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CA_Libertarian
04-13-2008, 2:21 PM
OK, now that I have your attention... nobody was hurt, harassed, or arrested last night. It was just like the 100s of times I've open carried around the central valley... only more north-ish... and more fun!

We had a table for 15, but had three last-minute cancellations. Of the 12 that were in attendance for this historical event, 7 were openly armed. We had guests from all over the state, from LA to the Oregon border. I'm grateful to everyone that made the trip; it was well worth it!

We spent a solid three hours at the Outback Steakhouse on Howe Ave, including sitting around on their porch waiting for everyone to show up. Nobody ran in fear, the police didn't show up (probably because nobody summoned them), and we weren't refused service. We just ate, had a good time, and talked a little current events and politics.

Just like I experience at least once a week here in the Central Valley, this dinner was just another normal day... as it should be. The message: normal people carry guns, and don't feel the need to ask permission or hide them! I thank every person that showed up, carrying or not, for showing their support.

This forum isn't as friendly with the attachments, so if you wanna see pictures you'll have to check them out on OpenCarry.org (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/9588-1.html)

bohoki
04-13-2008, 2:38 PM
you are now on my subject title liar list future posts will be ignored

bwiese
04-13-2008, 2:39 PM
Poor post, please edit title. We have enough real-world worries that we don't need to be prodded with false alerts.

Matt C
04-13-2008, 2:43 PM
That's irritating.

USN CHIEF
04-13-2008, 2:55 PM
IBTL... Please edit tittle, very missleading...

Lateralus
04-13-2008, 2:57 PM
:ban:

Liberty1
04-13-2008, 3:04 PM
I'm all for some tongue-n-cheek humor but....many will just see the title and not our posts...so...;)

But to all who do read here please come out to the next one when announced. You will find it a liberating experience!:)

ptoguy2002
04-13-2008, 3:11 PM
Kinda like yelling "FIRE"!

tombinghamthegreat
04-13-2008, 3:28 PM
change the title

gidddy169
04-13-2008, 3:29 PM
Don't like the title either. Although I am said I missed out on it. I was down there this weekend taking the Professional Engineers Exam and would have gladly carried and sat with you. Oh well maybe next time. I did go to Outback and noticed it was crowded and went to Red Lobster instead.

Ballistic043
04-13-2008, 3:33 PM
so anyways,

good job on the open carry. nice to hear things went smoothly

CombatMP
04-13-2008, 3:48 PM
:eek::eek::eek:

Two Shots
04-13-2008, 4:06 PM
Change the title. It raised my blood pressure to the P---offed area till I read the rest. But A+ to you and the rest at the Outback get together.

Paladin
04-13-2008, 4:20 PM
Poor post, please edit title. We have enough real-world worries that we don't need to be prodded with false alerts.Totally agree.

CA_Libertarian, just use a title like, "NorCal Unloaded Open Carry Dinner Went Great!" Everyone you want to read the thread would still read it, no false rumors would be spread, and your reputation on this forum would not be damaged.

JMO

Anyway, glad to hear everything went smoothly.

PolishMike
04-13-2008, 4:23 PM
keep the title :)

Fjold
04-13-2008, 5:07 PM
And it's a dupe.

Other people with better taste have already posted on this subject.

Dont Tread on Me
04-13-2008, 5:20 PM
+1 on the title change.

Kestryll
04-13-2008, 5:38 PM
Title has been changed.
There is a reason there is a parable called 'the boy who cried wolf.'

CA_Libertarian
04-13-2008, 7:33 PM
Kinda like yelling "FIRE"!

Not at all, really. I doubt anybody was put in physical danger or got trampled, injured, or killed.

(Please don't take this as a personal attack; I don't do the while flame war thing. Rest assured that I am aware you're not the only one that didn't enjoy my humor, and you're not the only one that responded in an exaggerated way. Yours was just the easiest one to pick apart.)

To those that were upset by my joke, I apologize. Maybe you should get a sense of humor, buy some Rogaine, and take a pill for your ulcer. Life is too short to let every little thing get to you. Really, it's not like I don't reveal my joke in the first sentence of my post. Then I could see you getting upset.

To those that did appreciate the joke, thank you. You'll outlive the people who got all upset at the joke, so rest easy and have a good laugh.

