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View Full Version : San Jose: Trainng on how to survive a shooting.


aileron
04-22-2008, 10:21 AM
Wow... Just wow. Where do the find these purported experts in hiding and playing dead? Thank god they made the effort to suggest attacking might be an option, but I wonder how they suggest doing this?


http://www.kcbs.com/pages/2041544.php?


SJSU To Train Students to Survive a School Shooting

SAN JOSE, Calif. (KCBS) -- Officials at San Jose State plan to offer self-defense classes so that students and professors will be prepared in the event that a gunman opens fire on campus.

College officials simulated just such a situation on campus last week. Junior Hillary Tiopa responded like it was the real thing.

”Once I heard the gunshot I was speeding out of the building. I just wanted to get away from him. I wanted to get down the stairs and out of the building,” said Tiopa.

University officials say Tiopa did the right thing, using one of four techniques officials plan to teach in the course.

”Lockdown, hide if it’s possible, run if you have to, or play dead. Those are generally the four options,” said San Jose State Spokeswoman Pat Lopes Harris.

The fifth option is to attack the attacker. There will be more details on that option in the self-defense course, which will be offered in the fall.

jimbo1747
04-22-2008, 11:17 AM
Play dead?! Geez, we're talking about gunman here not a fricking grizzly bear!! These "experts" are going to get a lot of SJSU students hurt or killed if a real shooting situation happens there.

I'd like to hear what the options are for attacking the attacker? Throw your biology book at him? Ask him if the reason he's doing this is because his mama didn't love him as a child?! :confused:

maxicon
04-22-2008, 11:25 AM
If somebody's coming at you and going to shoot you, heck, yeah, you throw your biology book at them. If you can get a backpack, chair, or desk going their way, that'll help too. If you have time, pull out your pen and get ready to stab them.

Anything that distracts them and gives you and others time to grapple with them is much more likely to save your life than running or hiding.

You can't say what to do without being there, and you may die trying, but failing to resist is definitely what not an option.

CaliforniaCarry
04-22-2008, 12:44 PM
If enough people threw books at him that could actually work. It'd be like an Old Testament stoning...

But seriously, in a situation like that it's all about closing the distance. If you can get close enough to grapple you have a much better chance, since you've taken away the largest advantage his firearm has over your arms, legs, or whatever else you happen to have handy to fight with.

artherd
04-22-2008, 12:49 PM
"play dead". I love it.

yellowfin
04-22-2008, 1:28 PM
Support your local SCCC to end this nonsense.

Otherguy Overby
04-22-2008, 2:08 PM
I'd like to hear what the options are for attacking the attacker? Throw your biology book at him?

Back in the day, as I recall, physics books were the thickest.

IOW, a physics book would provide the most book for your bang... :)

wilit
04-22-2008, 5:11 PM
In case of crazed madman on a shooting rampage, remember to assume the victim position.

http://officespam.chattablogs.com/archives/roll.gif

DedEye
04-22-2008, 9:26 PM
In case of crazed madman on a shooting rampage, remember to assume the victim position.

http://officespam.chattablogs.com/archives/roll.gif

Do a barrel roll! ;) :p

At least they acknowledge that attacking the attacker is an "option" :rolleyes:.

ldivinag
04-22-2008, 9:55 PM
guys,

i work at cal state hayward. i am also a BSA (a building safety assistant) where we are trained on CPR, fire supression, etc.

so we got a notice about this a few weeks. it was called HOW TO DEAL WITH AN ACTIVE SHOOTER ON CAMPUS.

i laughed.

i joked with my response:

1. how much range time do we get?

2. is ammo provided?

3. can we bring our own firearm...


i never to this bull**** training. i feel it gives false hope to people.

well, they extended the training to everyone on campus.

so a bunch of people from my work went i got the handout.

i'll list the really funny things tomorrow when i get back to my office.

it's laughable but so sad... i mean really sad...

bigdave1121
04-22-2008, 10:58 PM
I'm ashamed to say I go to San Jose State :(

Sutcliffe
04-23-2008, 4:57 AM
It's a small university nearby. It was put on by 'Code Red Training'.
A 45 minute presentation that failed to impress. The Chief of security(ex police chief) said we ought to try and overpower the shooter "Because you will outnumber him thirty to one!"
Part of the speaker(woman named Carla Holzclaw) advocated using a fire extinguisher to blind him if you were cornered in a room you couldn't escape from.

