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Boxer
04-20-2008, 8:51 PM
I purchased a Titan Vault for traveling to and from the gun range. It is a steel vault, with handle, locks to a steel mount that can be bolted to the floor of the Excursion and has a push button combination to open the vault.

Assume the gun is unloaded and no magazines are touching the gun.

see link http://www.titangunvault.com/

I planned to have it just behind the center consul of an Excursion so I can get it in and out of the truck without having to get into the back seat area. The container is removable, will remain locked in transport to the home/range, and the mount will stay bolted to the floor.

A retired LE said that was illegal and it had to be mounted as far away from the driver as possible. He could not site a section or law and said it was case law that would impact the matter.

Is this correct?

M. Sage
04-20-2008, 8:54 PM
No mention of distance in PC. You transport it on your lap.

G17GUY
04-20-2008, 8:56 PM
Per CHP I will be traveling to California and want to carry my weapon. I currently have a concealed weapon permit. How can I legally transport my weapon while driving through the state?

California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

If you have additional questions, contact the California Department of Justice at 916-227-3703.

savageevo
04-20-2008, 9:00 PM
It seems all retired LE always says its illegal even though they can't tell you where the law is writted. I saw that at the gun show and thought it was a nice vault. But for almost two hundred I had to pass on it.

mymonkeyman
04-20-2008, 9:04 PM
Sadly LE often know very little about the law.

Librarian
04-20-2008, 9:07 PM
I purchased a Titan Vault for traveling to and from the gun range. It is a steel vault, with handle, locks to a steel mount that can be bolted to the floor of the Excursion and has a push button combination to open the vault.

Assume the gun is unloaded and no magazines are touching the gun.

see link http://www.titangunvault.com/

I planned to have it just behind the center consul of an Excursion so I can get it in and out of the truck without having to get into the back seat area. The container is removable, will remain locked in transport to the home/range, and the mount will stay bolted to the floor.

A retired LE said that was illegal and it had to be mounted as far away from the driver as possible. He could not site a section or law and said it was case law that would impact the matter.

Is this correct?
The only trick is whether someone would conclude it is actually a center console. The PC says "The term "locked container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle."

On the floor behind the front seats, on the back seats, on the front seat all are fine.

Boxer
04-20-2008, 9:12 PM
There is a magazine container that hooks to the (non hinged) edge of this vault. The lid of that container locks under the lid of the Titan vault and springs open when the Titan vault is opened.

Can a loaded magazine be kept in that locked acessories container that is locked via the Titian vault. The additional container is a protoype and is a special order right now. Does this complicate things?

Both items are in open view behind the seat in the center.

G17GUY
04-20-2008, 9:14 PM
Might as well just open carry:chris:

Boxer
04-20-2008, 9:18 PM
Perhaps I should clarify: Both items are in full view meaning the Titian vaul with the attached magazine carrier, both locked. The pistol and magazine are behind locked steel doors/covers.

artherd
04-20-2008, 9:48 PM
It can be in your lap.

Liberty1
04-20-2008, 9:56 PM
Can a loaded magazine be kept in that locked acessories container that is locked via the Titian vault.

Yes, per PC 12031g and "People vs Clark". What you are describing is no crime. Carry on!

Tell that retired 830.1 or other formerly duly appointed peace officer to get his backside registered here. Tell him to post that he is that retired 830.1 or other formerly duly appointed peace officer so we can rip him a new one on the internet!!!! He should stick to golfing!

Also go read PC 12026.1a, 12027 (f), 12025 (f) and all of 12031...

PS I love my titan!
PPS don't go asking about securing your titan to your vehicle at Calccw.org they'll tell you it's then a "utility compartment" :rofl2:

fun2none
04-20-2008, 10:06 PM
Yes, per PC 12031g and "People vs Clark". What you are describing is no crime. Carry on!

Tell that retired 830.1 or other formerly duly appointed peace officer to get his backside registered here. Tell him to post that he is that retired 830.1 or other formerly duly appointed peace officer so we can rip him a new one on the internet!!!! He should stick to golfing!

Also go read PC 12026.1a, 12027 (f), 12025 (f) and all of 12031...

PS I love my titan!
PPS don't go asking about securing your titan to your vehicle at Calccw.org they'll tell you it's then a "utility compartment" :rofl2:

What exactly is a utility compartment?:confused:
Is a utility compartment integral (built-in or attached) to the vehicle?

CSDGuy
04-20-2008, 10:14 PM
You bolt it in and it becomes part of the car. you bolt down a bracket, and click the vault to the bracket and it becomes part of the car. You cable lock it to something substantial, it's not part of the car. It's that I'm against securing your firearm well, it's that I'm more for not getting arrested. Any LEO would see a cable locked vault as a separate item. Bolt it down or click it to a bracket that's bolted and a LEO could easily claim that it's part of the car.

Personally, I kind of like the bracket method... keeps the vault in one specific spot while being removable from the vehicle. No FUD here... just extra safety really. Besides, as long as it's in a locked container and nothing in the cylinder or magwell, the container can be anywhere you want it to be...

Liberty1
04-20-2008, 10:36 PM
You bolt it in and it becomes part of the car. you bolt down a bracket, and click the vault to the bracket and it becomes part of the car.

Please cite an arrest, case law, DOJ opinion, or paid attorney opinion. Absent that I call it Orange County FUD.

CSDGuy
04-20-2008, 11:32 PM
Please cite an arrest, case law, DOJ opinion, or paid attorney opinion. Absent that I call it Orange County FUD.
How about you provide the same that supports your argument?

Remember, arrests would be for PC 12025... not for violating 12026.1 or .2. Arrests for violation of 12025 include all the center console, glove box, under the seat...

I do believe I read that info or synthesized that info myself from "How to own a gun in California and stay out of jail". Good book. I've been trying to find my copy of it (2007 version, 2008 is supposed to be basically unchanged) to back up or refute my own memory.

64Chevy
04-21-2008, 6:21 AM
The Grant Boys usually has the Stay Out of Jail in CA. 2008 book at the check out counter for those of us in SoCal.

http://www.grantboys.com/

1750 Newport Blvd.
Costa Mesa, CA 92627

artherd
04-21-2008, 8:19 AM
You bolt it in and it becomes part of the car. you bolt down a bracket, and click the vault to the bracket and it becomes part of the car. You cable lock it to something substantial, it's not part of the car. It's that I'm against securing your firearm well, it's that I'm more for not getting arrested. Any LEO would see a cable locked vault as a separate item. Bolt it down or click it to a bracket that's bolted and a LEO could easily claim that it's part of the car.

Oh really? Think FORD would warrantee it then?

Want to go up against me in court and claim a separately purchased combination gun lock box that is not supplied installed or serviced by FORD is 'part of the vehicle?'

Cite case or statute law to back this up, otherwise I call shenanigans.

Scarecrow Repair
04-21-2008, 8:34 AM
Oh really? Think FORD would warrantee it then?

Want to go up against me in court and claim a separately purchased combination gun lock box that is not supplied installed or serviced by FORD is 'part of the vehicle?'

Cite case or statute law to back this up, otherwise I call shenanigans.

Slightly off topic .. a friend has a $4000 welder / generator which he welded to the bed of his pickup, saying the vehicle insurance covers it in case of collision if it is "permanently" attached (not to mention making it harder to steal). There might be some similar consideration for bolting a lockbox inside a vehicle, but a law is easier to find that insurance company policy, and more difficult to change on a whim.

Liberty1
04-21-2008, 10:28 AM
How about you provide the same that supports your argument?

I would if was possible to prove a negative. Balls in your court.

New
04-21-2008, 11:54 AM
Out of arms reach. Thats what the sheriff here says

Glock22Fan
04-21-2008, 12:32 PM
Out of arms reach. Thats what the sheriff here says

And we all know that what the Sheriff says just absolutely has to be the law, the complete law and nothing but the law.

If only.

eta34
04-21-2008, 12:32 PM
Out of arms reach. Thats what the sheriff here says

NO, NO, NO!

Liberty1
04-21-2008, 12:35 PM
Is there a name and a jurisdiction to go with that title?

Fate
04-21-2008, 1:02 PM
Is there a name and a jurisdiction to go with that title?

Buford T. Justice, Texarkana. :D

Librarian
04-21-2008, 1:33 PM
Oh really? Think FORD would warrantee it then?

Want to go up against me in court and claim a separately purchased combination gun lock box that is not supplied installed or serviced by FORD is 'part of the vehicle?'

Cite case or statute law to back this up, otherwise I call shenanigans.

I think the emphasis ought to be a LEO could easily claim that it's part of the car.

Whether it has already occurred or that such a claim is quite likely to be wrong is less interesting. I'd call it 'constructive paranoia' or 'very conservative analysis of an amount of risk I wish to accept' or perhaps 'an extremely low opinion of the PC knowledge of an average LEO in California when confronted with a novelty'.

