with his firearms, he should also have to take a quiz on the Bill of Rights. They swore to uphold it but what good does that do if they don't understand it, or worse they don't like it and so go looking for ways to circumvent it?

AngelDecoys
04-28-2008, 9:31 AM
As to changes in the law, several states including LA adopted emergency laws that are designed to keep this from happening in these types of disaster situations.

CA adopted a similar law last year protecting your right to keep your guns in a natural disaster or similar. I'll check the NRA-ILA site for the case.

Add to this, Bush signed a federal law in 2006 prohibiting federal agencies from confiscating firearms during an emergency.

BakerPD
03-15-2011, 11:08 PM
This is ridiculous :mad:

-taU9d26wT4

How am I only recently reading about this?

nick
03-15-2011, 11:13 PM
This is ridiculous :mad:

-taU9d26wT4

How am I only recently reading about this?

You weren't paying attention :p

tuolumnejim
03-15-2011, 11:19 PM
Whoa necro-thread. :43:

vantec08
03-16-2011, 6:37 AM
There are only two answers to gun confiscation of the sort that happened in NOLA:

1. Shoot the bastards when they come to take your guns. Not recommended because you'll generally end up dead too. Take this action only if you think the Constitution will not survive whatever strife is driving the gun confiscation, and at that attempt to link up with other defenders of the Constitution in order to form a more effective offense/defense.

2. Let them take your guns, collect as much information about the people doing the confiscation as is possible, and then sue them into oblivion after the fact. Once a few PDs have been bankrupted and a few cops have lost their homes and their careers, they won't be so quick to do it anymore.

To avoid all of this, we need better education for our professional police forces. Frankly, if the Police Academy final exam doesn't include a lengthy section on the Bill of Rights, then that needs to be fixed, pronto. And every single time a cop re-qualifies with his firearms, he should also have to take a quiz on the Bill of Rights. They swore to uphold it but what good does that do if they don't understand it, or worse they don't like it and so go looking for ways to circumvent it?


The CHP people go thru a serious hiring vetting process and and knew dam well what they were doing was illegal on its face. By its very nature, government will abuse - - its just a matter of when, where, what circumstances, and degree. N.O. screams for nothing less than immediate termination.

cmichini
03-16-2011, 8:03 AM
Were the LEO's ever punished?

:rofl2:

Now THAT's funny. You realize this is modern day America, right?
LEO's (or politicians or celebrities) are not bound by the same law as us unwashed peons.

GrayWolf09
03-16-2011, 8:29 AM
Shocking and outrageous!

mag360
03-16-2011, 8:33 AM
this wouldn't go well at a lot of our houses. The gf can shoot, and my brother lives here as well. That's 3 people with AR's that are rock solid shots. I'm guessing many of you are the same way.

ccandgc
03-16-2011, 9:09 AM
I thought the exact same thing....well put and the spelling....wow, is correct! Unlike the libtard who can't get the "their, there or they're" context right. That reply to that goofball's comment made me buy that book off of Amazon just a few minutes ago.

Thanks for the link to Amazon, I'm looking forward to reading it....



Thanks for the URL for this book on Amazon. Frankly, I was not aware of the book before just now. It looks like a book that I need to read. While at the Amazon listing for the book, I clicked on the reviews, to see what people had to say about this book.

There was one review, and a resulting reply to that review that I found most interesting. While lengthy, I think many Calgun folks will enjoy reading the following:

The Great New Orleans Gun Grab [Paperback]
Gordon Hutchinson (Author), Todd Masson (Author)
Amazon Website

The following is a posted on Amazon review of this book, by a James Mcloughlin from Texas:


"I get a kick out of reading one sided books every now and then, and have a special interest in reading books on the effects of Hurricane Katrina and New Orleans.

This book is important in understanding how many 2nd Admendment zelots can only see in terms of black and white, and the authors have chosen to address only those who rigidly hold to there opnion. As I read this further I kept expecting some historical aspect to be raised on past emegerency rule in riots or disasters, nor was what other rights or protections were lost as a result Hurricane Katrina discussed, and what of the Rit of Habeas Corpus, it too has been suspended in such times.