The whole thing was a freaking joke. I contacted Oleg Volk to see if he could incorperate any of this garbage into one of his posters.

aileron
04-23-2008, 5:33 AM
So it didn't dawn on any of these folks that old adages are not just for laughs.

Because the one I keep thinking of when I see this is...

"Don't bring a knife to a gun fight."

But its okay to throw a book at them, or try and blind them with a fire extinguisher. If you cannot shoot back, your most likely going to be his next victim for being stupid enough to charge him.

So if one CCW holder just shoots him, its over, maybe he misses on his first shot, and maybe he hits an innocent by stander while dispatching BG. Unlikely but probable; which is bad and evil according to these, folks. But hey, bum rush him, he'll get a few of you; but hey that is a morally superior idea.

These people have lost their minds. :( Through prejudice they refuse to acknowledge the obvious.

johnny_22
04-23-2008, 8:10 AM
Author: LUKE GIANNI/Democrat staff Writer
Article ID: 6130754
Date: June 13, 2007
Publication: Daily Democrat, The (Woodland, CA)
" If someone comes to your college campus with a gun and the intention of shooting you, run. That was the simple advice tendered by UC Davis police during a 90-minute presentation on campus Monday designed to inform school civilians on how to improve their odds of surviving a campus-wide shooting spree.

The presentation, a joint effort between the campus police and the school's psychological services department, outlined protective measures students and faculty should adopt when ..."

There was a video report as well, with the police demonstrating takeaways! This was right after I had taken a class at Reeds on the same subject. Why did our schools get so wimpy in less than a year?

AngelDecoys
04-23-2008, 8:18 AM
One more reason to send your kids to school in Utah where students can apparently carry concealed.

CowboyShooter
04-23-2008, 8:40 AM
Author: LUKE GIANNI/Democrat staff Writer
Article ID: 6130754
Date: June 13, 2007
Publication: Daily Democrat, The (Woodland, CA)
" If someone comes to your college campus with a gun and the intention of shooting you, run.

Let's do the math...

running person... 20 fps (ok, maybe 25 fps w/ adrenaline boost)
handgun bullet...900 fps

hmmmmmmmmm.... better have a helluva head start. :eek:

yellowfin
04-23-2008, 10:02 AM
If you know anyone in school get them to join SCCC.

ldivinag
04-23-2008, 10:25 AM
okay... here's the crap they handed out for our training:

document titled "ACTIVE SHOOTER RESPONSE: A STRATEGY FOR SURVIVAL



What is an "Active Shooter?"
An active shooter is a person who is actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a populated area.



no... really?


What should I do?
If an active shooter enters your offie or classroom: If possible, escape or hide. Dial 911 (or our campus emergency #); if you cant speak, leave the line open so the dispatcher can listen to what's happening. If there's no opportunity to escape or hide, consider whether to try negotiatingwith or overtaking the shooter. Consider overtaking the shooter only after all other options have been exhausted. Do not touch anything that was in the vicinity of the shooter.


sigh...


also, included was the transcript of the video shown.

again, one small blurb is that they also say in the video to try to group overtake the shooter.

they mentioned Flight 93 and how the people on the plane knew that the hijackers were meaning to kill as much people, they decided to stop the threat...


double sigh...

reading this document just made me sick...

aileron
04-23-2008, 11:40 AM
If you know anyone in school get them to join SCCC.

yellowfin2, to make life easier on the curios; give a link when you post. ;)


http://concealedcampus.org/

jimbo1747
04-23-2008, 12:09 PM
Thanks for sharing that document ldivinag. Reading that made me sick to. Basically it looks like they're just telling everyone to accept the fact that they're probably going to die and to make peace with their maker?! :(

Librarian
04-23-2008, 4:28 PM
Here's the OCR version of a flyer issued by a local CSU.

... a few minor edits to protect whomever …

Active Shooter Response: A Strategy for Survival

What is an "Active Shooter"?
An active shooter is a person who is actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people n a populated area.