Honestly, I don't think there ought to be any problem at all with the Titan installed as described, it's just that we're back to the "58 elected DAs problem" again.

MudCamper
04-21-2008, 2:41 PM
Out of arms reach. Thats what the sheriff here says

New, as others here have stated, sadly, many (if not most) LEO do not know the law very well. If you want to know the law, my carry and transport flyer (http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf) is a good place to start.

New
04-21-2008, 2:52 PM
NO, NO, NO!

YES YES YES YES.

12026.1 (1)
The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle; other than the utility or glove compartment.
If you do not have a glove compartment, like an RV, it has to be out of arms reach. Call you local LEO office, they will most likely tell you to call your sheriff, and they will tell you, to transport it locked, ammo separate and OUT OF ARMS REACH.

mymonkeyman
04-21-2008, 2:59 PM
YES YES YES YES.

12026.1 (1)
The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle; other than the utility or glove compartment.
If you do not have a glove compartment, like an RV, it has to be out of arms reach. Call you local LEO office, they will most likely tell you to call your sheriff, and they will tell you, to transport it locked, ammo separate and OUT OF ARMS REACH.

Are you incapable of reading a statute?

It says that, for the exception to 12025 to apply, the firearm must be in the locked trunk or a locked container in the vehicle, and that said locked containers do not include the utility or glove compartment. It says nothing about within an arms reach. It also says that glove compartments ARE NOT sufficient. Please stop spreading FUD.

Librarian
04-21-2008, 3:00 PM
YES YES YES YES.

12026.1 (1)
The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle; other than the utility or glove compartment.
If you do not have a glove compartment, like an RV, it has to be out of arms reach. Call you local LEO office, they will most likely tell you to call your sheriff, and they will tell you, to transport it locked, ammo separate and OUT OF ARMS REACH.

So, you quoted the correct Penal Code. Where in it do you see "out of arm's reach"?

I submit that you will not find it there. And if it isn't in the PC, it isn't required, no matter how emphatically your local Sheriff may wish it so.

MudCamper
04-21-2008, 3:10 PM
YES YES YES YES.

12026.1 (1)
The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle; other than the utility or glove compartment.
If you do not have a glove compartment, like an RV, it has to be out of arms reach. Call you local LEO office, they will most likely tell you to call your sheriff, and they will tell you, to transport it locked, ammo separate and OUT OF ARMS REACH.

New, you partially quoted the 12026.1 exemption, and then you added a sentance that does not exist. Where are you getting this misinformation?

Please go here: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html, and check "Penal Code", and search for 12026.1, then read.

Here's the full text of 12026.1:

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted
classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

Decoligny
04-21-2008, 3:15 PM
YES YES YES YES.

12026.1 (1)
The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle; other than the utility or glove compartment.
If you do not have a glove compartment, like an RV, it has to be out of arms reach. Call you local LEO office, they will most likely tell you to call your sheriff, and they will tell you, to transport it locked, ammo separate and OUT OF ARMS REACH.

And they will also tell you stuff like, "You can't carry a firearm without a License to carry concealed." or "It is illegal to open carry."

The LEO is not the best source for legal information. A lot of them will tell you whatever they feel like telling you as long as it makes their job easier. Doesn't matter if it is innacurate information or not.

Read the Penal Code for yourself. Don't believe anything that anybody puts out without first VERIFYING that it actually says it in the Penal Code.

The AG booklet, the CHP booklet, the LAPD booklet, any other LEO booklet will always tell you how to stay 30 miles this side of legal. They will not tell you where the line actually is that devides legal/illegal. You have to do some homework and find that line for yourself.

Here are a couple of resources that will help guide you in doing you own research and study of the ACTUAL PENAL CODES, not somebody's opinion on what they heard their CCW instructor's cousin's best friend's ex-wife's brother-in-law enforcement say.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/8457.html
http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf

Boxer
04-21-2008, 3:16 PM
Humm...aren't there any LEOs or gun attorneys out there to chime in? Well maybe not the attornies.

In any case it sounds like is it OK to place just behind the center consul within arms reach even if others are saying no, there is no law saying no.

After this thread who knows...

Decoligny
04-21-2008, 3:19 PM
Humm...aren't there any LEOs or gun attorneys out there to chime in? Well maybe not the attornies.

In any case it sounds like is it OK to place just behind the center consul within arms reach even if others are saying no, there is no law saying no.

After this thread who knows...

Liberty1 has already chimed in a couple of times.

MudCamper
04-21-2008, 3:32 PM
Humm...aren't there any LEOs or gun attorneys out there to chime in? Well maybe not the attornies.

In any case it sounds like is it OK to place just behind the center consul within arms reach even if others are saying no, there is no law saying no.

After this thread who knows...

Boxer, more often than not, when a LEO chimes in, he's going to tell you what he thinks you should do, what makes him comfortable, not what is the law. And many well-informed people have already chimed in, and have further stated that you can read the PC yourself if you don't believe them. At what point does reason overpower fear? These thread really drive me crazy because they come up at least once a week, and no matter what anyone says, FUD always wins.

New
04-21-2008, 4:21 PM
If you have your firearm in a locked container, and the ammunition is separate, and you do not have a trunk, then it must be NOT IN ARMS REACH. Like I said, call your Sheriff.

FUD:p

Librarian
04-21-2008, 4:23 PM
If you have your firearm in a locked container, and the ammunition is separate, and you do not have a trunk, then it must be NOT IN ARMS REACH. Like I said, call your Sheriff.

FUD:p
Ah, New? I think you may be on the way to Former. Repeating what has been refuted is not a successful way to advance a conversation.

Boxer
04-21-2008, 4:26 PM
Got it! Thanks for your help all my fellow forum members.

mymonkeyman
04-21-2008, 4:28 PM
If you have your firearm in a locked container, and the ammunition is separate, and you do not have a trunk, then it must be NOT IN ARMS REACH. Like I said, call your Sheriff.

FUD:p

Like my local Sheriff said, if you are marrying a virgin you have to let him have sex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prima_Nocte)with her before you do. Like I said, call your Sheriff. Why would he lie?

M. Sage
04-21-2008, 4:37 PM
If you have your firearm in a locked container, and the ammunition is separate, and you do not have a trunk, then it must be NOT IN ARMS REACH. Like I said, call your Sheriff.

FUD:p

Again, where is that coming from?

You do know what FUD means, right?

There is nothing, nada, zip about the distance an unloaded and locked firearm must be from people inside the vehicle.

There is also nothing in PC against having ammunition in the same locked container. It is in fact legal to keep loaded magazines inside your locked gun case with your handgun. Now, quite a few LEO will tell you "a loaded magazine is a loaded weapon!", and they'd be right... but only if you're a known criminal or gang member.

Go read the laws for yourself, and don't believe everything the sheriff says. Get pulled over, and sheriff will say "I can search your car whether you give me permission or not... so can I search your car?"

That's alright.. cause they're never incorrect or lie. :rolleyes:

ROFL, monkeyman. Ius primae noctis, eh? :p

MudCamper
04-21-2008, 5:08 PM
If you have your firearm in a locked container, and the ammunition is separate, and you do not have a trunk, then it must be NOT IN ARMS REACH. Like I said, call your Sheriff.

FUD:p

But if your firearm is NOT in a locked container, and the ammunition is NOT separate, and you DO have a trunk, then YOU MUST BE IN THE TRUNK! ;)

This guy is seriously confused... Or he's just trolling us, quite successfully.

eta34
04-21-2008, 5:34 PM
I am an LEO. Arms reach is not in the penal code. Provide me evidence to the contrary.

Boxer
04-21-2008, 5:48 PM
Just for the fun of it and to drive myself a little crazy before I drill holes in the floor of my Excursion, I thought, why not call the local PD?

I did, and they said, the locked container cannot be within arms reach of the driver. I said hmm, I can't seem to find that anywhere in the PC section 1220. They said it is there we can't take the time to find it for you, go on the internet and find it for yourself.

Seems like a nice way to say they don't know what the true answer is.

eta34, thanks for the clear cut answer. Now I go get the drill.

leelaw
04-21-2008, 6:46 PM
If you have your firearm in a locked container, and the ammunition is separate, and you do not have a trunk, then it must be NOT IN ARMS REACH. Like I said, call your Sheriff.

FUD:p

I'll make this short and as diplomatic as posisble: You are wrong.

In a locked conatiner, there are no restrictions on the placement of the container, nor are you required to keep ammunition out of the same locked container, or have it in a separate locked container.

You're merely spreading bad information. Read the relevant penal code and stop adding your conjecture which does not align with the law.

Boxer
04-21-2008, 6:50 PM
What is you owned an El Camino. Any where in the cab space is within arms reach eh...

jc_stecker
04-21-2008, 6:56 PM
So what exactly is "within arm's reach," and who's arms are they talking about? Arm's reach is everywhere in a regular cab of a small pickup, or if you have passengers.