No one's right to own a gun was revoked, nor was anyone arrested for owning a gun, the question this book should have asked and debated is, do the authorities, including the police who must try to keep order in a crisis, be allowed a wide lattiude in keeping civil order in such a disaster."

shotcaller6
03-16-2011, 9:39 AM
This Blog about Katrina is not specificaly pertaining to the guns issue but is a very interesting and informative read about being ready.

http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/blogs/klessons/p/0001.html

Paul S
03-16-2011, 9:44 AM
Someone correct me if I am wrong...but the last I read though the court had ruled against the New Orleans Police department on the 'gun grab' issue that was about where the issue ended. The city government stonewalled complying with the court's directive to return firearms until it had it's city feet held to the fire so to speak. Then the return policy was to do so only with a proper receipt of original purchase. Consequently the number of firearms returned was much lower than the number destroyed or being held to rust into worthlessness. Since the court ruling had no real punishment attached for failure to comply the citizens ended up being the losers. It truly is a sad chapter of the violation of citizens' rights in the name of law and order.

Window_Seat
03-16-2011, 9:45 AM
Good luck knocking on my front door after a natural disaster/martial law etc. You will be taking bullets, not guns.AHMEN Brother.

:)

↑↑↑This reminds me of this discussion below ↓↓↓

...
That sort of thing should never have happened on American soil. It better never happen again.This has "stop, or I shall say 'stop' again!" written all over it...

It better never happen again or what?


If you can't come up with an ironclad, compelling answer to that question then it will happen again.
...

:laugh: :laugh:

In all seriousness, all the laws in the world could be passed, and everyone of us could say "they come for my guns, they'll be getting it, blah blah blah", but if it ever REALLY HAPPENS, are you really going to be giving them bullets? How many of those whose firearms were actually confiscated stated before in the past that they would be greeting those with confiscation on their minds with the business end of their guns, etc?

I always chuckle when someone says that, but I guarantee that you won't be getting the last shot if they come for yours, and THEY don't care how many constitutional provisions are violated when (NOT IF) it all goes down...

In re. to the above statement; we need a more ironclad solution to the problem. Registration and allowing "possession" to be public information is a big part of the problem, and...

If I hear someone say "they better not come for my guns, blah blah blah", I'll say "STOP SAYING THAT OR I'LL SAY A SWEAR WORD in the name of SWEARING!!" :laugh:

Erik.

OHW
03-16-2011, 10:07 AM
Armed troops will guard every FEMA aid center. You will get nothing if you are armed.

For the they can't have mine crowd, never open you home to them. Challenge the warrant through the closed door. If all they want is your guns, the warrant is invalid. Then if they dare enter by force, you have the right to defend yourself. Too bad they have special rights to arm themselves better than you in direct conflict with the implications of the 2nd.
Never ever invite them in. Prepare yourself for a long long barricade scenario. In the open your right to die is all that matters to a so called threatened officer. The law will never protect you there.

woodsman
03-16-2011, 10:42 AM
Good luck knocking on my front door after a natural disaster/martial law etc. You will be taking bullets, not guns.

AHMEN Brother.

:)

I know power gets abused but the reality that LE personnel would do this on such a wide scale is frightening. I've seen the katrina video dozens of times and it burns me more each time I view it.

Another reason to get with friends or a like minded group. Safety in numbers? Maybe, maybe not.

Not worth dying over having my guns confiscated but I don't want to die because I don't have one either. I know that all my guns will not be in one place if SHTF. Let them find the needle in the hay stack.

I honestly don't know what I would do in this situation. I hope and pray I never find myself in a situation like this to find out.

OHW
03-16-2011, 11:20 AM
The video is truth. Never ever let LE in your home, ever. In the open you are going down as a threat to the LE s safety only the law will protect them not your dead body. What of the citizens that were shot by LE sniper on the bridge? Did LE get jail time?