What should I do?
How you respond to an active shooter will be dictated by the specific circumstances of the incident and your surroundings (bearing in mind there could be more than one shooter involved). Try to remain calm and use these guidelines to help plan a strategy for survival:

./ If an active shooter is outside your building: If safe to do so, exit the building or go to a room that can be locked. Close and lock all the windows and doors, turn off all the lights, get everyone down on the floor and make sure no-one is visible from outside the room. Spread out, and do not huddle together for protection. One person should call 911 (from a *** phone) or (999) 999-9999 (from a cell phone), tell the dispatcher what is happening, and inform him/her of your location. Provide as many details as possible and don't hang up, unless instructed to do so. Be as quiet as possible and listen. Unfamiliar voices may be a shooter attempting to lure victims from their safe space. Do not respond to any voice commands until you can verify that they are being issued by a police officer.

./ If an active shooter is in your building: If safe to do so, exit the building or go to a room that can be locked. If you can not safely relocate, use furniture or equipment to barricade entrances. Have one person call 911 (from a *** phone) or (999) 999-9999 (from a cell phone). Then, follow the above instructions.

./ If an active shooter enters your office or classroom: If possible, escape or hide. Dial 911 or (999) 999-9999; if you can't speak, leave the line open so the dispatcher can listen to what's happening. If there is no opportunity to escape "or hide, consider whether to try negotiating with or overtaking the shooter. Consider overtaking the shooter only after all other options have been exhausted. Do not touch anything that was in the vicinity of the shooter.

If you decide to flee... keep these instructions in mind: Have an escape route or plan in mind. Do not carry anything while fleeing; move quickly, in a zig-zag motion. Keep your hands visible, and follow the instructions of responding officers.

Sigh.

LECTRIKHED
04-23-2008, 6:18 PM
They did a similar type workshop at UCD last year. It had the same techniques. It recommended that only as an extreme last result should you think of attacking the attacker. It recommended scratching at their eyes. It seems to me that the a crazed shooter on a rampage would be the exact definition of last resort.

The VT guy shot through the doors to kill those people holding it shut.

As someone who has actual training in disarming armed subjects, this advice is awful. If you are at a close enough distance, you have the advantage over someone with a guns, even better if it is a long gun.

If 15 students rushed the shooter executing them, they could easily over power him. Sadly many of the VT students were executed in a line. Had they been raised to fight back, they may have overpowered the shooter and saved their lives.

It's better to fight back than walk like sheep to slaughter. Even if you're going to die, it's better to fight than let them execute you. Nothing to lose.

LECTRIKHED
04-23-2008, 6:38 PM
The universities could do much much more to protect their students and faculty. When I was going to UCD, I was pretty freaked out after Virginia Tech. I looked around and thought heavily about what could be done to make the campus safer. I also changed my habits and stopped studying on campus. Here is what can be done.

1. Better police: The VT police waited outside after taking a while to get there. They did not engage the suspect.

2. Close Campus: Shut down the campus when there are threats. UCD neglected to shut down the campus after an armed individual was killed by police on campus. VT left the campus open after the first murders. Shutting down the campus when there are threats would be the best step to combat these shooters.

3. Classroom windows: Many windows are blocked by metal shades. Most are double pane and cannot be opened. By putting emergency releases on windows and taking off the coverings, students could escape.

4. Electronic door locks: By installing electronic door locks on all the classrooms they could be locked in an emergency. Hotels do it so can colleges.

5. Cellphone text alerts & coverage: By sending out text messages to students, they could avoid coming to campus, and respond if there is a shooting. Many buildings don't have cell coverage. By improving coverage in these buildings students could call 911 and receive warnings.

6. Phone & Internet alerts: By calling all the classrooms and blocking all internet access with a message of the shooter, students would be warned. Many classrooms have wireless internet that the students use during class. If details were being streamed there, and via phone it would help.

7. Armed Security: By arming the campus security they could assist the police.

8. Take action against likely shooters: All of the shooters had given warning signs. The Colombine guys made a movie showing the massacreing students before and showed it to their class. The VT guy had been arrested for stalking and had written stories and threatened his English class. This was so bad that the entire class refused to return to class if he was there. The religious fanatics (Jihadists) who say the are going to blow up Americans on campus should similarly be kicked out of the school. Listening to students when they say they are going to kill others would help solve the problem.