:confused:

M. Sage
04-21-2008, 7:03 PM
What is you owned an El Camino. Any where in the cab space is within arms reach eh...

... Mazda Miata? My wife unfastened her seat belt, reached over the trunk and got her keys out of the lock back there once. Even the trunk is within arm's reach, though it'd be a bit awkward.

... Motorcycle? I transport on 2 wheels a bit more now. So easy with a handgun! If your bike is big enough to put your gun out of arm's reach, I don't want to ride it.

For that matter...

... Bicycle? Come on, it's good for the environment!

... Public transportation? What, I can't take BART to/from a gun shop?! I can't take a bus?! What next?!

Someone call up that sheriff, tell him to get a room ready. I transport within easy reach about 90% of the time.

johnny_22
04-21-2008, 7:30 PM
If you are stopped with drugs and a gun is withing arms reach, you can be charged with the additional charge of guns+drugs (Federal)

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/989/989.F2d.1111.92-50191.html

"Carrying" under this statute is shown when the firearm is within reach during the commission of the narcotics offense. The term "relation to" for the purposes of a violation of Title 18, Section 924(c) requires a causal connection between the narcotics offense and the firearm."

It appears that some extrapolate that to include coffee drinkers.

Liberty1
04-21-2008, 7:59 PM
The following is NOT for New as he already has had the law laid down by his sheriff but rather for all the others who care to learn.

California Penal Code

(now this part only describes the "elements" of the violation)

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.


(This part has some language which may be the sourse of confusion for some. Read the bolded words for clarity)

(b) Carrying a concealed firearm in violation of this section is
punishable, as follows...
(6) By imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a
county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment if
both of the following conditions are met:

(A) Both the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person and the unexpended ammunition capable of
being discharged from that firearm are either in the immediate
possession of the person or readily accessible to that person, or the
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person is loaded as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12031.

AND

(B) The person is not listed with the Department of Justice
pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 11106, as the
registered owner of that pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

(so to recap...Only if you are in violation of 12025 and you have both ammo for that pistol AND the concealed pistol is not registered to you does this punishment section apply) (note there are other punishment sections I did not quote here)


(here is my favorite part! :))

(f) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed
within the meaning of this section.

(Now we're into the exemption sections which tell us were this law doesn't apply)

12026. (a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years...
who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen'
s or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on
private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal
resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person.
(b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or
carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years... or to
purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed,
a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person within the citizen's or legal resident's place of
residence, place of business, or on private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting the
application of Section 12031.

(and another one which deals with vehicle transport)

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years... from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container....
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

(and yet another exemption section which seems to deal with non vehicle travel)

12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(1) The possession of a firearm by an authorized participant in a
motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment
event when the participant lawfully uses the firearm as part of that
production or event or while going directly to, or coming directly
from, that production or event.
(2) The possession of a firearm in a locked container by a member
of any club or organization, organized for the purpose of lawfully
collecting and lawfully displaying pistols, revolvers, or other
firearms, while the member is at meetings of the clubs or
organizations or while going directly to, and coming directly from,
those meetings.
(3) The transportation of a firearm by a participant when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a recognized safety or hunter
safety class, or a recognized sporting event involving that firearm.

(4) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 directly between any of the places mentioned in Section 12026.

(5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or
private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or
the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.
(6) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 when going directly from the place where that person lawfully
received that firearm to that person's place of residence or place of
business or to private property owned or lawfully possessed by that
person.
(7) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show, swap meet, or
similar event to which the public is invited, for the purpose of
displaying that firearm in a lawful manner.
(8) The transportation of a firearm by an authorized employee or
agent of a supplier of firearms when going directly to, or coming
directly from, a motion picture, television, or video production or
entertainment event for the purpose of providing that firearm to an
authorized participant to lawfully use as a part of that production
or event.
(9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a
regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing
shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range.
(10) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a place designated by a person
authorized to issue licenses pursuant to Section 12050 when done at
the request of the issuing agency so that the issuing agency can
determine whether or not a license should be issued to that person to
carry that firearm.
(11) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a lawful camping activity for
the purpose of having that firearm available for lawful personal
protection while at the lawful campsite. This paragraph shall not be
construed to override the statutory authority granted to the
Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local
governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing
the administration of parks and campgrounds.
(12) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with subdivision (c) or (i) of Section 12078 as it pertains to
that firearm.
(13) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
utilize subdivision (l) of Section 12078 as it pertains to that
firearm.
(14) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show or event...
(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.
(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle.

Liberty1
04-21-2008, 8:00 PM
(and even more exemptions which include peace officers, licenses to carry, and members of shooting ranges. Persons who can claim this exemption ARE NOT required to use a locked case)

12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(a) (1) (A) Any peace officer...
(b) The possession or transportation of unloaded pistols,
revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
person as merchandise by a person who is engaged in the business of
manufacturing, importing, wholesaling, repairing, or dealing in
firearms and who is licensed to engage in that business or the
authorized representative or authorized agent of that person while
engaged in the lawful course of the business.
(c) Members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, or Marine
Corps of the United States, or the National Guard, when on duty, or
organizations which are by law authorized to purchase or receive
those weapons from the United States or this state.
(d) The carrying of unloaded pistols, revolvers, or other firearms
capable of being concealed upon the person by duly authorized
military or civil organizations while parading, or the members
thereof when going to and from the places of meeting of their
respective organizations.
(e) Guards or messengers of common carriers, banks, and other
financial institutions while actually employed in and about the
shipment, transportation, or delivery of any money, treasure,
bullion, bonds, or other thing of value within this state.
(f) Members of any club or organization organized for the purpose
of practicing shooting at targets upon established target ranges,
whether public or private, while the members are using pistols,
revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
person upon the target ranges, or transporting these firearms
unloaded when going to and from the ranges.
(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.
(h) Transportation of unloaded firearms by a person operating a
licensed common carrier or an authorized agent or employee thereof
when transported in conformance with applicable federal law....
(j) The carrying of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person by a person who is authorized to
carry that weapon in a concealed manner pursuant to Article 3
(commencing with Section 12050).

I suggest, NEW, that you copy this text in an email to your sheriff for his benefit. Some where there is a POST continuation class missing it's idiot!:chris:

Librarian
04-21-2008, 8:03 PM
Hokey Smokes, Bullwinkle!

That link includes To satisfy the element of carrying, the Ninth Circuit requires that the weapon be available. United States v. Torres-Medina, 935 F.2d 1047, 1049 (9th Cir.1991) (that defendant was a paraplegic incapable of retrieving gun found in crawl space under his house did not preclude finding that gun was available)There's a rationale I hope the court is not proud of.

hawk1
04-23-2008, 9:25 AM
With regards to California Penal Code Section 12026.2 numbers 1-20, most have the words by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, is this to prevent a person from transporting a handgun, in a locked container, during the course of his or her day? Is it that they are trying to limit a person from driving around anywhere with it in a locked container?
I agree the term within arms length is FUD and nowhere to be found in the PC.

E Pluribus Unum
04-23-2008, 9:31 AM
With regards to California Penal Code Section 12026.2 numbers 1-20, most have the words by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, is this to prevent a person from transporting a handgun, in a locked container, during the course of his or her day? Is it that they are trying to limit a person from driving around anywhere with it in a locked container?
I agree the term within arms length is FUD and nowhere to be found in the PC.

Yeah... what he said.

MudCamper
04-23-2008, 9:39 AM
With regards to California Penal Code Section 12026.2 numbers 1-20, most have the words by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, is this to prevent a person from transporting a handgun, in a locked container, during the course of his or her day? Is it that they are trying to limit a person from driving around anywhere with it in a locked container?

Opinions vary on this. 12026.2 does limit where you can go, and states you can only make "reasonable deviations". However, 12026.2 does not specifically refer to motor vehicles. It applies to all forms of transportation, including walking. 12026.1 specifically refers to motor vehicles, and it does not list locations nor limit deviations. So, you are OK with handguns in your car (unloaded in a lockbox of course), regardless of locations or deviations, IMO.

mymonkeyman
04-23-2008, 9:55 AM
With regards to California Penal Code Section 12026.2 numbers 1-20, most have the words by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, is this to prevent a person from transporting a handgun, in a locked container, during the course of his or her day? Is it that they are trying to limit a person from driving around anywhere with it in a locked container?
I agree the term within arms length is FUD and nowhere to be found in the PC.

12026.2 requires you to be coming or going from a proper place with the firearm in the locked container.

12026.1 only requires the firearm to be in the car and a locked trunk or locked container other than the glove box / utility box.

So, you can drive around with the unloaded gun in the car in a locked container under 12026.1. But if you are walking (or bicycling), you need to follow 12026.2 by coming or going directly from a proper place.

hawk1
04-23-2008, 1:43 PM
12026.2 requires you to be coming or going from a proper place with the firearm in the locked container.