Wherryj
03-16-2011, 11:52 AM
Good luck knocking on my front door after a natural disaster/martial law etc. You will be taking bullets, not guns.

Unfortunately I suspect that you would be taking bullets as well-from the SWAT team that was called out to take out the "homicidal maniac shooting at officers".

That is a truly lose-lose situation. Officers lose, citizens lose.

Wherryj
03-16-2011, 11:56 AM
Yeah, and how likely is/was that!!!! :mad::confused:

How many receipts survived the floods is an even better question. My safe is fireproof, but not waterproof. Then there would be the pesky little chore of finding the safe-and possibly my house-after it floated away.

Sniper3142
03-16-2011, 12:57 PM
Unfortunately I suspect that you would be taking bullets as well-from the SWAT team that was called out to take out the "homicidal maniac shooting at officers".

That is a truly lose-lose situation. Officers lose, citizens lose.


I totally understand that.

But I Will Not go down Easy, and I Will Not go down Alone.

I'm single and all of my family are 3000 miles away. I didn't spend over a decade in the Corps defending our rights and the Constitution just to let someone violate the very principles this great country was founded on.

woodsman
03-16-2011, 1:04 PM
I totally understand that.

But I Will Not go down Easy, and I Will Not go down Alone.

I'm single and all of my family are 3000 miles away. I didn't spend over a decade in the Corps defending our rights and the Constitution just to let someone violate the very principles this great country was founded on.

I hear you clearly.

Thanks for your service.

BigDogatPlay
03-16-2011, 1:25 PM
The CHP people go thru a serious hiring vetting process and and knew dam well what they were doing was illegal on its face. By its very nature, government will abuse - - its just a matter of when, where, what circumstances, and degree. N.O. screams for nothing less than immediate termination.

At the risk of prolonging a seriously necro thread.... how did the CHP officers involved, or any other local, state or out of state LEO who participated know that it was "illegal on its face"? You assume a great deal of fact not in evidence.

At the time there was no statutory law on the book in NOLA or in Louisiana which forbid it. There are no criminal sanctions attached to the Bill of Rights. The mayor and police superintendent (wrongly according to a US District Court judge after the fact) used the emergency powers granted to them under the laws of the city and the state at the time.

Was it wrong... hell yes. Was it illegal on its face? No.

BigDogatPlay
03-16-2011, 1:28 PM
What of the citizens that were shot by LE sniper on the bridge? Did LE get jail time?

The process is still ongoing..... see here. (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2010/07/new-orleans-police-officers-indicted-in-post-katrina-shooting-case.html)

Justice doesn't always come fast, but it usually comes.

OHW
03-16-2011, 2:56 PM
That's the one BigDogAtPlay. To bad the article is dated July 2010. I fear justice will never be served .

vantec08
03-16-2011, 3:25 PM
At the risk of prolonging a seriously necro thread.... how did the CHP officers involved, or any other local, state or out of state LEO who participated know that it was "illegal on its face"? You assume a great deal of fact not in evidence.

At the time there was no statutory law on the book in NOLA or in Louisiana which forbid it. There are no criminal sanctions attached to the Bill of Rights. The mayor and police superintendent (wrongly according to a US District Court judge after the fact) used the emergency powers granted to them under the laws of the city and the state at the time.

Was it wrong... hell yes. Was it illegal on its face? No.


. .. . which makes my point precisely, our government at ALL levels has degenerated from "limited" to one in which bureaucrats can do as they please with a "sorry bout that" after-the-fact attitude. Illegal on its face?? YOU BET

blakdawg
03-16-2011, 4:01 PM
At the risk of prolonging a seriously necro thread.... how did the CHP officers involved, or any other local, state or out of state LEO who participated know that it was "illegal on its face"? You assume a great deal of fact not in evidence.

At the time there was no statutory law on the book in NOLA or in Louisiana which forbid it. There are no criminal sanctions attached to the Bill of Rights. The mayor and police superintendent (wrongly according to a US District Court judge after the fact) used the emergency powers granted to them under the laws of the city and the state at the time.

Was it wrong... hell yes. Was it illegal on its face? No.

