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View Full Version : Closed CCW records. Should be law in all states


bg
04-25-2008, 2:25 PM
No one should know who has a CCW permit save for those
who issue them. No media should be allowed to post these
records to the public . >
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-04-24-gunpermitrecords_N.htm
South Carolina last week became the latest in a growing number of states to make the names of people who have a license to carry a concealed weapon a state secret.

Five other states might not be far behind in a battle that pits a public policy of open government against the right of people to keep their gun ownership records private.

Bills that would make concealed gun permit records confidential have been introduced in eight other states this year — Alabama, Louisiana, Missouri, New York, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Virginia and West Virginia — according to Janna Goodwin of the National Conference of State Legislatures.
Letting the public know who has permits holds open the
door for so many abuses including possible robbery.

bulgron
04-25-2008, 2:33 PM
Letting the public know who has permits holds open the
door for so many abuses including possible robbery.

I agree with you if the state is shall-issue.

But states such as California which are discretionary issue, these records need to remain public so that we can keep an eye on the corrupt actions of some issuing agencies.

mymonkeyman
04-25-2008, 2:34 PM
I really wonder how those newspaper reporters who list CCW holders in the newspaper would feel about listing people who had abortions in the newspaper?

Hillbilly Rebel
04-25-2008, 2:39 PM
I really wonder how those newspaper reporters who list CCW holders in the newspaper would feel about listing people who had abortions in the newspaper?

But abortion isn't illegal. Oh wait, neither is gun ownership or having a CCW. Carry on. :cool2:

Glock22Fan
04-25-2008, 2:50 PM
I agree with you if the state is shall-issue.

But states such as California which are discretionary issue, these records need to remain public so that we can keep an eye on the corrupt actions of some issuing agencies.


Absolutely!

TBJ could not operate at all if we couldn't get at these records. We must know who these people are and what their Good Cause is so we can identify the CLEO's who only issue to favorites. There is scope in the system for editing out sensitive Good Cause material, but the court has the right to oversee this.

bg
04-25-2008, 3:10 PM
I agree with you if the state is shall-issue.

But states such as California which are discretionary issue, these records need to remain public so that we can keep an eye on the corrupt actions of some issuing agencies.
You're absolutely right.

CCWFacts
04-25-2008, 3:22 PM
Comparison with other things like abortion etc is absurd.

The reason why gun permit records have traditionally been open records in most states is because they have been may-issue systems, prone to abuse. It's exactly the same reason that government contracting records are open, building permits are open, etc. These things are all prone to abuse if they are kept private.

When the system goes shall-issue, the likelihood of abuse goes away, and then the records should be private, just like drivers license records, for example. There's effectively no abuse in the driver licensing system because it's shall-issue, so the records should be private.

Our system in California is may-issue and widely abused by issuing authorities. It must remain public records until the day it goes shall-issue.

mymonkeyman
04-25-2008, 3:46 PM
Comparison with other things like abortion etc is absurd.

The reason why gun permit records have traditionally been open records in most states is because they have been may-issue systems, prone to abuse. It's exactly the same reason that government contracting records are open, building permits are open, etc. These things are all prone to abuse if they are kept private.

When the system goes shall-issue, the likelihood of abuse goes away, and then the records should be private, just like drivers license records, for example. There's effectively no abuse in the driver licensing system because it's shall-issue, so the records should be private.

Our system in California is may-issue and widely abused by issuing authorities. It must remain public records until the day it goes shall-issue.

The reason CCW records are being closed in some states is largely because of the publication of them in newspapers, or worries about them getting misused by criminals, not worries about getting them for use in lawsuits. You can get CCW records in lawsuits even if they aren't public records, it's called discovery or a subpoena (admittedly they will fight it, etc. but it is not that difficult).

I wasn't attacking people who want to get to records in may issue states, my comparison to abortion was attacking the newspapers who were inspiring the statutes by pointing out that the stand they are taking (which is essentially like a public disclosure / public right to know) is fallacious and simply a mask for anti-gun animus.

Decoligny
04-25-2008, 5:12 PM
The reason CCW records are being closed in some states is largely because of the publication of them in newspapers, or worries about them getting misused by criminals, not worries about getting them for use in lawsuits. You can get CCW records in lawsuits even if they aren't public records, it's called discovery or a subpoena (admittedly they will fight it, etc. but it is not that difficult).
I wasn't attacking people who want to get to records in may issue states, my comparison to abortion was attacking the newspapers who were inspiring the statutes by pointing out that the stand they are taking (which is essentially like a public disclosure / public right to know) is fallacious and simply a mask for anti-gun animus.

If you have been following any of Team Billy Jack's activity, they rely on access to the records in order to determine whether or not a lawsuit is required. If the only people who get Licenses to Carry Concealed are the one who have donated to the Sheriff's re-election campaign, or are friends of the Sheriff, or if some people are getting licenses with weak "Good Cause" and others with strong "Good Cause" are being denied, then legal action is required to remedy the situation. This is not something where a lawsuit can be filed on an assumption and then submit a request the information to substantiate the assumption.

mymonkeyman
04-25-2008, 8:01 PM
This is not something where a lawsuit can be filed on an assumption and then submit a request the information to substantiate the assumption.

You've just described most litigation.

Glock22Fan
04-25-2008, 9:11 PM
You've just described most litigation.

This is what Gary Gorski tried to do in Sacramento. Didn't work for him. I think Billy Jack's way is better.