9. Armed students and faculty By letting students who can legally own a gun, bring that with them, they could stop a campus shooting. Most people think this would lead to chaos and more shootings. It doesn't. The Jerusalem Yeshiva (religious college) shooting a month ago was stopped by an armed student. He was an IDF member with his M16 rifle.


By taking any combination of these measures, school shootings could be halted. It's not hard to identify these shooters, they have all said they were going to kill their classmates beforehand. The current situation on campuses make them extremely dangerous and vulnerable to attack. I was concerned about school shooters and bombing from radical student groups to the point that changed my habits after VT. I spent as little time on campus as possible afterwards.

yellowfin
04-23-2008, 6:47 PM
Gotta get open or concealed carry available in San Jose. Currently neither are.

SuperSet
04-23-2008, 6:53 PM
Oh man, I can't help but shake my head in disbelief. While we're at it, why don't we just legislate and parent away all signs of assertiveness and aggression in our youth? Surely, that will fix the problem. :rolleyes:

I guess Professor Librescu didn't get that memo about running away.

pullnshoot25
04-23-2008, 10:02 PM
If somebody's coming at you and going to shoot you, heck, yeah, you throw your biology book at them. If you can get a backpack, chair, or desk going their way, that'll help too. If you have time, pull out your pen and get ready to stab them.

Anything that distracts them and gives you and others time to grapple with them is much more likely to save your life than running or hiding.

You can't say what to do without being there, and you may die trying, but failing to resist is definitely what not an option.

Or your knife. Carry is legal on college campuses and I am always with my folder.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-23-2008, 11:32 PM
"play dead". I love it.


HAHA...yeah....I can see it now....an "active shooter" walks into a classroom hell bent on destruction and killing....much to his dismay, the entire class, in unison, drop to the ground and play dead....the "active shooter" might actually stop...not because he is fooled, but because he is rolling on the ground laughing.

That would be a very funny skit if anyone were interested.

aplinker
04-24-2008, 12:35 AM
What should I do?
If an active shooter enters your offie or classroom: If possible, escape or hide. Dial 911 (or our campus emergency #); if you cant speak, leave the line open so the dispatcher can listen to what's happening. If there's no opportunity to escape or hide, consider whether to try negotiating with or overtaking the shooter. Consider overtaking the shooter only after all other options have been exhausted. Do not touch anything that was in the vicinity of the shooter.

I'm sorry, but this isn't that big of nonsense like everyone is suggesting.

It says leave, if you can (good advice).

It says dial 911 if you can (good advice).

It says do something if you can't get away (good advice).

fighting back is what you do when it's your only option. If you can safely evade - do it.

CowboyShooter
04-24-2008, 7:34 AM
If an active shooter enters your office or classroom: If possible, escape or hide. Dial 911 or (999) 999-9999; if you can't speak, leave the line open so the dispatcher can listen to what's happening.



How else are they going to have dramatic sound bites for the evening news so everyone can hear you screaming
and the multiple gunshots ending your life as a sheep?

"What you are about to hear is disturbing" (but we will play it over and over again to get our ratings out of the toilet)

BillCA
04-24-2008, 10:29 AM
Seems to me that the advice to students is flee like rabbits at the first sound of a gunshot. :rolleyes:

Alternatively it's cower and hide from the mean man until someone with a gun shows up to deal with him. :ack2:

I have this mental image of a 2nd floor hallway, quiet in the middle of a class period when someone drops their heavy physics book on the floor -- boom! Then suddenly seeing 200 or more students jumping out of smashed windows or running zig-zag through the hallways with their hands in the air like a bad Hollywood sci-fi movie.


If there is no opportunity to escape "or hide, consider whether to try negotiating with or overtaking the shooter. Consider overtaking the shooter only after all other options have been exhausted. Do not touch anything that was in the vicinity of the shooter.



Negotiating? Are they frackin' serious? They're suggesting you try to negotiate with someone who, historically and statistically speaking, has decided his life is a worthless hell because of other people -- those same people he's going to slaughter like sheep -- and then take his own life.

This so-called advice is nothing more than appealing to the mercy of a deranged serial killer - who may not have any mercy in his soul.

And what is this with "don't touch anything that was in the vicinity of the shooter" business? If two or more students manage to get a gun away from the killer AND he still poses a theat, shoot the SOB with his own gun.