I disagree.

To start out, let's remember that Katrina happened in August 2005 and Heller was decided in 2008. So Heller is not helpful when evaluating a person's behavior in 2005.

However, the 4th Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures, and more specifically requires that searches only occur after a warrant has been issued based upon probable cause that the search will produce evidence of a crime or fruits/proceeds of a crime. (there are some exceptions, but it's tough to apply them to a citywide search of all residences).

I don't know of a warrant being issued to search all of New Orleans for guns - and if it had been issued, I don't know how those guns could plausibly have been called evidence or the proceeds of criminal activity.

So I've got a big fourth amendment problem with what occurred.

Also, the 5th Amendment says that people cannot be deprived of their property without due process. Due process doesn't necessarily require that people have a hearing pre-seizure; or that they even get their property back, if they're compensated for the taking. So it might be possible to create a firearms confiscation procedure that complied with the 5th Amendment. (Not the 2nd, but this was pre-Heller and pre-McDonald.)

The descriptions I've read of the seizure process suggest that the guns seized were not taken, cataloged, or stored in a fashion that would make it possible or easy to, after the fact, determine from whom guns were taken, which guns were taken, and their condition at the time of seizure. That information is critical to providing those people with compensation for the property that was taken from them, and the necessity of that is obvious. It should have been clear to the seizing officers that, if they weren't issuing receipts and storing the guns carefully, that it was very likely that they were effectively depriving the property owners of their 5th Amendment rights to due process related to the public taking of private property.

There is nothing a state legislature can write that cancels the 4th and 5th Amendments as applied to the states via the 14th Amendment.

So, no, I don't think that the officers' behavior was even plausibly legal per the 4th and 5th Amendments. I suspect that the officers believed what they were doing was (in many cases at least) the right thing to do, and was probably what they were ordered/instructed to do - but that does not make it legal.

bulgron
03-16-2011, 4:08 PM
I disagree.

To start out, let's remember that Katrina happened in August 2005 and Heller was decided in 2008. So Heller is not helpful when evaluating a person's behavior in 2005.

Let's also remember that while Heller was still years away when Katrina hit, the RKBA protections in the Louisiana State Constitution were very much in force and well understood to protect the citizen's right to arms.


The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person.

N6ATF
03-16-2011, 5:21 PM
There are no criminal sanctions attached to the Bill of Rights.

18 USC 241 and 242. Unless you believe, as many in our government do, that having a gun means you have zero other incorporated civil rights.

TurboChrisB
03-16-2011, 5:41 PM
Well written but IMO off on one count. It DID happen in N.O. and No pd's went bankrupt and NO cops lost their homes and careers because they violated rights by illegally seizing weapons or ordering the seizing of. It didn't happen then and personally I don't believe if it happened again that there would be major consequences of the kind you're referring too. There SHOULD be....but I wouldn't hold my breath.


There are only two answers to gun confiscation of the sort that happened in NOLA:

1. Shoot the bastards when they come to take your guns. Not recommended because you'll generally end up dead too. Take this action only if you think the Constitution will not survive whatever strife is driving the gun confiscation, and at that attempt to link up with other defenders of the Constitution in order to form a more effective offense/defense.

2. Let them take your guns, collect as much information about the people doing the confiscation as is possible, and then sue them into oblivion after the fact. Once a few PDs have been bankrupted and a few cops have lost their homes and their careers, they won't be so quick to do it anymore.

To avoid all of this, we need better education for our professional police forces. Frankly, if the Police Academy final exam doesn't include a lengthy section on the Bill of Rights, then that needs to be fixed, pronto. And every single time a cop re-qualifies with his firearms, he should also have to take a quiz on the Bill of Rights. They swore to uphold it but what good does that do if they don't understand it, or worse they don't like it and so go looking for ways to circumvent it?

Bruce
03-16-2011, 5:57 PM
Earlier in this thread, I made reference to the CHP's involvement in the New Orleans gun confiscations. Apparently it is difficult for some newer members to believe the CHP could be involved in such doings even with video evidence provided. So for those people:



http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=23985&highlight=CHP

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=104011#post104011

RGERBER
03-16-2011, 6:07 PM
I would like to add my two cents here.
I watch and read about this several years ago, the chief of police and or the mayor gave the order to confiscate, it is on tube somewhere I watch and heard it.
I feel that this is totally wrong and against the Constitution, when people need their weapons for protection most the cops take them away.
I personally made two decisions that day and feel this is what we all must do.
# 1 – I have decided that when and if the cops come in the same way thy came in the videos I watch (I would not shoot them) – I am not willing to shoot some child’s father and some women’s husband and become a felon and go to jail for doing in a bad circumstance what he was ordered to do. I would simply let them take me to jail or if my family needed me give them a gun or two.
# 2 hides some weapons just in case. – Done
I feel this button issue needs to be decided before it happens – like any other self-defense or self-preservation decision.

77bawls
03-16-2011, 9:02 PM
Were the LEO's ever punished?

:rofl2:

Now THAT's funny. You realize this is modern day America, right?
LEO's (or politicians or celebrities) are not bound by the same law as us unwashed peons.

WrEITFuQExY

BakerPD
03-16-2011, 11:58 PM
Wow CHP was there? Just wow

BakerPD
03-17-2011, 12:03 AM
Bruce I am getting an error when clicking on your links

Bruce
03-17-2011, 3:58 AM
Bruce I am getting an error when clicking on your links

Edited the link page. If they disappear again, search "CHP" and go to the second to last page.

puppy8a9
03-17-2011, 5:49 PM
There was a law enacted to protect during a state of emergency our state is currently trying to remove these protections. This may happen if the open carry bill goes through and so will the ability to loan out a gun to friends. Hidden items in every negative gun bill, we do not trade one right for another and should fight against all negative gun legislation.

77bawls
03-17-2011, 7:42 PM
Some news released today.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/03/17/louisiana.police.probe/index.html

Anchors
03-17-2011, 8:32 PM
I'm glad they passed federal and state laws condemning those confiscations.
I would have given them my mosin and then kept the rest haha.

MRpink
03-17-2011, 9:23 PM
threads like these get my blood boiling...

puppy8a9
03-17-2011, 10:15 PM
I'm glad they passed federal and state laws condemning those confiscations.
I would have given them my mosin and then kept the rest haha.

The fact still remains if they pass the open carry ban, the hidden item undoes this protection for those in CA. Another reason to fight AB 144.

I cannot stress enough that banning open carry will affect other rights.

tanda10506
03-18-2011, 12:31 PM
While I do have respect for local police officers I have none for CHP and for the "management" in the LE system. I read earlier that California has made laws to prevent this from happening, and that's a shock. The governments mentality is this: "You have rights under the constitution, unless we decide that at the time you don't". In a disaster situation like that all my guns would be completely hidden except for the AR 15 that would be on me at all times. I would not let anybody in my house. If the confinscators forcibly entry but all my guns are hidden (with the exception of maybe 1 or 2) then I wouldn't engage the confinscators but if it was a spur of the moment thing and everything I've worked hard for was going to be stolen from me (make no mistake that is theft) then I'd go down fighting. The police I know would not have participated in this, in fact my FFL is a LEO, but remember, the majority of the CHP and the "supervisors" at the top of the LE system don't give a damn about you or your rights.

luckystrike
03-18-2011, 3:38 PM
what I would like to know is if they came around with 4473s or something, if not then its the honor system, and you defiantly should not honor a system that is taking your guns when you need them most.

blakdawg
03-18-2011, 4:38 PM
what I would like to know is if they came around with 4473s or something, if not then its the honor system, and you defiantly should not honor a system that is taking your guns when you need them most.

My impression is that they were just searching for guns - assuming that most people who had guns would have them out & accessible, which probably isn't a bad assumption, given that most of the ground was covered (or had been, or would be soon) with several feet of mud & contaminated water - even people with gun safes in basements or on ground floors probably emptied them, either to preserve the guns or to have the guns ready for use.