12026.1 only requires the firearm to be in the car and a locked trunk or locked container other than the glove box / utility box.

So, you can drive around with the unloaded gun in the car in a locked container under 12026.1. But if you are walking (or bicycling), you need to follow 12026.2 by coming or going directly from a proper place.

Really? Section 12026.2 is only a disclaimer for section 12025 in that you cannot be convicted of a concealed weapon when you follow 12026.2
I didn't read anything about it applying to walking or bicycling? I need to go back and re-read and find out what I missed...

So, ultimately a person is able to transport his handgun in a bolted down and locked vault in his vehicle. Now does Section 12026.1 allow for him to go about his day without regards to going directly to, or coming directly from verbage in Section 12026.2?

MudCamper
04-23-2008, 2:01 PM
Really? Section 12026.2 is only a disclaimer for section 12025 in that you cannot be convicted of a concealed weapon when you follow 12026.2
I didn't read anything about it applying to walking or bicycling? I need to go back and re-read and find out what I missed...

12026.2 does not mention bicycles. But it does not mention any vehicles at all. 12026.1 specifically refers to motor vehicles.

So, ultimately a person is able to transport his handgun in a bolted down and locked vault in his vehicle. Now does Section 12026.1 allow for him to go about his day without regards to going directly to, or coming directly from verbage in Section 12026.2?

That is my interpretation. How could you be prosecuted for 12025 if you follow 12026.1? It exempts you. Some argue that you have to read 12026.1 and 12026.2 together, but that makes no sense to me. What makes more sense is if you are walking, or bicycling, you only have 12026.2 available to you, so you are restricted by location.

mymonkeyman
04-23-2008, 2:07 PM
Really? Section 12026.2 is only a disclaimer for section 12025 in that you cannot be convicted of a concealed weapon when you follow 12026.2
I didn't read anything about it applying to walking or bicycling? I need to go back and re-read and find out what I missed...

So, ultimately a person is able to transport his handgun in a bolted down and locked vault in his vehicle. Now does Section 12026.1 allow for him to go about his day without regards to going directly to, or coming directly from verbage in Section 12026.2?


I was talking about the practical effect of 12026.1 and 12026.2 together. You don't have to rely on 12026.2 if you satisfy 12026.1. You don't satisfy 12026.1 if you are not in a motor vehicle. Since 12026.2 requires you to be coming or going from somewhere, it is only really relevant to the extent you are coming or going from somewhere via something other than a motor vehicle. Walking and bicycling were only a couple of examples.

Librarian
04-23-2008, 2:24 PM
I was talking about the practical effect of 12026.1 and 12026.2 together. You don't have to rely on 12026.2 if you satisfy 12026.1. You don't satisfy 12026.1 if you are in a motor vehicle. Since 12026.2 requires you to be coming or going from somewhere, it is only really relevant to the extent you are coming or going from somewhere via something other than a motor vehicle. Walking and bicycling were only a couple of examples.
Would it be the case, do you think, that most of 12026.2 is an explanation of 12026.1(a)(2)? (2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
Something on the order of 'once you get where you're going, as far as you can by car, it's OK to walk from your car to, among other places we do not specify, the following list of places/activities ...'

(And wouldn't that be "You don't satisfy 12026.2 if you are in a motor vehicle." ?) (And why does the not-concerned-with-automobiles 12026.2 include " (d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle."? Legislative sloppiness at its finest, perhaps.)

hawk1
04-23-2008, 2:40 PM
I was talking about the practical effect of 12026.1 and 12026.2 together. You don't have to rely on 12026.2 if you satisfy 12026.1. You don't satisfy 12026.1 if you are in a motor vehicle.


Can you explain this more? The section (12026.1) must "pertain to motor vehicles" with words such as The firearm is within a motor vehicle, locked container in the vehicle, to or from any motor vehicle, How could you not "satisfy" 12026.1 with being in a motor vehicle?


Since 12026.2 requires you to be coming or going from somewhere, it is only really relevant to the extent you are coming or going from somewhere via something other than a motor vehicle. Walking and bicycling were only a couple of examples.

If it only applies to something "other than a motor vehicle" then why would they close out the section with (d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle.?
I know the asshats that wrote these laws tend to write this gibberish to confuse as many people as possible, but WTF? :confused:

Californio
04-23-2008, 2:48 PM
So does a Boyts Harness Soft Case meet the container rules.

http://www.boytharness.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=31_25&products_id=204

Pistol with empty magazine in magwell in the soft compartment with TSA combo lock.

4 loaded magazines in the exterior pocket?

MudCamper
04-23-2008, 3:00 PM
... Legislative sloppiness at its finest, perhaps.

I think this is the correct answer. The only possible solution is to find the historical context to which these sections were created. That I don't know how to do... Regardless, has there ever been a 12025 conviction when the charged was complying with 12026.1 and not 12026.2? I doubt it.

hawk1
04-23-2008, 3:02 PM
So does a Boyts Harness Soft Case meet the container rules.

http://www.boytharness.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=31_25&products_id=204

Pistol with empty magazine in magwell in the soft compartment with TSA combo lock.

4 loaded magazines in the exterior pocket?

Absolutely it does. It reads a secure container which is fully enclosed
which that case is. Obviously a paper sack with a lock on the fold is not secure, or a sandwich bag, etc... You get the idea of what is not a secure container.

Chaingun
04-24-2008, 11:57 AM
So what exactly is "within arm's reach," and who's arms are they talking about? Arm's reach is everywhere in a regular cab of a small pickup, or if you have passengers.

:confused:

The King's arm of course, like the King's thumb.:D

SteveH
04-24-2008, 12:01 PM
Please cite an arrest, case law, DOJ opinion, or paid attorney opinion. Absent that I call it Orange County FUD.

The only case i can recall along those lines was a locked diamond plate tool chest in the bed of a truck was determined by the court to not be a "locked" container suitable for transporting a handgun because it was a utility compartment.

Smokeybehr
04-24-2008, 3:33 PM
The only case i can recall along those lines was a locked diamond plate tool chest in the bed of a truck was determined by the court to not be a "locked" container suitable for transporting a handgun because it was a utility compartment.

Case cite? That's the only way that I can transport in a locked container besides a padlock on the zipper of my range bag. There's nowhere else in my P/U to put my long guns besides behind the seat.

mymonkeyman
04-24-2008, 3:37 PM
Can you explain this more? The section (12026.1) must "pertain to motor vehicles" with words such as The firearm is within a motor vehicle, locked container in the vehicle, to or from any motor vehicle, How could you not "satisfy" 12026.1 with being in a motor vehicle?


If it only applies to something "other than a motor vehicle" then why would they close out the section with (d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle.?
I know the asshats that wrote these laws tend to write this gibberish to confuse as many people as possible, but WTF? :confused:

Typo, thanks for pointing it out. I needed a "not" in there.

mymonkeyman
04-24-2008, 3:43 PM
Would it be the case, do you think, that most of 12026.2 is an explanation of 12026.1(a)(2)?

Something on the order of 'once you get where you're going, as far as you can by car, it's OK to walk from your car to, among other places we do not specify, the following list of places/activities ...'

I don't think so, by its terms 12026.2 would let you walk to and from places with your gun in a locked container. I think 12026.2 was mainly added to not excessively disenfranchise people who did not own cars but were performing what are relatively PC gun-owning activities.

(And wouldn't that be "You don't satisfy 12026.2 if you are in a motor vehicle." ?)

I meant not being in a motor vehicle or coming or going to it means you do "not" satisfy 12026.1. You can satisfy 12026.2 by being in a motor vehicle, but it is largely duplicative of 12026.1.

(And why does the not-concerned-with-automobiles 12026.2 include " (d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle."? Legislative sloppiness at its finest, perhaps.)

I think the reason the language is the same is because 12026.2 was not meant to expand beyond the scope of 12026.1 except when you aren't getting to the place via a motor vehicle. If it didn't have that language though, 12026.2 would allow you to keep your handgun in the glovebox when coming or going to any of those listed places (like coming or going to work). Since police apparently hate guns in gloveboxes, they wanted to make sure that 12026.2 wasn't an end-around the glovebox limitation of 12026.1.

Bad Voodoo
04-24-2008, 4:45 PM
I'll make this short and as diplomatic as posisble: You are wrong.

In a locked conatiner, there are no restrictions on the placement of the container, nor are you required to keep ammunition out of the same locked container, or have it in a separate locked container.

You're merely spreading bad information. Read the relevant penal code and stop adding your conjecture which does not align with the law.

How about a locking device? Does it have to be a "container" by definition, or could you lock a handgun to your front console, in plain sight, via a locking holster of some sort?

Edit: I should have kept reading - I now see that the container in question must be completely "enclosed."

M. Sage
04-24-2008, 5:10 PM
So does a Boyts Harness Soft Case meet the container rules.

http://www.boytharness.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=31_25&products_id=204

Pistol with empty magazine in magwell in the soft compartment with TSA combo lock.

4 loaded magazines in the exterior pocket?

Absolutely.

artherd
04-24-2008, 11:39 PM
The only case i can recall along those lines was a locked diamond plate tool chest in the bed of a truck was determined by the court to not be a "locked" container suitable for transporting a handgun because it was a utility compartment.

Cite please?

I assume this is supreme or appellate level?

GuyW
04-25-2008, 11:22 AM
Case cite? That's the only way that I can transport in a locked container besides a padlock on the zipper of my range bag. There's nowhere else in my P/U to put my long guns besides behind the seat.

(setting aside the federal gun-in-school-zone law, IIRC) LONG guns don't have to be locked in a case, only concealable guns...

M. Sage
04-25-2008, 5:01 PM
(setting aside the federal gun-in-school-zone law, IIRC) LONG guns don't have to be locked in a case, only concealable guns...

This is entirely true, also.

California law defines a firearm capable of being concealed as being a firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches in length (Penal Code 12001(a)(1)). If you have a rifle or shotgun that short, you're already in for a world of hurt, locked case or not.

Boxer
04-25-2008, 6:46 PM
Well, before I drilled holes in the floor board of my Excusrion I deceided to call the CA Highway Patrol and the DOJ.

Both provide very quick answers, no hesitation at all:

"There is nothing in the Penal Code about an arms distance from the driver. The firearm must be unloaded, the container must be fully enclosed and locked!"

Do you here the drill running?

Boxer
05-18-2008, 3:34 PM
Mr. XXXXX,

This is in response to your recent correspondence to the Bureau of Firearms, regarding the lawful transportation of a handgun in a motor vehicle in California. Any handgun transported without a permit in a motor vehicle in California must be transported in a fully enclosed, locked container pursuant to Sections 12025, and 12026.1, and 12026.2 of the California Penal Code.

The law does not specify that the locked container be out of reach of the driver, although it does specify that a glove compartment / glove box does not meet the requirements of the Penal Code.

I hope this information is helpful to you. If you have any further questions or need further assistance, please contact the Bureau of Firearms at (916) 263 - 4887, or via e-mail.

Sincerely,

Brent George
Staff Services Analyst
California Department of Justice
Bureau of Firearms
Training, Information, and Compliance Section

(916) 263 - 4868

ChessRatz
05-18-2008, 7:08 PM
There is definitely something wrong with this thread. Eight pages worth of reading and Boxer posts something from the DOJ that clearly answers his original question. That has to be a first.

Liberty1
05-19-2008, 8:05 AM
Mr. XXXXX,

...Any handgun transported without a permit in a motor vehicle in California must be transported in a fully enclosed, locked container pursuant to Sections 12025, and 12026.1, and 12026.2 of the California Penal Code...


Sincerely,

Brent George
Staff Services Analyst
California Department of Justice
Bureau of Firearms
Training, Information, and Compliance Section

(916) 263 - 4868

Mister Brent, the above is FUD. Please report for retraining and read section 12025 (f). And quote it in your correspondence as that is also a legal way to transport a handgun in one's motor vehicle.

And I can't wait until your department is forced to deal with Heller. :p :cool2:

IGOTDIRT4U
05-19-2008, 2:57 PM
Oh really? Think FORD would warrantee it then?

Want to go up against me in court and claim a separately purchased combination gun lock box that is not supplied installed or serviced by FORD is 'part of the vehicle?'

Cite case or statute law to back this up, otherwise I call shenanigans.


Talk about FUD. Does FORD warranty aftermarket wheels one may put on their FORD?!? After all, they are bolted on!

eta34
05-19-2008, 3:00 PM
You are all wrong. All guns are illegal to transport. BB guns, rubber band guns, water pistols. You all will go to jail.

Ironchef
05-19-2008, 3:31 PM
This thread should have ended after POST 2 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1152257&postcount=2)

Although it's fun to mess with the unlearned who swear you have to have your gun in the very, very back of your trunk, under the tire, encased in cement, with chains and a huge lock on it, and on the front bumper, in an entombed cement case the ammo has to be hidden...as far as possible...and the driver can't even be in the car because their elastic arms might access both!! lol I know I always just rent a trailer to put the gun in, and have someone at the head of the rented convoy in front of me carry the ammo. Much safer that way.

Decoligny
05-19-2008, 4:58 PM
Mister Brent, the above is FUD. Please report for retraining and read section 12025 (f). And quote it in your correspondence as that is also a legal way to transport a handgun in one's motor vehicle.

And I can't wait until your department is forced to deal with Heller. :p :cool2:

Here is the e-mail question that I sent to DOJ Firearms division: It is my understanding that currently there is nothing in the Penal Code that prohibits a law abiding citizen from carrying an unloaded firearm in a belt holster and carrying a full magazine in a belt holder, while traveling in a motor vehicle (except within 1000 feet of a school zone), as long as the ammunition is in no way attached to the firearm.

It has been brought to my attention that Kern County Sheriff's Deputies are being trained that anyone including law abiding citizens who are carrying both an unloaded firearm and ammunition for that firearm are to be considered as carrying a loaded firearm.

Which is the correct definition? If I were to drive with a firearm and ammunition outside of any prohibited areas (schools or state capital area), would I be violating the law?

FUD RESPONSE FROM DOJ:

Mr. XXXXX,

This is in response to your recent correspondence to the Bureau of Firearms, regarding driving in a motor vehicle with an exposed firearm and ammunition on your person. Many jurisdictions in California are beginning to interpret the term "loaded firearm" to include a loaded magazine, or a person with ammunition on his or her person, in the same vehicle as an otherwise legally transported firearm for which that ammunition is designed. This is a matter of interpretation of state law by local jurisdictions, and as such a matter most appropriately addressed with the local district attorney's office.

That said, you may want to refer to Section 12026.1 of the California Penal Code, regarding the transportation of a concealable firearm in a motor vehicle:

" 12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm: (1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment. (2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container. (b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter. (c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device."


I hope this information is helpful to you. If you have any further questions or need further assistance, please contact the Bureau of Firearms at (916) 263 - 4887, or via e-mail.

Sincerely,

Brent George
Staff Services Analyst
California Department of Justice
Bureau of Firearms
Training, Information, and Compliance Section

(916) 263 - 4868

Liberty1
05-19-2008, 5:13 PM
FUD RESPONSE FROM DOJ:

Please forward that e-mail to TMLLP? and The Calguns Foundation for their information.

Boxer
05-19-2008, 8:01 PM
I found Mr. George's answer direct and specific to my question. It was a pleasant surprise to receive such an answer and I hope that he continues to respond in the future.

It was difficult to understand the nature of the other member’s emails sent to him, but I hope they do not quash the direct line of communication provided by him. If this is the case I would not post future answers received from the DOJ for the benefit of the other members, which was the reason for the posting his email, not to open him up to a bashing. It is my sincere hopes that the emails sent him were misintterpitted by me and were warmly accepted by Mr. George.

I assume we would like to receive direct and specific responses from the DOJ to questions they can answer without concern for retribution in lieu of commendation for their responses. Most civil servants feel it is better to say nothing then they never say anything wrong. Mr. George stepped up to the plate and took a swing and hit a homerun.

It is my intention to carry a copy of Mr. George’s email in my truck should a LE question the way in which my firearm is transported with same. Perhaps a few other members also found his answer helpful as well.

MudCamper
05-19-2008, 9:21 PM
If these really are letters from the DOJ then it really is FUD. The second one smacks of the "58 DAs may believe otherwise" crap that was in the AW letters. Stating that loaded mag may equal loaded gun spits in the face of the California Court of Appeal. It ignores People v Clark. This person is spreading misinformation.

Boxer
05-19-2008, 9:32 PM
If these really are letters from the DOJ then it really is FUD. The second one smacks of the "58 DAs may believe otherwise" crap that was in the AW letters. Stating that loaded mag may equal loaded gun spits in the face of the California Court of Appeal. It ignores People v Clark. This person is spreading misinformation.

I think the DOJ said, the loaded must be in the vehicle with the magazine on their person, not just a loaded magazine in the car.

"This is in response to your recent correspondence to the Bureau of Firearms, regarding driving in a motor vehicle with an exposed firearm and ammunition on your person. Many jurisdictions in California are beginning to interpret the term "loaded firearm" to include a loaded magazine, or a person with ammunition on his or her person, in the same vehicle as an otherwise legally transported firearm for which that ammunition is designed. This is a matter of interpretation of state law by local jurisdictions, and as such a matter most appropriately addressed with the local district attorney's office."

Perhaps I misunderstand your post, just trying to clarify how I read the letter from the DOJ.

artherd
05-20-2008, 12:06 AM
Boxer, even if that were the case, he is still wrong.

Librarian
05-20-2008, 12:30 AM
Yes, Brent's reference to Many jurisdictions in California are beginning to interpret the term "loaded firearm" is indeed sowing FUD. That would be really poor agency training given People v Clark, and since that was a 1996 case, there's no excuse for that mistake in 2008. There's no longer much room for interpretation.

Decoligny
05-20-2008, 8:08 AM
If these really are letters from the DOJ then it really is FUD. The second one smacks of the "58 DAs may believe otherwise" crap that was in the AW letters. Stating that loaded mag may equal loaded gun spits in the face of the California Court of Appeal. It ignores People v Clark. This person is spreading misinformation.

My post was a direct cut and paste from the e-mail I received from DOJ. I have forwarded a copy of the e-mail to the CalGuns Foundations and to TMLLP with permission for them to use the e-mails for whatever purpose that they are legally allowed.

It seems to me that DOJ is trying their best to convince everyone who asks that the ONLY legal way to carry a concealable firearm in a vehicle is to comply completely with the exact conditions of the most restrictive "EXEMPTION" to 12025.

They also seem to be saying that many jurisdictions are interpreting State Law to mean that all law abiding citizens in possession of firearms in vehicles are to be treated as having the intent to commit a felony, or they are to be considered actively involved in Street Gang crimes.
See PC 12001(j) with PC 12023(a), and PC 12021.5(b).

They are spreading FUD

fairfaxjim
05-20-2008, 8:37 AM
If the DOJ knows that jurisdictions are improperly interpreting the PC regarding loaded firearms, it is their duty to correct that. That fact that they instead choose to spread it as "information" demonstrates clearly their total lack of integrety and comittment to their stated purpose.

Taken from DOJ BOF home page mission statement:
Bureau of Firearms staff will be leaders in providing firearms expertise and information to law enforcement, legislators, and the general public in a comprehensive program to promote legitimate and responsible firearms possession and use by California residents.

They have been on a FUD campaign that involves hiding behind the 58 CA DA's and various other agencies for a long time now. The evidence has shown that key members of that department are totally against civilian ownership of firearms and will subvert their positon and the law to further their agenda. Hopefully, recent changes there are a signal that things are about to turn around, but responses like the ones shown here don't seem to support that. Asking the DOJ for an honest and informed interpretation of CA gun laws is a waste of time. You are better off reading the laws, searching the appropriate case law, and becoming informed on your own.

Decoligny
05-20-2008, 9:59 AM
If the DOJ knows that jurisdictions are improperly interpreting the PC regarding loaded firearms, it is their duty to correct that. That fact that they instead choose to spread it as "information" demonstrates clearly their total lack of integrety and comittment to their stated purpose.



They have been on a FUD campaign that involves hiding behind the 58 CA DA's and various other agencies for a long time now. The evidence has shown that key members of that department are totally against civilian ownership of firearms and will subvert their positon and the law to further their agenda. Hopefully, recent changes there are a signal that things are about to turn around, but responses like the ones shown here don't seem to support that. Asking the DOJ for an honest and informed interpretation of CA gun laws is a waste of time. You are better off reading the laws, searching the appropriate case law, and becoming informed on your own.

I was already fully informed from my own research, as we all should be. Read the Penal Codes and the case law for yourselves.

I only sent the e-mail because I wanted to see just how screwed up of an answer I would get back from "the experts" on what should have been an very easy question to answer correctly.

Here is what I intend to send back to Mr. George, I look forward to his response.



Mr. George

I found the information you provided to be quite interesting. You stated “Many jurisdictions in California are beginning to interpret the term "loaded firearm" to include a loaded magazine, or a person with ammunition on his or her person, in the same vehicle as an otherwise legally transported firearm for which that ammunition is designed.”

Is the California Penal Code so amorphous that its meaning can change from one jurisdiction to the next? I thought it was the job of the DOJ and the Attorney General’s Office to determine for the ENTIRE State what the proper interpretation of the law is.

From your own mission statement: “Bureau of Firearms staff will be leaders in providing firearms expertise and information to law enforcement, legislators, and the general public in a comprehensive program to promote legitimate and responsible firearms possession and use by California residents.”

Could you please enlighten me as to why DOJ Bureau of Firearms has not provided information to the various jurisdictions that the California Penal Code in fact has specific definitions of when a firearm is considered loaded?

Having a firearm and ammunition for that firearm in the possession of the same person only makes the firearm loaded in two specific circumstances.

Circumstance One: When a person is carrying a firearm that is loaded per the definition in PC 12001(j) and has the intent to commit a felony per PC 12023(a).

Circumstance Two: When the person is in any of the areas listed in PC 171c or PC 171d.

The definition of “loaded firearm” in relation to a law abiding citizen is to be found in California Penal Code 12031(g):

“ A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.”

The definition of “concealed firearm” in relation to a law abiding citizen is to be found in California Penal Code 12025, and in subsection (f) it clearly states “Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

So, if a person were to be driving with a firearm in a belt holster (not concealed per PC12025(f)), and did not have ammunition attached to the firearm in any manner (not loaded per PC 120239(a)), and was not within 1,000 feet of a K-12 school or on the grounds of a University (PC 626.9) and was not driving within the State Capitol area (PC 171c), could you please tell me exactly how would they be violating ANY provision of the California Penal Code?

mrChiBai
05-20-2008, 11:23 AM
The Grant Boys usually has the Stay Out of Jail in CA. 2008 book at the check out counter for those of us in SoCal.

http://www.grantboys.com/

1750 Newport Blvd.
Costa Mesa, CA 92627

Thumbs down on grant boys. They only talk to a brown skinned person like myself if I ask for it. And I think all their stuff is over priced.

Librarian
05-20-2008, 12:24 PM
Here is what I intend to send back to Mr. George, I look forward to his response.

Nice letter. You might have given them the People v Clark definition that clarifies 12031(g), but good enough without, since you're talking about really obviously unloaded.

I predict the answer will be on the order of "the DOJ cannot give legal advice ..." (apparently not even to District Attorneys).

AG Brown seems to be keeping a low profile (http://caag.state.ca.us/newsalerts/index.php) these days. What he advertises is the responsibility of the AG, I guess, but does anyone know a way to encourage Jerry to accept the obvious leadership role his department should be taking in this area? Or is this more of a 'let sleeping dogs lie' situation?

Decoligny
05-21-2008, 9:12 PM
Nice letter. You might have given them the People v Clark definition that clarifies 12031(g), but good enough without, since you're talking about really obviously unloaded.

I predict the answer will be on the order of "the DOJ cannot give legal advice ..." (apparently not even to District Attorneys).

AG Brown seems to be keeping a low profile (http://caag.state.ca.us/newsalerts/index.php) these days. What he advertises is the responsibility of the AG, I guess, but does anyone know a way to encourage Jerry to accept the obvious leadership role his department should be taking in this area? Or is this more of a 'let sleeping dogs lie' situation?

:jump: WE HAVE A WINNER

Mr. XXXXXXX,

This is in response to your recent correspondence to the Bureau of Firearms, regarding your follow-up e-mail concerning the transportation of a concealable handgun in a motor vehicle. Bear in mind that I can only advise you of applicable Penal Code sections, and of how laws have been applied in the past (left up to District Attorneys to prosecute individual cases). Beyond this, I cannot engage in legal debate with you, nor can I offer you legal advice.
I hope this information is helpful to you. If you have any further questions or need further assistance, please contact the Bureau of Firearms at (916) 263 - 4887, or via e-mail.

Sincerely,

Brent George
Staff Services Analyst
California Department of Justice
Bureau of Firearms
Training, Information, and Compliance Section

(916) 263 - 4868

GuyW
05-22-2008, 2:28 PM
For whatever its worth, Brent Darryl George is a member of the CA Bar. Doesn't present himself as very competent, however.

Librarian
05-22-2008, 2:51 PM
For whatever its worth, Brent Darryl George is a member of the CA Bar. Doesn't present himself as very competent, however.I rather suspect he's doing what he has been instructed to do. That's primarily a matter of leadership failure, I think, not individual competence. It's unlikely that he's at a pay-grade that sets policy, so his answers have to deflect that kind of question. Over-stepping one's bounds can lead to Dire Consequences (TM).

It might be possible to wonder why one would continue to work in a leadership vacuum, but it may be this area of law is such a small part of his responsibility that he doesn't perceive it that way. I won't usually criticize a guy for wanting to keep his job.

(I've gotten decent answers over his email signature, to questions of a more concrete nature.)

GuyW
05-22-2008, 4:58 PM
I rather suspect he's doing what he has been instructed to do.....not individual competence....(I've gotten decent answers over his email signature, to questions of a more concrete nature.)

So we hypothesize that he's been instructed to give the public legal disinformation, such as, "...some LEOs interpret laws in irrational screwy ways"?

If the bar was any benefit to the public whatsoever, statements like that to the public by government lawyers would be grounds for censure....

mymonkeyman
05-22-2008, 5:01 PM
So we hypothesize that he's been instructed to give the public legal disinformation, such as, "...some LEOs interpret laws in irrational screwy ways"?

If the bar was any benefit to the public whatsoever, statements like that to the public by government lawyers would be grounds for censure....

If you think an attorney has violated their legal ethics obligation, file a complaint with the state bar.

Mikeb
05-22-2008, 5:25 PM
Yeah it still leaves me wondering about a loaded magazine.
I've had an Oakland Police Officer tell me I could have a handgun in a briefcase and magazines on my belt. That may have been 10 years ago. This is one of the places that CA gun law seems quite vague. If that is no longer how they see it, where do you put the ammo?
Mikeb

Decoligny
05-22-2008, 9:30 PM
Well, Since the Department of Justice, Bureau of Firearms feels that this matter is most appropriately addressed by the local Distric Attorney's Office, and since I may be faced with this situation in any of the counties that I might happen to find myself, then I must address the following to each and every one of the 58 DAs in California.

This is draft #1. Any comments or corrections/additions would be greatly appreciated.



To __________County District Attorney:

I recently contacted the Department of Justice, Bureau of Firearms with a question, and was advised that this matter would be most appropriately addressed by the District Attorney’s Office.

Question: If a law abiding citizen were to be legally driving a motor vehicle, with a firearm for which they are the registered owner, openly carried in a belt holster (not concealed per PC12025(f)), and had the ammunition for that firearm in his/her immediate possession, but did not have said ammunition attached to the firearm in any manner (not loaded per PC 12023(g)), and was not knowingly driving within 1,000 feet of a K-12 school (PC 626.9), and was not driving within the State Capitol area (PC 171c), would that person be committing any violation of California Penal Code?

My concern is this, I do not want to misinterpret the Penal Codes. The DOJ Bureau of Firearms will not answer my specific questions. The attorneys I have contacted are not willing to answer the questions, but are more than willing to take my money should I have to defend against actual criminal charges. If you cannot answer my specific question, then how is an average law abiding citizen supposed to completely and legally exercise his 2nd Amendment rights to the fullest extent possible within the law, and avoid being arrested and prosecuted?

If as noted in the attached reply from DOJ Bureau of Firearms, “Many jurisdictions in California are beginning to interpret the term "loaded firearm" to include a loaded magazine, or a person with ammunition on his or her person, in the same vehicle as an otherwise legally transported firearm for which that ammunition is designed”, and no criminal activity has occurred, when the appropriate definition of “loaded firearm” (Penal Code 12031(g)) should be used, it would appear to me that the “many jurisdictions” are not trying to enforce the law, but are rather imposing their own view that no one but Law Enforcement should be allowed to carry a firearm, thus “discouraging” law abiding citizen’s from carrying firearms by the implied consequence of having to expend a large amount of time and money to defend one’s self from criminal prosecution for charges that fall under “the color of law”.

Attached: E-mails to and from DOJ:



INSERT COPY OF E-MAIL TRAFFIC HERE



Various Definitions of Loaded Firearm from California Penal Code:

Penal Code 171e. A firearm shall be deemed loaded for the purposes of Sections 171c and 171d whenever both the firearm and unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from such firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person.

Penal Code 626.9(j) For purposes of this section, a firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm. A muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

Penal Code 12001(j) defines a loaded firearm as: For Section 12023, a firearm shall be deemed to be "loaded" whenever both the firearm and the unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from the firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person. Penal Code 12023. (a) Every person who carries a loaded firearm with the intent to commit a felony is guilty of armed criminal action. (b) Armed criminal action is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or in the state prison.

Penal Code 12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:
(6) By imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment if both of the following conditions are met:
(A) Both the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person and the unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from that firearm are either in the immediate possession of the person or readily accessible to that person, or the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person is loaded as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12031.
(B) The person is not listed with the Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 11106, as the registered owner of that pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

Penal Code 12031(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

Penal Code 12031(g) is the definition that most aptly applies to law abiding citizens. This is the definition for someone who is not intent upon committing a felony, not involved in street gang crimes, not in a school zone, and not on the Capitol grounds.

I anticipate your prompt reply

Decoligny

Librarian
05-22-2008, 10:16 PM
This one could use the People v Clark definition:

"In People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99, the court uses this language to define 'loaded'
The term "loaded" has a commonly understood meaning: "to put a load or charge in (a device or piece of equipment) a gun" or "to put a load on or in a carrier, device, or container; esp: to insert the charge or cartridge into the chamber of a firearm." (Webster's New Collegiate Dict. (1976) p. 674.) Under the commonly understood meaning of the term "loaded," a firearm is "loaded" when a shell or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be fired...

Our conclusion that the Legislature intended "loaded" as used in Penal Code section 12031 to reflect the common definition is supported by the court in People v. Heffner (1977) 70 Cal.App.3d 643, 650 [139 Cal.Rptr. 45], which reached the same conclusion ("the apparent purpose [of the 'loaded' definition] is to make it clear that for purpose of section 12031 the usual meaning of 'loaded firearm' is to apply.")

Mikeb
05-22-2008, 10:47 PM
Penal Code 12031(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.


O I hate that. sounds like your best defence is to carry a muzzle loading pistol and caps in your pocket...at least you don't need the locked container... OR does it mean if the magazine is not attached to the gun, it can have bullets in it, and you can have the gun in a briefcase. I guess it is not by accedent I am not a lawyer.
take care
Mike

MudCamper
05-23-2008, 7:57 AM
... Penal Code 12031(g) is the definition that most aptly applies to law abiding citizens. This is the definition for someone who is not intent upon committing a felony, not involved in street gang crimes, not in a school zone, and not on the Capitol grounds.


You did not include 12021.5 in your list of definitions, although you mention gangs in your last paragraph. Did you intend to include it?

Decoligny
05-23-2008, 9:51 AM
You did not include 12021.5 in your list of definitions, although you mention gangs in your last paragraph. Did you intend to include it?

While 12021.5 does mention "loaded or unloaded firearm" and has a section with lots of realted definitions, it does not contain a specific definition of "loaded firearm".

The definitions listed for "loaded firearm" show every single definition listed in the Penal Code specifically for "loaded firearm".

Decoligny
05-23-2008, 9:53 AM
This one could use the People v Clark definition:

"In People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99, the court uses this language to define 'loaded'
The term "loaded" has a commonly understood meaning: "to put a load or charge in (a device or piece of equipment) a gun" or "to put a load on or in a carrier, device, or container; esp: to insert the charge or cartridge into the chamber of a firearm." (Webster's New Collegiate Dict. (1976) p. 674.) Under the commonly understood meaning of the term "loaded," a firearm is "loaded" when a shell or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be fired...

Our conclusion that the Legislature intended "loaded" as used in Penal Code section 12031 to reflect the common definition is supported by the court in People v. Heffner (1977) 70 Cal.App.3d 643, 650 [139 Cal.Rptr. 45], which reached the same conclusion ("the apparent purpose [of the 'loaded' definition] is to make it clear that for purpose of section 12031 the usual meaning of 'loaded firearm' is to apply.")

Yes, this is definitely going to be included in the text. Thanks.

jdicesare
01-09-2010, 9:09 PM
The vault should not be considered a compartment because it is not "permanently" fixed to the vehicle. It is a "portable" carrying device (with a handle) that merely locks down for anti-theft. As for whether or not it is visible that should not matter because the concealment law applies to a hand gun not a storage device; furthermore, the law specifically exempts concealment of a firearm in a lock box. Yes a locked loaded magazine should be legal so long as it IS NOT IN THE GUN MAGAZINE WELL IN A READY FIRING POSITION. Don't have one yet but I intend to buy one; a little bit much I hope the price goes down.

I am not an attorney; not legal advice.

Sinixstar
01-10-2010, 12:01 AM
Last time I read about this - it was *fairly* simple.

Locked container, separate from the passenger compartment. (ie - the trunk).
If there was no area of the vehicle that was not separate from the passenger compartment, it must be in a place that is not directly accessible to the driver.

My understanding is - if you can easily reach it from where you're sitting, it's a no no, locked or not.

tombinghamthegreat
01-10-2010, 12:46 AM
My understanding is - if you can easily reach it from where you're sitting, it's a no no, locked or not.

FUD. You can have a handgun with ammo/loaded mags in a backpack between your legs with a cheap lock since it would not violate PC12025 since it is a locked container. It is not illegal for a unloaded handgun with the loaded mags right next to the gun to be in plain sight to be sitting right next to you since it would be complaince with people vs clark and PC12031. For long guns no requirements for locking since long guns are considered non concealable. The exception to this is the k-12 schhol gun free zone which all guns has to be in a locked container, or for long guns a locking gun rack.

Liberty1
01-10-2010, 6:48 AM
Holy necrothread! That brings back some memories! Boy was I cantankerous back in my youth:D

Last time I read about this - it was *fairly* simple.


My understanding is - if you can easily reach it from where you're sitting, it's a no no, locked or not.

No fair you need to read the whole thread before spouting FUD ;)

glockwise2000
01-10-2010, 9:14 AM
I would not mount the vault on your car/excursion. You are creating a compartment that is now a part of the car. It doesn't mention in the law how far you can have a locked HG in your car, so having a locked HG in your lap would be okay, I think.

Meplat
01-10-2010, 10:04 AM
Might as well just open carry:chris:

GFSZ drama.:(

Kid Stanislaus
01-10-2010, 2:42 PM
And we all know that what the Sheriff says just absolutely has to be the law, the complete law and nothing but the law.


Hey man they're the ONLY ONES who know what the law is, the ONLY ONES PROFESSIONAL ENOUGH!

bigcalidave
01-10-2010, 3:11 PM
I would not mount the vault on your car/excursion. You are creating a compartment that is now a part of the car. It doesn't mention in the law how far you can have a locked HG in your car, so having a locked HG in your lap would be okay, I think.

Did you read this two year old thread? Where does it say that again?


Geez, this one is old AND had a great troll... Whatever happened to "new"

Kid Stanislaus
01-10-2010, 3:30 PM
You are all wrong. All guns are illegal to transport. BB guns, rubber band guns, water pistols. You all will go to jail.

FINALLY! After wading through 8 pages of pure gibberish we get a clear cut, definitive answer!!:D

packnrat
01-10-2010, 11:10 PM
There is a magazine container that hooks to the (non hinged) edge of this vault. The lid of that container locks under the lid of the Titan vault and springs open when the Titan vault is opened.

Can a loaded magazine be kept in that locked acessories container that is locked via the Titian vault. The additional container is a protoype and is a special order right now. Does this complicate things?

Both items are in open view behind the seat in the center.

the loaded mags can be in the same locked case as the gun. no other is needed.

just no ammo IN the gun.

johnny_22
01-11-2010, 6:54 AM
The December 2009 issue of Shooting Illustrated has a Locked-Unloaded Concealed Carry Article written by someone from Southern California. It has some very good suggestions on stealth carry for the office.

paul0660
01-11-2010, 6:59 AM
You are creating a compartment that is now a part of the car.

CalCCW fud.

Decoligny
01-11-2010, 7:11 AM
ZOMBIE THREAD - - - -WANT TO EAT YOUR BRAINS.

http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/zombie.jpg

Phillips
10-09-2010, 8:18 PM
as if there wasnt enough questions regarding this thread. i have one more twist to add. i have the titan gun vault with the magazine compartment. i want to install it under the front bench seat. i want only the front portion of the vault to be accesable. in order to do this i will have to modify the frame of the seat. will this affect any legal issues?

Rossi357
10-09-2010, 8:33 PM
I would not mount the vault on your car/excursion. You are creating a compartment that is now a part of the car. It doesn't mention in the law how far you can have a locked HG in your car, so having a locked HG in your lap would be okay, I think.

I duct tape mine on top my head.

bluerider
10-10-2010, 11:26 AM
If I were to own a hand gun prior to when it was required that they be registered it would still be legal for me to own that gun without registering it. Now for the question part: Would that gun be considered an unregisterd gun and I would only be allowed to transport it directly to the range and back? Not to be confused with the Guns I have purchased since they have been required to be registersd which I can have at any time or any where in my vehichle as long as they are in a locked container.

CalNRA
10-10-2010, 11:57 AM
Out of arms reach. Thats what the sheriff here says

there is a thread in off topic where a guy got a traffic ticket and the patrolwoman couldn't even tell him for which VC section he was being cited.

Munk
10-10-2010, 12:29 PM
there is a thread in off topic where a guy got a traffic ticket and the patrolwoman couldn't even tell him for which VC section he was being cited.


Then he didn't get a ticket. For a ticket to be valid, it has to cite the appropriate PC or VC. Hello courtdate, goodbye ticket.


To the OP, as others have said... If the gun is in a locked container, and is unloaded, then you are legally good to go. you may even have loaded magazines NEXT to but not WITHIN the firearm.

As far as it being attached to the vehicle and thus being considered PART OF the vehicle.... i think someone will wind up making some caselaw for that. If you're worried about being that guy, you can either: Cable/Chain it to a fixed part of the vehicle (if you want to keep the container from being stolen), or you can use a magnet like the ones for securing a HD shotgun (http://www.thehomesecuritysuperstore.com/quick-draw-gun-magnet-p=2678). (should be strong enough to prevent sliding around).

Or you can just ride with the locked container in your lap. since at that point there's no way it can be considered to be part of the vehicle, and it meets all the legal requirements for being locked and unloaded.

Phillips
10-10-2010, 12:59 PM
What happens if the Leo asks you to open the locked container?

Paul S
10-10-2010, 1:40 PM
Zombie thread from April of '08 :p

chris
10-10-2010, 2:31 PM
Sadly LE often know very little about the law.

sadly that is very true.

pullnshoot25
10-10-2010, 3:16 PM
What happens if the Leo asks you to open the locked container?

You tell him to piss off and get a warrant.

This container issue is answered in the FAQ that is in my sig line.

E Pluribus Unum
10-11-2010, 8:36 AM
Preferably, not so close that it perforates the skin. That is very uncomfortable, but still legal.

monkeshine
10-11-2010, 5:35 PM
Per CHP..."Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well..."


Is that true? I was always under the belief that the ammunition could not be in the same locked container as the unloaded weapon. In other words, gun case holds unloaded gun. Ammunition outside the case at least or in a separate compartment.

If a loaded magazine can be in the same container, just not in the gun itself (or, a couple of ready to go speed loaders in the case next to the empty unloaded handgun), then I am going to go buy some more guns :43:

Librarian
10-11-2010, 5:36 PM
Is that true? I was always under the belief that the ammunition could not be in the locked container.

If it can be in the same container, just unlocked, then I am going to go buy some more guns :43:

Quite a common misconception, but no law supporting it.

Buy more guns...

E Pluribus Unum
10-11-2010, 9:18 PM
Is that true? I was always under the belief that the ammunition could not be in the same locked container as the unloaded weapon. In other words, gun case holds unloaded gun. Ammunition outside the case at least or in a separate compartment.

If a loaded magazine can be in the same container, just not in the gun itself (or, a couple of ready to go speed loaders in the case next to the empty unloaded handgun), then I am going to go buy some more guns :43:

Nope... read People v. Clark.

In that case, the guy had a shotgun with ammo physically attached to the shotgun butt and it was ruled unloaded.

Per People v. Clark, in order for a weapon to be loaded in Incorporated areas (like cities) or prohibited areas where discharge of a firearm is prohibited (like paved roads) loaded means "ammunition placed into a position from which it can be fired." This means, ammo in the magazine AND the magazine in the gun, or a round in the chamber. Anything else is unloaded.

In unincorporated areas and where discharge of a firearm is legal, loaded means a round in the chamber. In your vehicle, you can legally carry a loaded magazine in the gun, and as long as there is not a round in the chamber, it's unloaded. (Fish and Game Code 2006). Again, this ONLY applies to unincorporated territory where discharge of a firearm is legal which excludes all roadways.

Homebrew2
10-12-2010, 12:33 PM
I believe, in People v. Knight, the court ruled that 12031(a)(1) effectively says that it is legal to carry a loaded firearm in an unincorporated area whether in a public place or not, or upon a public street or not, as long as that unincorporated area is not a "prohibited" area.
I'm not finding any references to F&G code applying to anyone unless they are engaged in hunting, fishing, taking or possession of wildlife, etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

curtisfong
10-12-2010, 12:40 PM
Answer to OP

16.163×10^−36 meters

E Pluribus Unum
10-12-2010, 12:50 PM
I believe, in People v. Knight, the court ruled that 12031(a)(1) effectively says that it is legal to carry a loaded firearm in an unincorporated area whether in a public place or not, or upon a public street or not, as long as that unincorporated area is not a "prohibited" area.
I'm not finding any references to F&G code applying to anyone unless they are engaged in hunting, fishing, taking or possession of wildlife, etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It is a common misconception that the Fish and Game Code only applies to hunting and fishing, this is incorrect. It applies all the time.

Fish and Game Code section 2006 is the code that requires rifles and shotguns to be unloaded, but this does not apply to handguns, and it only applies in a vehicle.

So, because of Fish and Game Code 2006, it is illegal to carry a rifle or shotgun in a vehicle with a round in the chamber. This applies anytime anywhere. There are exceptions of course, but not for the common person.