If you can not safely relocate, use furniture or equipment to barricade entrances.

Have any of these people even set foot on a frackin' campus? Of the last 5 schools I attended or visited, every single school has classroom doors that open outward from the classroom. Sure... Barricade it and when he opens the door outward, away from the barricade, he just pushes or kicks down some of the barricade to start firing. Then what?

A fire extinguisher would make a potent weapon, especially the dry-chemical ones. Aim for the face. An unexpected cloud of Purple-K into the eyes, nose and mouth will interrupt his capabilities. At the same time, have 2 others designated to take over the extinguisher if needed and as many others as you can to rush him during his disorientation. Don't be gentle either. The goal is to render him incapable of any offensive behavior.

Of course, the best response would be for one of these SOBs to open the classroom door and find students arranged in the classic "two lines" with weapons drawn.


(two lines: Classic British tactic for multiplying firepower before repeating rifles were common)

Nemo
04-24-2008, 10:49 AM
The universities could do much much more to protect their students and faculty. When I was going to UCD, I was pretty freaked out after Virginia Tech. I looked around and thought heavily about what could be done to make the campus safer. I also changed my habits and stopped studying on campus. Here is what can be done.

1. Better police: The VT police waited outside after taking a while to get there. They did not engage the suspect.

2. Close Campus: Shut down the campus when there are threats. UCD neglected to shut down the campus after an armed individual was killed by police on campus. VT left the campus open after the first murders. Shutting down the campus when there are threats would be the best step to combat these shooters.

3. Classroom windows: Many windows are blocked by metal shades. Most are double pane and cannot be opened. By putting emergency releases on windows and taking off the coverings, students could escape.

4. Electronic door locks: By installing electronic door locks on all the classrooms they could be locked in an emergency. Hotels do it so can colleges.

5. Cellphone text alerts & coverage: By sending out text messages to students, they could avoid coming to campus, and respond if there is a shooting. Many buildings don't have cell coverage. By improving coverage in these buildings students could call 911 and receive warnings.

6. Phone & Internet alerts: By calling all the classrooms and blocking all internet access with a message of the shooter, students would be warned. Many classrooms have wireless internet that the students use during class. If details were being streamed there, and via phone it would help.

7. Armed Security: By arming the campus security they could assist the police.

8. Take action against likely shooters: All of the shooters had given warning signs. The Colombine guys made a movie showing the massacreing students before and showed it to their class. The VT guy had been arrested for stalking and had written stories and threatened his English class. This was so bad that the entire class refused to return to class if he was there. The religious fanatics (Jihadists) who say the are going to blow up Americans on campus should similarly be kicked out of the school. Listening to students when they say they are going to kill others would help solve the problem.

9. Armed students and faculty By letting students who can legally own a gun, bring that with them, they could stop a campus shooting. Most people think this would lead to chaos and more shootings. It doesn't. The Jerusalem Yeshiva (religious college) shooting a month ago was stopped by an armed student. He was an IDF member with his M16 rifle.


By taking any combination of these measures, school shootings could be halted. It's not hard to identify these shooters, they have all said they were going to kill their classmates beforehand. The current situation on campuses make them extremely dangerous and vulnerable to attack. I was concerned about school shooters and bombing from radical student groups to the point that changed my habits after VT. I spent as little time on campus as possible afterwards.


Great suggestions! And I do think that, lacking legal concealed carry, a folding knife, a raft of students flinging books, packs, chairs, etc., or a bit of tactically-deployed fire-extinguisher action would be decent options.

Better to go down charging than curled up in the fetal position under a desk, yes? Of course, I've never been in those shoes.

SchooBaka
04-24-2008, 11:21 AM
HAHA...yeah....I can see it now....an "active shooter" walks into a classroom hell bent on destruction and killing....much to his dismay, the entire class, in unison, drop to the ground and play dead....the "active shooter" might actually stop...not because he is fooled, but because he is rolling on the ground laughing.

That would be a very funny skit if anyone were interested.

LOL.
Reminded me of this.
Make your own Gun Free Zone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhgzcioPet8)

SchooBaka
04-24-2008, 11:24 AM
I'm sorry, but this isn't that big of nonsense like everyone is suggesting.

It says leave, if you can (good advice).

It says dial 911 if you can (good advice).