HBrebel
03-18-2011, 4:38 PM
Good luck knocking on my front door after a natural disaster/martial law etc. You will be taking bullets, not guns.

Exactly!!! I will be dolling out all you can eat lead. combo A you can choose between 7.62x39 HP or FMJ combo B you can choose 12 gauge slugs or 00 buck. or you can opt for the door breach special and get the mystery surprise. Oh and unlimited .22 long rifle for dessert as well.

blakdawg
03-18-2011, 7:40 PM
Exactly!!! I will be dolling out all you can eat lead. combo A you can choose between 7.62x39 HP or FMJ combo B you can choose 12 gauge slugs or 00 buck. or you can opt for the door breach special and get the mystery surprise. Oh and unlimited .22 long rifle for dessert as well.

I see where you're coming from, but that road leads to your death pretty quickly, too.

If you stay in a well-barricaded house and can convince the bad guys outside (no matter what uniform they wear or who they're loyal to) to move along to an easier target, you'll probably get to see another sunrise. Any intermediate step that involves other people's bodies piling up on your porch won't end nicely for the people inside your house.

Cali-Shooter
03-18-2011, 9:30 PM
Does anyone know what happened to the victims of gun confiscation during the Katrina clusterfrack? Were the LEOs ever punished? Did the people get their firearms back? Did anyone ever sue over the issue?

This has been bugging the hell out of me lately, and if anyone has any updated info, it would be greatly appreciated.

For anyone in the dark on what this is all about (I doubt there will be), the original story is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4

Keep track of all your gun's serial numbers. Keep as much paperwork for whatever guns you have as possible stored away somewhere. Keep pictures of all your guns stored away (digital at least on computers and USB/hard drives).

This is all just backup in case if there's a gun confiscation, and in the event some of your guns end up being illicitly taken, you will have records to pursue the matter in court, when martial law settles down.

vantec08
03-19-2011, 5:36 AM
While I do have respect for local police officers I have none for CHP and for the "management" in the LE system. I read earlier that California has made laws to prevent this from happening, and that's a shock. The governments mentality is this: "You have rights under the constitution, unless we decide that at the time you don't". In a disaster situation like that all my guns would be completely hidden except for the AR 15 that would be on me at all times. I would not let anybody in my house. If the confinscators forcibly entry but all my guns are hidden (with the exception of maybe 1 or 2) then I wouldn't engage the confinscators but if it was a spur of the moment thing and everything I've worked hard for was going to be stolen from me (make no mistake that is theft) then I'd go down fighting. The police I know would not have participated in this, in fact my FFL is a LEO, but remember, the majority of the CHP and the "supervisors" at the top of the LE system don't give a damn about you or your rights.


True. And their attitude is "we will fudge and encroach on your rights until there is a specific law that specifically holds us accountable if we dont. We cant help ourselves - - Authority is our Name, the Supreme Power of the State is our game."
seig heil.

negolien
03-19-2011, 5:54 AM
"Good luck knocking on my front door after a natural disaster/martial law etc. You will be taking bullets, not guns."




Yup no doubt why people think alot of calgunners are tards...:TFH:

sdjetpilot
03-19-2011, 6:00 AM
i wonder if they would have searched anyway if they said they didnt have any guns (in the case of the home search). knowing this now i will probably say i dont have any guns if my home was searched.

woodsman
03-19-2011, 7:45 AM
"Good luck knocking on my front door after a natural disaster/martial law etc. You will be taking bullets, not guns."




Yup no doubt why people think alot of calgunners are tards...:TFH:

I don't know what I will do.

I do know that history is full of people that probably wish they had a gun to defend themselves. If they had a gun, wish they pulled the trigger or did something to defend themselves instead of complying to the badged or uniformed thugs at their doors..

Sam1
03-19-2011, 12:10 PM
no need to get into a shoot out, just say you have no guns if they come knocking :whistling:

Swiss
03-19-2011, 1:33 PM
Anyone have a link or more info for the CA law referenced below? All I could find was reference to the Fed law and comments that during a disaster most agencies are operating under Fed direction and are therefore required to comply.

Many of the guns were never returned as owners could not prove ownership, or were not legally allowed to own guns. Many guns did get back the owners.

As to changes in the law, several states including LA adopted emergency laws that are designed to keep this from happening in these types of disaster situations.

Also, the PD department got sued for this, as well as the city and state. Last I heard, Fed appeals were being heard. I forgot if they went anywhere.

CA adopted a similar law last year protecting your right to keep your guns in a natural disaster or similar. I'll check the NRA-ILA site for the case.

TheKlawMan
03-19-2011, 3:21 PM
Anyone have a link or more info for the CA law referenced below? All I could find was reference to the Fed law and comments that during a disaster most agencies are operating under Fed direction and are therefore required to comply.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_1601-1650/ab_1645_bill_20070223_introduced.html

Swiss
03-19-2011, 4:17 PM
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_1601-1650/ab_1645_bill_20070223_introduced.html

Thanks! Interesting that it does not stipulate that *ammunition* must be returned as well as a firearm. Somebody ought to fix that.

8571.5. Nothing in this article shall authorize the seizure or
confiscation of any firearm or ammunition from any individual who is
lawfully carrying or possessing the firearm or ammunition, or
authorize any order to that effect, provided however, that a peace
officer who is acting in his or her official capacity may disarm an
individual if the officer reasonably believes it is immediately
necessary for the protection of the officer or another individual.
The officer shall return the firearm to the individual before
discharging the individual, unless the officer arrests that
individual or seizes the firearm as evidence pursuant to an
investigation for the commission of a crime.

BigDogatPlay
03-19-2011, 4:43 PM
Unless you believe, as many in our government do, that having a gun means you have zero other incorporated civil rights.

I expected to be flamed for posting what I did. And I was. However this is, as far as I am concerned, an outright insult given how I feel and how my posts generally are crafted.

18 USC 241 and 242.... neither of those appear in the first ten amendments, last time I checked, which was the exact meaning of what I posted earlier. They are statutory law enacted by the Congress to help defend the rights in the Constitution. 18 USC 241 covers a conspiracy to deprive one of civil rights and 18 USC 242 covers actual deprivation of rights under color of law or authority. While it can be argued that the specific actions of Mayor Nagin, Superintendent Compass and all the LEO's that they directed did ultimately deprive people of their rights, just what were their Second Amendment rights at the time?

Katrina was in 2005,Heller and McDonald were ?

Again... while the actions of the City of New Orleans and of some LEO's were reprehensible, they were not against what was the controlling law at the time. One would need to delve into the emergency powers statutes that were in force at the time and under which those actions were authorized by the mayor and his police superintendent. Granted that a federal court found later that those actions were in fact out of bounds, but in the moment of crisis that mattered little.

While I recognize that you will disagree, that's your right to do so.

N6ATF
03-19-2011, 5:54 PM
Hint: the 2A wasn't the only constitutionally enumerated civil right violated.

Excelsior
03-19-2011, 7:00 PM
We had a thread on this before. My take:

Don't let LEOs into your house without a warrant. Duh.
However, don't fight back against them. That's a fight that can't be won.
Therefore, your disaster kit should include:
A throw-away gun, plus an extra gun or two hidden A rugged tapeless video camera

Repeat over and over, "I do not consent, you are committing a robbery, I am placing you under citizens arrest (but don't actually physically do it), I demand a receipt, what is your name and badge number, under which authority do you claim to be operating", while video taping.
Are there documented examples where LEOs tried to steal guns by pushing their way inside of homes and were later hammered for it?

Excelsior
03-19-2011, 7:02 PM
no need to get into a shoot out, just say you have no guns if they come knocking :whistling:
That's what I would do!

oni.dori
03-19-2011, 11:34 PM
Add to this, Bush signed a federal law in 2006 prohibiting federal agencies from confiscating firearms during an emergency.

IIRC, I do believe the law encompanses any federal OR state funded law enforcement agency or military organization.

BakerPD
03-20-2011, 12:55 AM
Just became an NRA member mostly because of this incident

Mesa Tactical
03-20-2011, 8:57 AM
Katrina was in 2005,Heller and McDonald were ?

Again... while the actions of the City of New Orleans and of some LEO's were reprehensible, they were not against what was the controlling law at the time.

As others have already pointed out, these confiscations had nothing to do with the Second Amendment, they were clear and indefensible violations of the FOURTH Amendment, in my personal opinion the most important civil right of them all.

This is a civil right that has been part of English Common Law since the Magna Carta, and yet SCOTUS, the President, the Congress and most Americans (including gun lovers) are only too happy to toss it into the trash heap of liberal governance. Cf, for one example, the Telecoms Act of 2008.

There was once an extremely wise and capable man called Lord Chatham (aka William Pitt the Elder) who said this about the important civil right embodied in the Fourth Amendment:

The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail -- its roof may shake -- the wind may blow through it -- the storm may enter -- the rain may enter -- but the King of England cannot enter! -- all his forces dare not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement!

BTW, if Chatham had been Prime Minister following the enactment of the Stamp Act, there would likely have never been an American Revolution.

scarville
03-20-2011, 8:58 AM
no need to get into a shoot out, just say you have no guns if they come knocking :whistling:
Doesn't California have a registry of handguns and defacto registration of long gun? If so that information would certainly be available to the cops coming to your door. Also if the police are under federal control (FEMA?) at the time does that then make it a crime to lie to them?

We all know no Calgunner would ever knowingly break a law lest the authorities take away his guns.

RGERBER
03-20-2011, 9:22 AM
Actually, lying to the Police can be illegal depending on the circumstances. If an officer is investigating a crime and asks you a question in the course of his investigation, then you do have the right to state that you want to speak to a lawyer.

But if you outright lie in an attempt to hinder or prevent the investigation, you may be arrested for obstruction of justice.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_lying_to_police_illegal#ixzz1HA4dA1a4

dantodd
03-20-2011, 9:31 AM
Doesn't California have a registry of handguns and defacto registration of long gun? If so that information would certainly be available to the cops coming to your door. Also if the police are under federal control (FEMA?) at the time does that then make it a crime to lie to them?

We all know no Calgunner would ever knowingly break a law lest the authorities take away his guns.

No, we don't have de facto long gun registration. While dealers are required to retain records they are not centralized in any way.

I think lots of calgunners would happily participate on acts of civil disobedience.

iskra31
03-20-2011, 1:53 PM
"For purposes of this subdivision, “deadly
weapon” is defined to include any instrument or weapon of the
kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub,
sandbag, metal knuckles, any dirk, dagger, pistol, revolver, or any
other firearm, any knife having a blade longer than five inches,
any razor with an unguarded blade and any metal pipe or bar used
or intended to be used as a club."

In AB 144, whats a slungshot? :rolleyes:
Can i still carry a SLINGSHOT as a deadly weapon? lol

Uxi
03-20-2011, 3:32 PM
Doesn't surprise me at all that CHP was involved. Not one bit. I hate hate HATE the CHP. I want it disabanded and would prefer it's funding go to local jurisdictions to patrol their own stretches of the freeways. Then set up a State Police force to do things at the capital and what not.

richzmn
03-20-2011, 6:50 PM
Good luck knocking on my front door after a natural disaster/martial law etc. You will be taking bullets, not guns.

Sorry to hear that, we'll miss you.

Smokeybehr
03-20-2011, 6:55 PM
Then set up a State Police force to do things at the capital and what not.

That's how it used to be. The State Police were in charge of security for all the State buildings.

It should be done the way other states do it, where the Highway Patrol only does commercial vehicle enforcement, unless you're really doing something stupid on the road.

todd2968
03-20-2011, 8:43 PM
I do want to point out that Mississippi was hit just as hard and there were people openly carrying guns all over the place, without problems. In Mississippi your car is an extension of your home and is legal to have a gun unlocked loaded, concealed or not at anytime.