Sorry I missed that someone else posted about this already, I looked around for 20 minutes and didn't see anything about it. Kinda ruins the joke if you already knew it went of without a hitch...

Thanks to those of you who can give constructive criticism without exaggeration and name-calling. I still disagree with you, but at least I can respect you.

To the moderators: thanks for the censorship. Now I remember why I don't come to this forum very often. I honestly had forgotten.

hoffmang
04-13-2008, 8:39 PM
I love the enthusiasm, but realize that for some of us, your title means we have to change family plans and start making phone calls...

That said, I'm glad it went well and congrats.

-Gene

s2000news
04-13-2008, 9:03 PM
Although I didn't see the title, I can guess with the reaction you have here, it wasn't exactly a question of 'humor' but judgement.

Just guessing, as I don't know what it was. Someone PM me so I get the reactions meaning? :)

Glad all went well. +1 for your dinner.

+1 for the TOS. Freedom of speach is **** on a forum. You have more rights off a forum than on. :eek:

tygerpaw
04-13-2008, 9:12 PM
I missed the title......what was it?

It is wise to be careful how we say things on this forum though.

Liberty1
04-13-2008, 9:20 PM
"open carry dinner results in arrests" or sum such and the OP was the same:chris:

I imagine Don Perata reading these OC threads and going :kest: :)

gotgunz
04-13-2008, 10:20 PM
The picture posted shows several men carrying guns (unloaded ones at that :rolleyes:) to the normal person you all could have been percieved as LEO based on the fact that you are all clean cut, for the most part (I didnt analyze the photo that closely), and professional appearing.

I have loosely read the open carry threads and I have a few questions:

1. what do you intend to accomplish?

2. Why not just get a CCW?

3. Why would you do something that could attract potentially unwanted attention to yourself?

4. Why period?

:rolleyes:

Shotgun Man
04-13-2008, 10:38 PM
I have loosely read the open carry threads and I have a few questions:

1. what do you intend to accomplish?

2. Why not just get a CCW?

3. Why would you do something that could attract potentially unwanted attention to yourself?

4. Why period?

:rolleyes:

You gotta be kidding. They're accomplishing great things, much more than you and I no matter what we're doing.

A CCW is a mere pipe dream for even the most deserving citizens.

Attracting attention to himself? He's publicly demonstrating his RKBA.

Dont Tread on Me
04-13-2008, 10:38 PM
2. Why not just get a CCW?


Because I'm not a judge, celebrity or diamond merchant. That is who my PD things CCW permits are for:

http://www.ci.mtnview.ca.us/city_hall/police/crime_prevention/weapons.asp
In California, concealed weapons permits are primarily for security guards and people with jobs with a high risk for violence, such as judges, celebrities or diamond merchants. These permits must be approved by the police chief or county sheriff. For more information, contact: email • 650/903-6344.

Notice that they link to Brady for more info on gun safety.

M. Sage
04-13-2008, 10:48 PM
To the moderators: thanks for the censorship. Now I remember why I don't come to this forum very often. I honestly had forgotten.

I didn't see the original title, but based on the reactions have a pretty good idea what it was about.

There are people on here who take steps to help others out when they get into bad situations they shouldn't be in (take BWO for example). They do it because they honestly care about the cause.

IMO, it's disrespectful to these people to make jokes at their expense. They've helped us all immensely, and continue to do so. The least we can do is save them a little bit of stress in their day.

Liberty1
04-13-2008, 11:53 PM
The picture posted shows several men carrying guns (unloaded ones at that :rolleyes:) to the normal person you all could have been percieved as LEO based on the fact that you are all clean cut, for the most part (I didnt analyze the photo that closely), and professional appearing.

I have loosely read the open carry threads and I have a few questions:

1. what do you intend to accomplish?

2. Why not just get a CCW?

3. Why would you do something that could attract potentially unwanted attention to yourself?

4. Why period?

:rolleyes:

enjoy http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum6/8794.html

gotgunz
04-14-2008, 12:52 AM
You gotta be kidding. They're accomplishing great things, much more than you and I no matter what we're doing.

Ugh, like what? :confused:


A CCW is a mere pipe dream for even the most deserving citizens.

I understand that depends on where you live, so I would guess that makes me more than "most deserving"?



Attracting attention to himself? He's publicly demonstrating his RKBA.

Yes, attracting attention... I understand the RKBA thing but face it; it's an attention getter.

Reminds me of the kids that clothespinned a playing card to their bicycles to simulate the noise a motorcycle makes.

I don't fault them for standing up for something they believe in but it sure seems foolish to me that even though legal it could cause problems.
I'll back you up at the next event in case anybody tries to start something with you; I'm already cocked and locked :rolleyes:

IMHO

gotgunz
04-14-2008, 12:54 AM
Because I'm not a judge, celebrity or diamond merchant.


What a coincidence; neither am I !!!!

Nor am I a retired police officer, DEA, FBI, P.I., security guard (that one made me laugh), bodyguard, secret service, etc.....

Hell I sell tires for christ sake (although I sell alot of them)!

:rolleyes:

ivanimal
04-14-2008, 1:07 AM
To the moderators: thanks for the censorship. Now I remember why I don't come to this forum very often. I honestly had forgotten.


And this makes me mad how?:rolleyes:

CCWFacts
04-14-2008, 1:09 AM
BlackedOutHarley, great, you live in a county where you can get a CCW with your GC. All counties should be like that. However... I would bet that your county is not SF, or Santa Cruz or LA. No matter what your GC happens to be, you would not have a CCW if your residence were in SF, or Santa Cruz, or LA, etc. In fact, in SF, there is no GC that can result in a CCW being issued. Only a few government employees, and the absolute top top most powerful people there can possibly get them.

gotgunz
04-14-2008, 1:17 AM
BlackedOutHarley, great, you live in a county where you can get a CCW with your GC. I would bet that, no matter what your GC happens to be, you would not have a CCW if your residence were in SF, or Santa Cruz, or LA, etc. In fact, in SF, there is no GC that can result in a CCW being issued. Only a few government employees, and the absolute top top most powerful people there can possibly get them.

I don't disagree with you on this one at all... just another reason not to live in any of those areas.

What I fail to understand is what is the end result they hope to accomplish by walking around Sacramento (and elsewhere) with an unloaded gun on their hip.......

Other than possibly attracting attention, that could be unwanted, to themselves.

gotgunz
04-14-2008, 1:20 AM
And this makes me mad how?:rolleyes:

Because rumor has it that he has a large collection of (insert Ivan's flavor of the week here) and is selling them at ridiculously low prices; in fact he is basically paying people to take them. :D

I heard that he has every Colt revolver made and a complete set of every concievable version you can do of SMOLTS! :eek:

Way to go there buddy! :D

ivanimal
04-14-2008, 1:22 AM
Because rumor has it that he has a large collection of (insert Ivan's flavor of the week here) and is selling them at ridiculously low prices; in fact he is basically paying people to take them. :D

I heard that he has every Colt revolver made and a complete set of every concievable version you can do of SMOLTS! :eek:

Way to go there buddy! :D


OK I take it back!:43:

Liberty1
04-14-2008, 8:08 AM
Now I remember why I don't come to this forum very often. I honestly had forgotten.

Big D,

Stick around. This place is plenty BIG and you'll find lots of support for your/our kind of activism. Good things do happen here. We all get at times "knocked around" a little here as there is a wide range of diversity and tastes present. Calguns is a true melting pot for firearms/self-defense/political interests. Just always get back up, dust yourself off, and keep pushing in a productive direction for what you believe in and you'll find you do have friends here. Even to the point of backing falsely arrested members with $$$$$ and political capital!

Liberty1
04-14-2008, 8:45 AM
The picture posted shows several men carrying guns (unloaded ones at that :rolleyes:) to the normal person you all could have been percieved as LEO based on the fact that you are all clean cut, for the most part (I didnt analyze the photo that closely), and professional appearing.

I have loosely read the open carry threads and I have a few questions:

1. what do you intend to accomplish?

2. Why not just get a CCW?

3. Why would you do something that could attract potentially unwanted attention to yourself?

4. Why period?

:rolleyes:

1) To prove, document, etc... that the peaceful bearing of arms openly doesn't "cause" alarm, panic police responses, and "face meeting concrete" episodes. And to educate LEOs and the public of this Right through meet ups, press and news articles, and lobbying.

2) States generally have made illegal and then exempted through permission slips (12050 LTCs) the carrying of arms concealed by regulating this privilege, through fees (taxation), fingerprinting(providing evidence against yourself), and making you prove first you are innocent (records check), and other administrative delaying processes, which even if not intended, have a discouraging effect on self defense gun carry generally and a disastorus effect for those who need protection YESTERDAY from a violent x-spouse, or other assailent who doesn't give enough warning for one to apply and get a 12050 LTC.

The default of that, if bearing arms is as we claim an individual Right, is that open carry is the method of exercising that right; free from interference and the regulation generally attached to a privilege given or taken away by a simple legislative 50%+ majority or whim of a Sheriff.

Rights are better protected then that, with at least 2/3s being needed and a complicated national ratification process to grant further powers to government.

Some of us can and do carry concealed and do or have had a ccw or other permission slip. Hiding a privilege doesn't help protect a right (but this Right does protect your privilage-see Ohio's journey to CCW). A right which is so fundamental, it has been described as the Protector of all other rights. A right retained by the colonists which aided in the Revolution that established this very Nation.

It is a right which has been on its death bed in this state for many years and is in need of resuscitation. As we say, "A right unexercised is a right lost" and we don't want to see that happen.

3) In any political activism, there is a risk to self; professional, personal, and even legal. We accept that risk as others have in the past accepted much greater risks while pledging their "Lives, Fortunes, and Sacred Honor" for the betterment of their fellow man.

4) It was fun, successful and hopefully will inspire others to enjoy what part of the right exists in Ca and agitate for expansion of that right. Yes, an unloaded firearm in a city where one is most likely to need it loaded, is almost a why bother situation but could still create a safer environment (3-5 seconds from loaded) And we would welcome your locked and loaded yet concealed company anytime as we are not Open Carry snobs or at least hope we're not!:).

We wish to obey the law and yet show the ridiculousness of the laws which have NO effect on crime and put the people at risk. We did it (OC in public) peacefully, respectfully, and we sincerely hope to begin to effect the anti-self defense environment in CA.

The goal is the repeal of PC 12031 & 12025 (shall issue would be ok) and a less safe environment for the criminal thugs who prey upon the public and whom the State is unable to stop!

RANGER295
04-14-2008, 12:38 PM
Not at all, really. I doubt anybody was put in physical danger or got trampled, injured, or killed.

(Please don't take this as a personal attack; I don't do the while flame war thing. Rest assured that I am aware you're not the only one that didn't enjoy my humor, and you're not the only one that responded in an exaggerated way. Yours was just the easiest one to pick apart.)

To those that were upset by my joke, I apologize. Maybe you should get a sense of humor, buy some Rogaine, and take a pill for your ulcer. Life is too short to let every little thing get to you. Really, it's not like I don't reveal my joke in the first sentence of my post. Then I could see you getting upset.

To those that did appreciate the joke, thank you. You'll outlive the people who got all upset at the joke, so rest easy and have a good laugh.

Sorry I missed that someone else posted about this already, I looked around for 20 minutes and didn't see anything about it. Kinda ruins the joke if you already knew it went of without a hitch...

Thanks to those of you who can give constructive criticism without exaggeration and name-calling. I still disagree with you, but at least I can respect you.

To the moderators: thanks for the censorship. Now I remember why I don't come to this forum very often. I honestly had forgotten.

I tend to agree with the mods on this one. I didnít catch the original title but I saw what Liberty1 quoted. I think that what you guys did was a good thing. Overdramatizing things like that take away from the topic. I think that the mods are pretty reasonable most of the time and they give ample chances when people screw up.

I have tried to explain this to some people but they just donít get it. There are certain things that we just have to bite our tongs on for the good of our cause. We are a very diverse group but are united by a common goal.

Ironchef
04-14-2008, 12:50 PM
Where was the OC dinner party? I would have liked to have gone.

CCWFacts
04-14-2008, 1:36 PM
I don't disagree with you on this one at all... just another reason not to live in any of those areas.

You're lucky. We need to replace a dozen or so sheriffs in this state: Baca, Hennessey, etc.

What I fail to understand is what is the end result they hope to accomplish by walking around Sacramento (and elsewhere) with an unloaded gun on their hip.......

I'm not in the open carry club so I can't answer, but I would guess it's because an open exercise of a right is a form of defending the right, and some of them are frustrated because they can't get CCWs. I myself won't do it. That could change if Heller finds that open, loaded carry is a protected right (and gets rid of all the traps in it like school zones). If loaded OC is a protected right, and my chief and sheriff won't issue me a permit, then I'll OC. But that depends on Heller and a few Heller follow up cases.

Hopi
04-14-2008, 1:40 PM
an open exercise of a right is a form of defending the right

This bears repeating. If you don't use your legs, you will soon lose their strength.

CA_Libertarian
04-17-2008, 9:41 PM
Big D,

Stick around. This place is plenty BIG and you'll find lots of support for your/our kind of activism. Good things do happen here. We all get at times "knocked around" a little here as there is a wide range of diversity and tastes present. Calguns is a true melting pot for firearms/self-defense/political interests. Just always get back up, dust yourself off, and keep pushing in a productive direction for what you believe in and you'll find you do have friends here. Even to the point of backing falsely arrested members with $$$$$ and political capital!

I suppose the censorship here is about the same as on OCDO. Only there the mods pretty much ignore the CA section of the site. Notice I have given up posting anywhere else. I'll check in once and a while and see what's going on here. Not because I want anything from anybody, but because I do think that, petty bickering aside, we are all working toward the same goal.

hoffmang
04-17-2008, 9:49 PM
Not because I want anything from anybody, but because I do think that, petty bickering aside, we are all working toward the same goal.

First, welcome - this is a big tent.

Second, Just because we want you to have some gravitas here doesn't mean that we are questioning the seriousness of what you are up to. Being misleading for all the right reasons - I think a lot of us can understand that. However, here - you can be very straight about what you're doing and you will still receive the respect and credit that those risks deserve.

It's not censorship. It's an honest attempt to take all the risks and costs a whole lot of us take on and make them serious and real.

Please take a deep breath and don't overreact to the minor edit of your title - not your content.

-Gene

CA_Libertarian
04-17-2008, 9:55 PM
+1 for the TOS. Freedom of speach is **** on a forum. You have more rights off a forum than on. :eek:

I'm always amused by this bit of 'wisdom' that is always tossed out when someone complains of censorship on a forum. Consider this:

A business is private property, which is open to the public - much like this forum. Does this give the business owner the right to walk around his property and tell all his 'visitors' what to do, when to talk, and what they may (not) say? Absolutely. Does that mean it is appropriate for that property owner to micromanage his guests' behavior? I don't think so.

CA_Libertarian
04-17-2008, 9:58 PM
Where was the OC dinner party? I would have liked to have gone.

In Sacramento; I posted about it here, but threads seem to fall off pretty fast here. Sorry you missed it. Stay tuned, as we will probably be having another meeting later this year.

hoffmang
04-17-2008, 10:02 PM
A business is private property, which is open to the public - much like this forum. Does this give the business owner the right to walk around his property and tell all his 'visitors' what to do, when to talk, and what they may (not) say? Absolutely. Does that mean it is appropriate for that property owner to micromanage his guests' behavior? I don't think so.

So Lib,

When can I come over and call your wife/girlfriend/sibling a nasty name in your house?

Are you willing to admit that civility has it's place?

-Gene

oaklander
04-17-2008, 10:03 PM
You can pretty much say anything you want here, as long as it's not insulting to other members, libelous, etc..

But there are some things that the mods watch for. I think the original title of the post was misleading. . . That's not good. It confuses people.

There are some other things the mods watch for as well. For example, we know that the DOJ and other LE agencies, not to mention the gun grabbers, read this site on a regular basis. So sometimes discretion is called for in various ways that are hard to explain sometimes.

You are totally welcome here, and I think you'll see that this is a great place to discuss 2A rights!!!

:D

I'm always amused by this bit of 'wisdom' that is always tossed out when someone complains of censorship on a forum. Consider this:

A business is private property, which is open to the public - much like this forum. Does this give the business owner the right to walk around his property and tell all his 'visitors' what to do, when to talk, and what they may (not) say? Absolutely. Does that mean it is appropriate for that property owner to micromanage his guests' behavior? I don't think so.

M. Sage
04-17-2008, 10:04 PM
I'm always amused by this bit of 'wisdom' that is always tossed out when someone complains of censorship on a forum. Consider this:

A business is private property, which is open to the public - much like this forum. Does this give the business owner the right to walk around his property and tell all his 'visitors' what to do, when to talk, and what they may (not) say? Absolutely. Does that mean it is appropriate for that property owner to micromanage his guests' behavior? I don't think so.

Actually... a business owner does have that right. It wouldn't make for good customer service, no, but it would be well within his rights. As my father use to tell me "my roof, my rules." Kestryll's house, his rules.

In fact, business owners do regulate their employees' and guests' behavior to one degree or another, some are more strict than others to be sure. Movie theaters tell you to shut your yap and turn your cell phone and/or pager off (and no outside food/drinks, and.. and.. and..), is that going too far?

Everybody's got rights, and property rights are among them, remember.

I have to wonder if (and how) we're "micro-managing" users on this forum, though. If we are, it's pretty easy to do.

CA_Libertarian
04-17-2008, 10:27 PM
...

What I fail to understand is what is the end result they hope to accomplish by walking around Sacramento (and elsewhere) with an unloaded gun on their hip.......


I don't pretend to speak for anybody but myself. Here is my reason:

People don't think the right exists here in CA. The common myth is that only bad guys and cops carry guns. A lot of people think so narrowly that they believe only cops should have guns. By openly carrying and evangelizing about gun rights I combat these things that are the weapons people like the Brady bunch use against our rights. I demonstrate that 'normal' people can have guns too. At every opportunity I explain why we should all carry them.

I could probably get a permit to conceal if I applied. The sheriff here is pretty conservative, and I got a boat load of 'good cause.' However, I feel that asking permission to exercise a right adds to the legitimacy of the tyranny. You won't find me begging a bureaucrat and giving them my money to exercise any of my rights.

If it were to come down to it carrying unloaded (as is required most places I carry), I am delaying my response time by at least 2 seconds. Why do I accept that risk? Because I think my rights (and yours) are bigger than me. I couldn't in good conscience trample our collective rights just to potentially save my skin.

This is what I hope to accomplish: the education of the people of CA - 'civilians' and LEOs. Until we win back the minds of our brothers, we have little chance of winning back our rights.


I feel the need to include this disclaimer, as my philosophy sometimes offends others (something the mods don't take kindly to :D):

I don't hold it against those that disagree with me. If you have applied for and/or received a permission slip, that does not make you my de facto enemy. I don't expect everybody to embrace my values; hell half of you probably won't even understand what I'm talking about. Maybe you don't think the 'privilege' system erodes our rights and you sleep well at night. Naivety is forgivable, and I don't hold it against people.

CA_Libertarian
04-17-2008, 10:36 PM
Actually... a business owner does have that right. It wouldn't make for good customer service, no, but it would be well within his rights. As my father use to tell me "my roof, my rules." Kestryll's house, his rules.

In fact, business owners do regulate their employees' and guests' behavior to one degree or another, some are more strict than others to be sure. Movie theaters tell you to shut your yap and turn your cell phone and/or pager off (and no outside food/drinks, and.. and.. and..), is that going too far?

Everybody's got rights, and property rights are among them, remember.

I have to wonder if (and how) we're "micro-managing" users on this forum, though. If we are, it's pretty easy to do.

As I said in my previous post, that is absolutely the owner's right. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it. Pretty soon you lose customers and end up with a bad reputation.

There is a thin line between necessary censorship and just being a control freak. In a forum open to the public you better expect that people are going to get offended. Impose your sensitivities and values on me, and I get offended. Stifle diversity, or piss of the regulars... damned if you do, damned if you don't.

M. Sage
04-17-2008, 11:18 PM
There is a thin line between necessary censorship and just being a control freak. In a forum open to the public you better expect that people are going to get offended. Impose your sensitivities and values on me, and I get offended. Stifle diversity, or piss of the regulars... damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I agree with the first half, but don't feel that the second half has to be true. You can have diversity of opinions and keep the regulars happy.

There is a fine line between necessary censorship and being a control freak. Honestly, if I'd have thought that the Mods or Admins here were control freaks, I wouldn't have agreed to be one. I don't have time to be a control freak on the internet. I didn't get my (stupidly high) post count by editing and deleting posts. :p For the most part, I think that we all recognize that some people might take exception to things from time to time, hopefully they won't actually become offended, but like you said, not everybody is going to be pleased. But we do try our best, and IMO, we're pretty successful at it.

But you're welcome to disagree. If you see something that you feel is wrong, feel free to point it out, by all means.