It says do something if you can't get away (good advice).

fighting back is what you do when it's your only option. If you can safely evade - do it.

I think the part most have a problem with is the suggestion to play dead.

ldivinag
04-24-2008, 3:12 PM
i'm going to be posting a big GUN FREE ZONE poster on my office door.

that way, the armed gunman will see that and follow the rules and just walk away...




[/sarcasm]

SchooBaka
04-24-2008, 3:50 PM
How about a Zombie Free Zone sign.
I know there's a nuclear free zone sign at the city limits for Santa Cruz.
LOL, I just gave myself an idea! :chris:

Smokeybehr
04-24-2008, 4:08 PM
i'm going to be posting a big GUN FREE ZONE poster on my office door.

that way, the armed gunman will see that and follow the rules and just walk away...




[/sarcasm]

I'd rather see a FREE GUN ZONE... :D:D

I asked about 12050 permit holders being able to carry on the CSUFresno campus, but I haven't received a reply back yet.

Rob454
04-24-2008, 5:01 PM
Whatever you do dont freeze up or play dead. Run hide or attack. If I couldnt run I would attack. Especially if my family was with me. I rather die than watch my family get hurt. Do anything throw stuff at the person chairs books vases or my personal favorite coke cans. My buddy threw one at me. Well he lobbed it underhand real easy like. He realized I wasnt looking at him and he yelled out. the can hit me on the head and it hurt. that was with a low speed side of the can sotrt of hit. I cant imagine what a can woudl feel liek if thrown in self defence.

otteray
04-24-2008, 8:23 PM
So the perp sees all these "dead" students on the floor when he enters the room where no shots have been fired yet...
Yeah, that'll work.

CSDGuy
04-24-2008, 8:38 PM
I'd rather see a FREE GUN ZONE... :D:D

I asked about 12050 permit holders being able to carry on the CSUFresno campus, but I haven't received a reply back yet.
Legal. Probably against school policy. So... you wouldn't be committing a crime, but you could be expelled from school for the conduct.

CSDGuy
04-24-2008, 8:42 PM
Also, the Dry Chemical extinguisher idea is not a bad one. Timing would need to be pretty good though. Hit them in the face with the chemical, then whack the heck out of them with the empty METAL extinguisher.

Glock22Fan
04-24-2008, 9:09 PM
Thirty (say) students rushing at the perp holding chairs in front of them might get a few wounded, maybe a couple dead. Probably no more, as the perp would be rushed and unable to aim properly.

Thirty lying on the floor might well get thirty dead. The perp would have time to aim and do the job properly

Play the odds, I say.

otteray
04-25-2008, 4:53 AM
They should give out fake blood capsules to all students as a preventative measure.
I think the schools do already hand out some other health related items anyway; so it should be easily accomplished.

BillCA
04-25-2008, 11:40 AM
How about a Zombie Free Zone sign.
I know there's a nuclear free zone sign at the city limits for Santa Cruz.
LOL, I just gave myself an idea! :chris:

A Nuclear Zombie Free Zone?

or

A Nuclear Free Zombie Zone?

SchooBaka
04-25-2008, 7:04 PM
Also, the Dry Chemical extinguisher idea is not a bad one. Timing would need to be pretty good though. Hit them in the face with the chemical, then whack the heck out of them with the empty METAL extinguisher.

Good thinking. That stuff stings when it get in you're eyes and I suppose it wouldnt exactly help breathing in a mouthfull of it.

Mr.Boink
04-26-2008, 2:40 AM
Lets not be hasty now, playing dead might not be so bad... if you are properly equipped. All you need is a small balloon filled with fake blood.
When the bullets start to fly you can let loose a scream like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgXV2ets8xM) and start twitching violently to show your attacker that you are dying or dead. Just remember, pop your 'life bag' in a timely manner to avoid being shot.

On a more serious note, I would deal with my assailant by simply casting a fireball spell, turn invisible, and backstab him/her for 3x critical damage- I am that good :)

aileron
04-26-2008, 8:33 AM
On a more serious note, I would deal with my assailant by simply casting a fireball spell, turn invisible, and backstab him/her for 3x critical damage- I am that good :)

I guess they don't call you Mr Boink for nothing. Just fear what you do when your feeling a little frisky. :eek: